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Old 03-08-2013, 13:31   #1
ULVER
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Elmer Keith & Col. Jeff Cooper On Guns & Ammo For Police! lol!

Years ago, when people still put pen to paper, I used to correspond with all the classic names. Legends Elmer Keith and Col. Jeff Cooper were two.

On the subject of police weapons and loads, looking back it was kinda funny.

Elmer believed the ultimate police weapon was the S&W model-57 in .41 Magum. He liked the original police load of a 200gr. SWC @ 900fps, but when the police load was "warmed-up" to 210-grains @ 1,150 he kinda liked it. No over-penetration there!

"Better for shooting into the car, of fleeing bank robbers." Like a 1934 Ford with Bonnie & Clyde inside?

Col. Cooper believed every cop should carry a cocked & locked Colt .45 ACP, with military FMJ. I was constantly reminded, "it "knocks 'em down 90% of the time with one shot." "The 9mm was useless, and one of the reasons the Germans lost the war." K...

Thoughts>?

I told him once, that one PD used "stake-out squads" to curb robberies. Boy, did it ever! Usually with fatal results. The gun was the M2 carbine with & 110gr. soft-points.

Jeffco thought Thompson subs would be better, and they were around on the surplus market to law enforcement. Load of course: FMJ. The 90% thing and all that.

The shotgun was also a good choice. He liked the 12-gauge (Ithaca IIRC) and 3-inch magnum, 00 buckshot. Perfect choices for crowded "non & pop" groceries, or a a 7-11 on a Saturday night!
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Old 03-08-2013, 14:05   #2
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:22   #3
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I think anything Cooper and Keith had to say about handgun design and carry, bullet weight, caliber and velocity, and fight-stopping power would be interesting and informative. Jeff Cooper's commentaries, which he continued to write until his death in 2006, are available online. They are filled with gems and he was very aware of the then-latest in handgun invention and bullet design, which includes most of what we have now. Just as an example, cruise through his comments on the development of the 10mm and its subsequent incarnation in the .40 S&W.

You would do us all a great service if you would reduce the best correspondence to, for example, a blog or a long post on this forum. If you need help transcribing, I'll bet there would be volunteers.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:23   #4
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
While the steel is thinner these days, it is much stronger. FD's are having to upgrade their cutting equiment to cut through the new cars.

I'm surprised both of them didn't just recommend 88 Magnums. Did they think Bill Jordan was a sissy for liking the 357 Mag?
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:30   #5
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When the IPSC Nationals were held in Virginia Beach in the early '80's, I spent the better part of an afternoon setting in a trailer with Jeff Cooper discussing...of all things...the history and use of the sword in battle. (He had a strong interest in the blade) That was the year he pronounced to the shooting world the greatness of the D&D "Bren Ten". I got to shoot a sample he had, but in .45acp. MHO was that it was kind of a "clunk". The Col. was, if nothing else, opinionated.
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Old 03-09-2013, 05:01   #6
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Frank Hamer went with a .38 Super during his pursuit of Bonnie and Clyde.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:54   #7
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The stats Jeff Cooper quoted for 230 grain hardball perhaps took into account proper shot placement. I really miss these quys.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:27   #8
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Frank Hamer went with a .38 Super during his pursuit of Bonnie and Clyde.

But a Remington 8 rifle to kill them.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:31   #9
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But a Remington 8 rifle to kill them.
Yep. And a deputy with a BAR.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:35   #10
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My brush with such things was getting to know Col. Rex Applegate. (I have all of his books inscribed to me) . Spending time with him was interesting. He could pull out something from his personal experience that was relevant to almost any topic. Like Cooper, he was "opinionated".
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:50   #11
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Yep. And a deputy with a BAR.

And various other deputies with shotguns + other serious hardware.


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Old 03-09-2013, 11:07   #12
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And various other deputies with shotguns + other serious hardware.


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Old 03-09-2013, 11:30   #13
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The stats Jeff Cooper quoted for 230 grain hardball perhaps took into account proper shot placement. I really miss these quys.

Yep, me too amigo !

I've never had a problem with harball. Still carry it a good deal of the time in the M1911 'when in town.' The FP's are best.


Take care my friend !




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Old 03-09-2013, 14:08   #14
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One of the proudest days of my life was accepting my E ticket and a handshake from Col. Cooper. Spend a week under his tutelage and you will come to know just how high you can achieve.

He was a truly intimidating man, and did not suffer fools or duffers easily. He sought excellence in everything and everyone.
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Old 03-09-2013, 14:18   #15
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Well, it's one thing to toss out recommendations when you have no responsibility as to their end results.

