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Old 03-08-2013, 00:44   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldMyHat View Post
I get that part. Not trying to frame anything. Most of the Law contained in the Protestant canon is in the Torah. I am going off of that. I am interested in the Jewish Scripture references for acceptable abortions. Not trying to argue it on a religious level, I am just curious. The online search I did only stated Rabbinical opinion and no Scripture references.
You dont understand what "Rabbinical opinon" is or how the Talmud works. To be blunt, you dont know what you are looking at and your only understanding of Judaism comes from a non Jewish perspective.

I couldnt explain it to you in the course of a few posts here anymore than I could teach you Chinese. (no to be condesending, you couldnt teach me Chinese in a few posts either...even if you were the worlds greatest expert on Chinese)

So instead of trying to answer a question you have asked with an answer that wouldnt make sense to you or satisfy the question you have asked, as best you can based on your understanding, I will simply answer it as we see it and would understand it if I was speaking with other mainstream traditional Jews.

Shemot 21:22 (what you would call Exodus)

כב וְכִי-יִנָּצוּ אֲנָשִׁים, וְנָגְפוּ אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ, וְלֹא יִהְיֶה, אָסוֹן--עָנוֹשׁ יֵעָנֵשׁ, כַּאֲשֶׁר יָשִׁית עָלָיו בַּעַל הָאִשָּׁה, וְנָתַן, בִּפְלִלִים

Which roughly translates:

And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].

From this, we learn that a fetus does not carry the weight of actual life.

Because of that, the Mishna teaches us in Ohalot 7:6

"If a woman suffers hard labor in great peril, the child (fetus) must be cut up in her womb and brought out limb by limb, for her life takes precedence over its life. If its greater part has already come forth, it must not be touched, for the [claim of one] life cannot supersede [that of another] life."

(the "greater part" would mean no partial birth abortions, once the child is "mostly" out, it has a claim to life equal to the mothers)

It gets even more complicated from there.
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Old 03-08-2013, 00:46   #202
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Originally Posted by jay29 View Post
We are talking before circa 70 AD Jews right?
No idea. Waiting on rabbi to respond. I'm not interested in debating the Jewish part of it. I just want the Scripture reference out of my own intrigue.
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Old 03-08-2013, 00:47   #203
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Originally Posted by jay29 View Post
I work at a hospital, in the OR, in upstate NY and that is a fact, pal. Part time job.
I dont doubt that, I never doubted that. That is not the issue.

You still fail to understand my point. You said you know what you are talking about because your work in an OR. I showed you that others who also work in an OR can disagree with you, thus you playing that card is not very strong or indicative of any truth, like you were trying to make it out to be.
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Old 03-08-2013, 00:50   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldMyHat View Post
No idea. Waiting on rabbi to respond. I'm not interested in debating the Jewish part of it. I just want the Scripture reference out of my own intrigue.
Again, what you consider scripture isnt what we would consider scripture. You have asked the question based on your understanding. It doesnt work that way...even if you believe otherwise, even if you are correct.

If Jews say Mishna is scripture...and you dont even know what that is and your faith says it is not...then you have asked the wrong question. You have to ask what Jewish scripture are you using. Even if you disagree with it or dont even accept it as scripture, the Jewish answer still is what it is.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 03-08-2013, 00:57   #205
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Not really.


Human life, means life.


A group of cells that will result in a life, does not mean life.

A baby exists and survives outside of the womb is a human life. A cell, or clump of cells that can not survive outside of the womb or a test tube, is not the same thing.
The Bible even supports the above definition.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:04   #206
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
You dont understand what "Rabbinical opinon" is or how the Talmud works. To be blunt, you dont know what you are looking at and your only understanding of Judaism comes from a non Jewish perspective.

I couldnt explain it to you in the course of a few posts here anymore than I could teach you Chinese. (no to be condesending, you couldnt teach me Chinese in a few posts either...even if you were the worlds greatest expert on Chinese)

So instead of trying to answer a question you have asked with an answer that wouldnt make sense to you or satisfy the question you have asked, as best you can based on your understanding, I will simply answer it as we see it and would understand it if I was speaking with other mainstream traditional Jews.

Shemot 21:22 (what you would call Exodus)

כב וְכִי-יִנָּצוּ אֲנָשִׁים, וְנָגְפוּ אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ, וְלֹא יִהְיֶה, אָסוֹן--עָנוֹשׁ יֵעָנֵשׁ, כַּאֲשֶׁר יָשִׁית עָלָיו בַּעַל הָאִשָּׁה, וְנָתַן, בִּפְלִלִים

Which roughly translates:

And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].

From this, we learn that a fetus does not carry the weight of actual life.

Because of that, the Mishna teaches us in Ohalot 7:6

"If a woman suffers hard labor in great peril, the child (fetus) must be cut up in her womb and brought out limb by limb, for her life takes precedence over its life. If its greater part has already come forth, it must not be touched, for the [claim of one] life cannot supersede [that of another] life."

(the "greater part" would mean no partial birth abortions, once the child is "mostly" out, it has a claim to life equal to the mothers)

It gets even more complicated from there.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am not completely in the dark on Judaism in Biblical times. Our pastors spend a lot of time contextualizing Scripture to the time it was written to increase accuracy. That said, I know enough to know that I don't know enough. Lol.

Here is your Chinese lesson.
Small horse - tai ni po ni
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:10   #207
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Again, what you consider scripture isnt what we would consider scripture. You have asked the question based on your understanding. It doesnt work that way...even if you believe otherwise, even if you are correct.

