[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by dougader

I read the story in the link, but where did it say the name of the officer that pulled the trigger?

It doesn't. I googled it like you did for a while figuring it was an urban legend. I found a cut and paste of a Bart Skelton article where he maes reference to Jordan having a "tragic" accident and that this was the basis for Jordan taking gun safety so seriously. I also found the same post from Pennie Rector, and reference to an article by Mike Venturino.

While any of these could be false, I could post a fake article supposedly by Bart Skelton, taking all three of these together it sounds like a true story. At this point, I believe it. I also think if it wasn't true, with all the various threads about it on the the internets, someone prominent would have stepped forward to address it at this point. If it wasn't true, any one of the current gunwriters could dispel it in a short article.

We have a well-known gun writer in my club. I see him now and then. I probably won't remember to aks him the next time I see him, and he's not exactly a warm and cuddly guy, but I might get a chance to ask him about it.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

It doesn't. Just as the White House doesn't have Obama's name on the mailbox out front, i.e., it's common knowledge.

It's not common knowledge. I have been reading, shooting, discussing, loading, everything with guns for 30 years and never heard it before.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

Maybe for the better since he killed a coworker in his office while goofing around:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_se.../rector_ja.xml

This article names the dead officer, but does not name the shooter.

[NMG26]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

To those who are smart enough to use Google.

Google?

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

It doesn't. I googled it like you did for a while figuring it was an urban legend. I found a cut and paste of a Bart Skelton article where he maes reference to Jordan having a "tragic" accident and that this was the basis for Jordan taking gun safety so seriously. I also found the same post from Pennie Rector, and reference to an article by Mike Venturino.

While any of these could be false, I could post a fake article supposedly by Bart Skelton, taking all three of these together it sounds like a true story. At this point, I believe it. I also think if it wasn't true, with all the various threads about it on the the internets, someone prominent would have stepped forward to address it at this point. If it wasn't true, any one of the current gunwriters could dispel it in a short article.

We have a well-known gun writer in my club. I see him now and then. I probably won't remember to aks him the next time I see him, and he's not exactly a warm and cuddly guy, but I might get a chance to ask him about it.

That sounds a bit like Massad Ayoob.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

That sounds a bit like Massad Ayoob.

No, it's not Mas. I'm not going to identify him since I don't have his permission to refer to any conversations I might have with him.

[dougader]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

That sounds a bit like Massad Ayoob.

Nah, Mas is a nice enough guy and he's quick to offer his insight, knowledge and opinion on most everything.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by dougader

Nah, Mas is a nice enough guy and he's quick to offer his insight, knowledge and opinion on most everything.

That's so very true.

[Mattkcc]

I get a kick out of the idea if the military can train with a 1911 why can't the cops. First off when the military carried them they were poorly trained getting far less practice then modern LEO's. I was in the Air Force Security Police and we carried 38 specials with terrible ammo. I was jealous of the Army MP's until I found out they were not allowed to chamber a round when they carried due to so many accidental discharges. I thought that was bad until I ran into some Marine security at a radar base in the Philippines they were not allowed to have a magazine in the gun even while on duty. Also, there have been cases where officer got shot because under stress they squeezed the trigger instead of thumbing the safety. A lot of the lessons learned in police worked were payed for in blood and the "KISS Principal"still applies today. If it wasn't for Glock many departments would still be carrying revolvers point and squeeze the trigger. Simple works especially under stress.

[4949shooter]

Originally Posted by Mattkcc

I get a kick out of the idea if the military can train with a 1911 why can't the cops. First off when the military carried them they were poorly trained getting far less practice then modern LEO's. I was in the Air Force Security Police and we carried 38 specials with terrible ammo. I was jealous of the Army MP's until I found out they were not allowed to chamber a round when they carried due to so many accidental discharges. I thought that was bad until I ran into some Marine security at a radar base in the Philippines they were not allowed to have a magazine in the gun even while on duty. Also, there have been cases where officer got shot because under stress they squeezed the trigger instead of thumbing the safety. A lot of the lessons learned in police worked were payed for in blood and the "KISS Principal"still applies today. If it wasn't for Glock many departments would still be carrying revolvers point and squeeze the trigger. Simple works especially under stress.

This is a truly informed post.

[BuckyP]

Originally Posted by happyguy

The sad thing is, you guys run down the average cop as being incapable of flicking off a safety and then you wonder why the guy on patrol regards you pencil pushers with disdain.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

While you can train someone to flick the safety off under normal circumstances, what about while under pressure? I've seen guys shoot on a somewhat regular basis with a 1911, much more than the average police officer, to include many draws, reloads, etc. Take these guys to their first IPSC match, and more often than not, the adrenaline will kick up and they will miss the safety on at least one stage. Now compare that adrenaline rush to a OIS and the "potential" for that becomes much greater.