Equipping large numbers of law officers who are occasional firearms users, often indifferent to their weapons as well, with heavy recoiling (.41 mag) or complex weapons systems (1911 pistols) just doesn't work out in the real world.
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Old 03-09-2013, 15:39   #16
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Gosh, maybe there should be something like, oh, standards that an officer should have to achieve and maintain with regard to firearm proficiency...

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Old 03-09-2013, 15:59   #17
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Jim Cirillo had much to say about modern day gunfighting.

So did Bill Jordan.

Them along with Keith and Cooper all saw the elephant and lived to tell the tails.

One can learn much from reading their writings.

Regards,

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P.S. If it's not a .357 then it better have a 4 as the first number.
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:47   #18
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Originally Posted by ChiefWPD View Post
Well, it's one thing to toss out recommendations when you have no responsibility as to their end results.

Equipping large numbers of law officers who are occasional firearms users, often indifferent to their weapons as well, with heavy recoiling (.41 mag) or complex weapons systems (1911 pistols) just doesn't work out in the real world.
M1911 a complex weapon system ! Please man come on.

Maybe to the not so well trained cop/civilian. But Not to me or those I know who carry them, including my cop realitives and those in SVU, and one a girl, my neice. Pull, flick off a slide safety, and shoot, in one fluid motion. Cocked and locked. I shoot it as fast 'and on point of aim', as I can a Glock.

I see nothing complex about a M1911... Perhaps I misunderstood ya!

And I am not trying to argue with ya, not at all, just never heard anyone call it a complex gun/system !


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Old 03-10-2013, 10:34   #19
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I will clarify my words. For intensely interested individuals (people who will take proper training and regularly practice -under supervision of a professional instructor-) or police or special ops personnel who are under supervision, take regular sophisticated training and have a good support structure should their sidearms need servicing, then the 1911 platform is fine.

I've had to deal with training thousands of less than interested police officers (I served in the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Unit). That's one of the reasons the dept went to handguns such as the Glock, with its "safe-action."

It's simple to say "give 'em more training." The problem is, you have a finite training budget, for all purposes. Administrators have to come up with practical and task specific tools (sidearms and related equipment) that will work for the majority of the personnel they're training.

The decision is not emotional, based on what the administrator "likes," but rather on empirical observations, field proven designs and how their personnel will likely respond to the equipment authorized them.

Once you have a responsibility for such decisions your outlook changes. Firearms, regardless of how much you enjoy them, become a tool, to be carefully chosen for use by large numbers of people who hold no interest in them.

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:41   #20
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I will clarify my words. For intensely interested individuals (people who will take proper training and regularly practice -under supervision of a professional instructor-) or police or special ops personnel who are under supervision, take regular sophisticated training and have a good support structure should their sidearms need servicing, then the 1911 platform is fine.

I've had to deal with training thousands of less than interested police officers (I served in the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Unit). That's one of the reasons the dept went to handguns such as the Glock, with its "safe-action."

It's simple to say "give 'em more training." The problem is, you have a finite training budget, for all purposes. Administrators have to come up with practical and task specific tools (sidearms and related equipment) that will work for the majority of the personnel they're training.

The decision is not emotional, based on what the administrator "likes," but rather on empirical observations, field proven designs and how their personnel will likely respond to the equipment authorized them.

Once you have a responsibility for such decisions your outlook changes. Firearms, regardless of how much you enjoy them, become a tool, to be carefully chosen for use by large numbers of people who hold no interest in them.

People are responsible for making their own choices in life. If a police officer is issued a 1911 and is so indifferent to its operation that he can't use it in a life and death situation, he has made a bad choice.

There is nothing wrong with a 1911 that accepting personal responsibility won't cure.

Edit: Flicking off a thumb safety and pulling a trigger are about on par as far a complexity goes, IMHO.

Additional edit: It isn't training that is lacking, it's motivation and practice.

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:56   #21
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I have got to go with the Chief here. Having experienced what he is talking about, it would indeed not make me feel good at all to send someone out on the street wearing a 1911 if they only had the level of training that many of them "get by with" on the Glock.

It isn't perfect world, cops are not generally gunfighters and many of them are less familiar with their weapons than many of us, bitten by the gun bug, were as teenagers.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:18   #22
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If the NYPD academy is an example of what the modern recruit is undergoing in training I don't think it is insufficient. Thirteen days of training ought to be enough to learn to push down on a safety lever. We send soldiers into combat zones with less training.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:44   #23
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Perhaps the following situation will help explain both my position and the need to carefully evaluate the needs and abilities of those people receiving the training.

