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Old 09-08-2011, 11:13   #1
right stuff
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Loading 230 gr Hornady HAP for the 45 GAP

I tried posting this on the Bull Dawgs group to no avail so I thought more response might be had from the general reloading pop.

I'm interested in loading these...

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.451-230-GR-HAP/

...for my G37 using Unique and CCI 500. I have a Lyman and a Hornady manual (nothing on GAP in Hornady). The closest thing I could find was a recipe in the Lyman manual for 230 TMJ, starting at 4.4 gr Universal, Winchester WSP primers, and 1.135 COL (almost up to the nominal 1.137 for the round). Tried scouring the internet and can't seem to come up with anything better.

It seems that Universal and Unique are similar powders, but I don't want t be too presumptuous as I understand that 45 GAP is sensitive to overpressure when using 230 gr bullets.

Any thoughts on where I might find a good starting point for this load?

Thanks.
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Old 09-08-2011, 13:27   #2
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Lyman suggests seven different powders, and Unique is not one of them. Stick with their suggestions.
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Old 09-08-2011, 13:53   #3
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While it is my absolute policy to NOT give out any load specs in public, I will say that I do not care for 230 gr bullets in the .45 GAP. IMHO, it defeats the purpose of the round. Many will argue this and they can. I would suggest that you call Speer and discuss what you are doing with them, or even Hornady and see what they say before I loaded anything over a 200gr bullet in .45 GAP.

Just my humble .02, and it's worth exactly what you paid for my suggestion.
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Old 09-08-2011, 15:33   #4
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Thanks for the replies guys. To clarify, I understand the issues with home baked load data and that's not what I'm looking for. I'm just posing the question to see if anyone out there knows of other valid data sources for this round where I might look. I agree that Lyman is not showing data for Unique and its similarity with Universal is not a green light to substitute. There may be some valid reason for them to have excluded Unique from their tests. Unique is not totally out for GAP as Alliant gives load data for this combo, just not in 230 gr.

There is a definite precedent for such a load as we have known published data for 230 gr GAP loads and various commercially available 230 gr rounds in both FMJ and JHP.

Tpro, Can you expand on your reasoning that 230 gr bullets defeat the purpose of the GAP round? It is my understanding that the 230 grainers were not in the initial scope for this round (initial tests included 185 and 200 gr), but it was later validly established that the GAP could in fact be loaded in 230 gr.

I'm going to pose the question to Speer and Hornady, maybe even Lyman. I'll post a reply to this thread if I hear anything back.
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Old 09-08-2011, 15:58   #5
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Just thinking out loud.....

Unique is bulky, 230gr GAP does not have much case volume. May be an issue.
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Old 09-08-2011, 16:14   #6
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Yep, that is likely the "valid reason" that Lyman had for not testing it. Although I have heard of others using Unique with 230 grainers in the GAP; not sure how they came up with their loads though. I may end up having to break down and buy some more powder.

Last edited by right stuff; 09-08-2011 at 16:16..
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Old 09-08-2011, 16:28   #7
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Another thought on this is that the issue of bulkiness of Unique may be compounded by the larger round while trying to keep the overall length down in the acceptable range.

According to Wikipedia:

"Since the .45 GAP has a much smaller cartridge volume than the .45 ACP, the desired pressure and resulting velocity needed to be achieved through powder selection alone."

I'm not sure what the source for this statement is, but it seems to make sense.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by right stuff View Post
Thanks for the replies guys. To clarify, I understand the issues with home baked load data and that's not what I'm looking for. I'm just posing the question to see if anyone out there knows of other valid data sources for this round where I might look. I agree that Lyman is not showing data for Unique and its similarity with Universal is not a green light to substitute. There may be some valid reason for them to have excluded Unique from their tests. Unique is not totally out for GAP as Alliant gives load data for this combo, just not in 230 gr.

There is a definite precedent for such a load as we have known published data for 230 gr GAP loads and various commercially available 230 gr rounds in both FMJ and JHP.

Tpro, Can you expand on your reasoning that 230 gr bullets defeat the purpose of the GAP round? It is my understanding that the 230 grainers were not in the initial scope for this round (initial tests included 185 and 200 gr), but it was later validly established that the GAP could in fact be loaded in 230 gr.

I'm going to pose the question to Speer and Hornady, maybe even Lyman. I'll post a reply to this thread if I hear anything back.
My understanding is the GAP was not developed for that heavy of a bullet. It needs more velocity. I shoot and reload and carry .45 GAP. Before I sell a CC Glock I try and get the customedr to come out and shoot some of what I have. And I've sold plenty of 39's this way. Some people don't want to wait, or go to the net and think they know it all and they go somewhere else. Anyway, I'm from the school of big, light bullets that have velocity in the 950 fps plus range. I don't think you canget 800 fps with a 230 in 45 GAP because the case is small. That said, you can use an UBERfast powder (thank's Fred...I love that phrase) like Tite Group, that has a very low volume and get the velocity up but you DAM sure better take it slow and make sure you don't KaBoom your face and hands off.