[ChiefWPD]

Originally Posted by Mattkcc

I get a kick out of the idea if the military can train with a 1911 why can't the cops. First off when the military carried them they were poorly trained getting far less practice then modern LEO's. I was in the Air Force Security Police and we carried 38 specials with terrible ammo. I was jealous of the Army MP's until I found out they were not allowed to chamber a round when they carried due to so many accidental discharges. I thought that was bad until I ran into some Marine security at a radar base in the Philippines they were not allowed to have a magazine in the gun even while on duty. Also, there have been cases where officer got shot because under stress they squeezed the trigger instead of thumbing the safety. A lot of the lessons learned in police worked were payed for in blood and the "KISS Principal"still applies today. If it wasn't for Glock many departments would still be carrying revolvers point and squeeze the trigger. Simple works especially under stress.

+1 Well put.

[ComeAndGetThem]

It is amusing to me how when the Glock came out, many people said "carrying a sidearm WITHOUT a manual safety is dangerous." A generation later, people are saying "carrying a sidearm WITH a manual safety is dangerous."

Please!

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by ComeAndGetThem

It is amusing to me how when the Glock came out, many people said "carrying a sidearm WITHOUT a manual safety is dangerous." A generation later, people are saying "carrying a sidearm WITH a manual safety is dangerous."

Please!

I still can't believe that the handgun ever became popular. Look at i's history . Take the Civil War as an example. Those people, for the most part, had to actually remember to COCK their pistols before they fired. How did they manage to do that After all, they certainly weren't s smart as us, they didn't even have any computers How did thy ever get round to killing each other with such a complicated problem?

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by countrygun

How did thy ever get round to killing each other with such a complicated problem?

Mostly, they stabbed or beat each other to death, mostly.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by 4949shooter

This is a truly informed post.

Plenty of burned traffic stripes from the squeeze-cocker days

[4949shooter]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

Plenty of burned traffic stripes from the squeeze-cocker days

Lol...

[rustytxrx]

In defense of LEOs not carring a 1911.

Every Monday during daylight savings time, I have shot a NMC hardball match for the last 12 years. I think that makes me a 1911 shooter.

I also shoot a number of practical pistol matchs during the year (last year I shot just under 5 cases of 9mm). I personally find the Glock G34 easier to use in the matches. It is not that I can't shoot a 1911, it is that in a run a gun situation the G34 runs quicker and more efficiently for me than a 1911.

Hmmmm I don't think I remember a 1911 ever coming in high score at nationals.

[rustytxrx]

I also shoot a sig p226 DAK in a few IDPA matches (40 cal). If I was a LEO and could select my service side arm....that would be my selection

You can notice from the barrel in the ejection port the pistol has ran a number of rounds thru it.

Never been a Leo nor trained as one. I have taken 3 combat course. Mostly because enjoy shooting

[rustytxrx]

New grips and magwell with +2 mags can not be used in IDPA match

BTW the DAK is double action only. No safety

[rustytxrx]

ULVER, ChiefWPD, I enjoyed your thoughts and comments.

I shoot many more rounds a year then the average LEO. I shoot in some matches with some LEOs and SWAT guys. Most of then shoot their service pistol and ammo. A number of then will pin your ears back least you bring your A game. Of course I was my age as an excuse when needed.

The Sig DAK is capable of gun fighting accuracy at 50 ft. I will certainly admit that your shoot slower at distance to keep the group together. If I thought my threat would be at 50 yds, I would carry a DA/SA or SA.

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by rustytxrx

Hmmmm I don't think I remember a 1911 ever coming in high score at nationals.

Certainly you're old enough that you had your tongue in your cheek when you said that?

With most competitions (games) being geared towards mag capacity these days is it a surprise that the 1911 is at a disadvantage?

If the competition was geared with more points for precision...well.....

I would also point out that high cap SA/DA pistols have done quite well, and, after the first shot, you are essentially shooting a single action auto.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by ComeAndGetThem

It is amusing to me how when the Glock came out, many people said "carrying a sidearm WITHOUT a manual safety is dangerous." A generation later, people are saying "carrying a sidearm WITH a manual safety is dangerous."

Please!

You got that right, sir!

[rustytxrx]

Originally Posted by countrygun

Certainly you're old enough that you had your tongue in your cheek when you said that?

With most competitions (games) being geared towards mag capacity these days is it a surprise that the 1911 is at a disadvantage?

If the competition was geared with more points for precision...well.....

I would also point out that high cap SA/DA pistols have done quite well, and, after the first shot, you are essentially shooting a single action auto.

No Sir. This is a competition. The rules set power factors. The 1911 45 acp will NEVER hang with a 9mm and its rabbit poot power factor. The DA/SA does not seem to make the grade to the top. You can fix the Glock trigger so the SA have no advantage. Just no way that I see a 1911 single stack can drive fast enough to make up for the 10 + 1 glock drivers can run


http://www.idpa.com/blog/?tag=/2013-IDPA-Nationals

Sorry
Robert Vogel and his Glock G34 is a force.

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by rustytxrx

No Sir. This is a competition. The rules set power factors. The 1911 45 acp will NEVER hang with a 9mm and its rabbit poot power factor. The DA/SA does not seem to make the grade to the top. You can fix the Glock trigger so the SA have no advantage. Just no way that I see a 1911 single stack can drive fast enough to make up for the 10 + 1 glock drivers can run


http://www.idpa.com/blog/?tag=/2013-IDPA-Nationals

Sorry
Robert Vogel and his Glock G34 is a force.

A can't wait until the "practical" shooters rediscover the old .22 short.