The Firearms and Tactics Section became embroiled in a “dispute” with the department's Emergency Services Unit (sort of our SWAT team, but those guys did lots more than a “normal” SWAT unit). This was during the mid-1980s. Our commanding officer, a great guy named Frank McGee (I learned a heck of a lot from Frank), was also pretty ridged. The ESU guys wanted to go to 9mm pistols. Frank was against it. His reasoning was, if the line officers saw that the ESU guys had “special” handguns, they’d feel their sidearms were inferior (at the time the primary handgun used was the S&W model 10).

The ESU guy heading up the charge for 9mms was Dominic. Nice guy, he wasn’t a professional firearms instructor but rather an intensely interested hobbyist. ESU eventually won the fight and they got to carry Beretta 92s (with FMJ rounds. No, I won’t get into a discussion on that here!).

Dominic came under the spell of the Beretta salesman. The department was using a submachine gun at the time we purchased from S&W, their model 76. Looked sort of like a Karl Gustaf. A good, reliable, simple to operate piece of machinery.

Dominic was sold on the Beretta model 12. Much sexier looking than the S&W 76.

ESU buys some. Not long after they start having a problem with unintentional discharges. Never had a problem before with their S&W sub-guns. What happened? Well, the Beretta 12 had the same ergonomic flaw the HK P7 series had; you had to depress a mechanism on the front of the grip (a safety with the Beretta) prior to discharging the piece. When you compress (bring rearward) your hand’s fingers there is a natural tendency for ALL the fingers to come back. If your finger happened to be on the trigger at the time, the gun would go off.

Yes, you can rail about all those dopes had to do was to learn to keep their fingers off the trigger until they were on target. Swell. When dealing with thousands of people being trained you must train to the weakest link. And the weakest link was having accidental discharges!

The Beretta 12s were pulled and S&W 76 went back into the ESU trucks. Eventually the department went to the HK MP5.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:47   #24
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Quote:
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If the NYPD academy is an example of what the modern recruit is undergoing in training I don't think it is insufficient. Thirteen days of training ought to be enough to learn to push down on a safety lever. We send soldiers into combat zones with less training.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
I assure you, the level of training given to both incoming officers as well as those already in the field would be woefully inadequate for issuance of the 1911 platform. Beside which, why would you issue a seven round magazine capacity handgun to officers when perfectly suitable fifteen round magazine capacity handguns are available?
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:00   #25
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You guys might find this interesting. It's from a book I just wrote (Practical Handgun Training). It's how the issuing of an untested piece of equipment can cause unintended problems!

***

One example of the consequences of an error stands out in my mind. For a period of time department members were authorized to wear black leather jackets. Although the department members liked the jacket, the political hierarchy of the department was concerned over image and decided a more benign look was appropriate. Thus a modern, blue nylon insulated jacket was procured and put out on the street. What could possibly go wrong with that?

During this period reports started to come in from officers in the field indicating they were finding their revolvers (yes, it was a long time ago…) cocked in their holsters. Understand, during this time in the department's history, officers wore a very old holster design which had an open top, their revolvers being kept in place by an internal leather piece pushed aside by the shooters’ thumb as they withdrew the handgun. Remarkably, few if any revolvers were snatched from our officers possession when this holster was in use.

Ranking members of the department, safe behind their bullet-proof desks and seeing these reports of cocked handguns in holsters come in, dismissed them as somehow being the fault of the patrol officers nervously toying with their revolvers hammers. But the reports continued, and increased, from all parts of the city. Something was going on.

Well, the jackets had been put out without any prior testing (issuing articles of clothing were the responsibility of the Equipment Section, not the FTS!). It turned out that the zipper tabs on the new jackets had a large hole in them. From time to time a tab would find itself atop the open holsters the officers wore and, on occasion, the hole in the tab would permit the hammer spur to enter and catch. When the officer jerked on his jacket, their revolver’s hammer would sometimes become cocked!

The fix was to order thirty plus thousand little plastic snaps to go through the holes in the zipper tabs and make sure newly ordered jackets had modified zippers. The point of this story is, there was a reason the FTS found the thorough testing of equipment prior to general issue to be so important. And why, as a firearms user or instructor, you should not be overly quick to adopt some newly introduced firearm or piece of equipment until such time as you can be assured that all the kinks have been worked out!
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