I also think you should call Speer (or somebody, maybe a powder company, Hornady IDK, but I have found people in the biz to be exceptionally helpful in this area) and discuss this issue with them and see what they say. I may be smokin' the crack pipe and be totally wrong here. I still think the web is about the last place to find intellegent info when you can tell we are not sure.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:37   #9
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Didn't see you are from PDX. Heck, that's my old stompin grounds....
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Old 09-09-2011, 14:32   #10
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Yep, PDX. Interesting place... I'm actually out on the west side in WA county, but it says PDX on my mail.

The Lyman recipes for 230 FMJ maxed out around 900 fps. That being said, everyone has their preferences. There is certainly nothing wrong with a 200 gr .45 bullet going 950+. Certainly ruins the day of any object it comes in contact with. I guess I'm just interested to see what a big, heavy, and slow bullet will do, but I digress.

This all goes back the question of the Hornady HAP, which only comes in 230 gr for 45 cal. Although this is a JHP bullet, it is strictly intended for range/target/competition. I used them in 9mm and found them to be extremely accurate, thus came the interest in loading them for my G37.

If I find they work well at the range, it would be a small step to use the same loads with the Hornady XTP bullet. Ostensibly, the XTP and the HAP have the same internal and external ballistic characteristics and the same load data can be used for either bullet. I think it would be interesting to have a PD round that is modeled almost exactly the same as the practice ammo that one uses at the range.

I agree that talking to some manufacturers is worthwhile here. I'm reaching out to Hornady, Alliant, and Speer to see if they have anything to say about it.
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Old 09-09-2011, 15:28   #11
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I have been reloading 225gr Missouri Bullet Flathead bullets. They are a hardcast lead truncated cone bullet with about the same length as a 230gr hollowpoint. I have been using W231. I usually reserve Unique for bigger, slower moving cartridges like 44special and 45colt, but it has served me well in 45acp and 45autorim loads using heavier lead bullets.

The 225gr Flatheads work great, and so do the factory Winchester Ranger 230gr jhp bullets I often carry in my Glock 37. As you would expect, the 230gr bullets have a slightly higher point of impact than my other reload using a 200gr GDHP over W231. The hardcast lead is the most accurate loading, but I guess my point is that the 225gr Flathead is only slightly lighter than the 230gr HAP you are mentioning, and the Winchester Ranger ammo I carry is a 230gr jhp. I like the heavier bullets in the cartridge and find they perform very well. My W231 loads are nowhere near a compressed load, and the loads have the same OAL as the 230gr Winchester ammo. I have some Remington 230gr jhp bullets I'll be reloading this weekend. I hope you will post your results with the HAP's if you give them a try. I reload mainly lead, but the results would be interesting.

Good luck
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Old 03-11-2013, 16:49   #12
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Well it took a while but I finally got around to loading some of these 230 gr HAP boolits. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so I didn't have exactly the powder I was hoping for. I worked out from my research that I wanted to use Universal or Winchester 231 for this load. However, supplies in the local outlets have been non-existent. I came across a 1 lb bottle of Bullseye (it was just about the only thing other than black powder on a huge shelf that normally houses a pretty decent selection of powders at one of the local suppliers). This would have to do for now.

With no data to go on I started with the Alliant recipe for 45 Auto in 230 gr GDHP and reduced the charge by 90% then 90% again. This put me at a starting load of 4.0 grains. I set the bullet depth to the max overall length for the cartridge (1.137"). I worked up to 4.4 grains and found that it shot quite nicely at that load with zero signs of pressure. Sorry no chrono to report velocity.
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Old 03-11-2013, 17:00   #13
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Well it took a while but I finally got around to loading some of these 230 gr HAP boolits. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so I didn't have exactly the powder I was hoping for. I worked out from my research that I wanted to use Universal or Winchester 231 for this load. However, supplies in the local outlets have been non-existent. I came across a 1 lb bottle of Bullseye (it was just about the only thing other than black powder on a huge shelf that normally houses a pretty decent selection of powders at one of the local suppliers). This would have to do for now.

With no data to go on I started with the Alliant recipe for 45 Auto in 230 gr GDHP and reduced the charge by 90% then 90% again. This put me at a starting load of 4.0 grains. I set the bullet depth to the max overall length for the cartridge (1.137"). I worked up to 4.4 grains and found that it shot quite nicely at that load with zero signs of pressure. Sorry no chrono to report velocity.
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