If Jews say Mishna is scripture...and you dont even know what that is and your faith says it is not...then you have asked the wrong question. You have to ask what Jewish scripture are you using. Even if you disagree with it or dont even accept it as scripture, the Jewish answer still is what it is.
I agree. I hadn't refreshed to see your response before posting. If I am asking a Jew for Scripture references, it is from their Bible, not the Protestant cannon. And to echo myself, wasn't trying to debate the Jewish position, just interested in the reference material.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:11   #208
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Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

Rabbi, do you adhere to this?
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:11   #209
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
What are liberal/leftist ideas that you are sympathetic to or at least can understand why a lot of people think it is a good idea? (and why?)

That doest mean you agree or support it (of course it could mean that) It simply means what I asked. What are some of the ideals of liberalism/ left leaning thought that you get?

For example. I am sympathetic to gay marriage.


Given the things said around here, I know plenty of you are sympathetic to price controls, unions, wage caps, socialized medicine...and a lot of other issues.

So, who is first?
I'm all for gay marriage !
I mean, hey, if a gay man wants to marry a gay woman.
Or, visa versa.
If a gay woman wants to marry a gay man.
I'm fine with that, and I think most religious groups would be too !


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Old 03-08-2013, 01:16   #210
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Rabbi, do you adhere to this?
I don't see this as a place to challenge ones opinions on your faith. We were only discussing his view on his faith. Not our opposing viewpoints.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:16   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Rabbi, do you adhere to this?
No, because that is not what it says. That is what anti-semites say it says in order to prove (a lie) about Judaism.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:47   #212
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Man. I skipped ten pages of reading and this is where I end up. So what age is a good starting point for being willing to sacrifice your life for your child? I believe that both I and my wife would give our lives for one of our children why is a three month old fetus any different.

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Old 03-08-2013, 03:08   #213
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
What are liberal/leftist ideas that you are sympathetic to or at least can understand why a lot of people think it is a good idea? (and why?)

That doest mean you agree or support it (of course it could mean that) It simply means what I asked. What are some of the ideals of liberalism/ left leaning thought that you get?

For example. I am sympathetic to gay marriage.


Given the things said around here, I know plenty of you are sympathetic to price controls, unions, wage caps, socialized medicine...and a lot of other issues.

So, who is first?
I seem to agree with the "left" mostly on "FREE TRADE" not being free. I like George Bush and company, but he would tick me off when he talked about "FREE TRADE". We were/are getting clobbered by other countries not playing fair while we mostly pretend the world is a fair place. This is one place where I do stray from the conservative dogma.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:58   #214
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I can understand every and identify every point made by leftists. I agree with few to none. I'd say the majority of their points are based on emotion and feelings, which I have, and I, therefore understand where they are coming from, but my brain using logic and forward thinking do not let me agree.

That's why everyone says communism sounds good on paper. Because it does! It sounds great. It would feel great to be able to know that my fellow man has my back, that he will work as much as I do, that we will all prosper together...but then my brain kicks in.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:28   #215
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Originally Posted by ilgunguygt View Post
Once again, you show an amazing ability to completely miss the point and come out of left field with an incredibly idiotic statement.

That one is almost as good as "People who love thier pets are responsible for the violence in America."

One thing for sure, you dont disappoint with the garbage that drivels from your keyboard.
So, you have nothing of worth to say other than invective? Have an intellectual point if that is possible, please.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:32   #216
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Originally Posted by RonS View Post
The constitution prohibits the Federal Government from establishing an official church. It also prohibits that same government from stopping people practicing their religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

or abridging the freedom of speech,

or of the press;

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,

and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is not a single part of that amendment that has not already been taken away except establishing a national church. Once Obama gets deified we can write that off too.
All good points. However, the United States does have a National Church. There is a Cathedral in Washington, D.C. owned and operated by the United States government, and it is Catholic.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:33   #217
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Like I said earlier, I don't see how legally something that's not an individual can have individual rights. If it can't survive separate from the mother it doesn't have the ability to live, much less the right. It's part of a person who does have individual rights. The mother has rights, the fetus doesn't.
A newborn could be fair game for killing then, right? It's not going to survive without its mother or other other adult, so it therefore has no rights, correct? Good to go to kill it?
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:36   #218
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
And you should do it, with your money. Putting a gun to someone's head and forcing them to do it is evil.

Evil? Nah, I don't agree with that. A gun to the head, a little over dramatic. However, you've hit on a part of the problem. The more the government forces us to pay in taxes the less there is to donate voluntarily.

We could use itemized taxes. Rather than pay the "take care of the less fortunate" tax we could opt to pay that portion directly to a soup kitchen, a church or a job training center.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:44   #219
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Not really.


Human life, means life.


A group of cells that will result in a life, does not mean life.

A baby exists and survives outside of the womb is a human life. A cell, or clump of cells that can not survive outside of the womb or a test tube, is not the same thing.
If you left that clump of cells alone without any human intervention and everything else is medically normal what happens after 9 months?
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:50   #220
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I dont doubt that, I never doubted that. That is not the issue.

You still fail to understand my point. You said you know what you are talking about because your work in an OR. I showed you that others who also work in an OR can disagree with you, thus you playing that card is not very strong or indicative of any truth, like you were trying to make it out to be.
When someone says a fetus that is removed via a D and C is not human has a mental disorder. I see the fetus myself in the specimen jar and it certainly looks human to me. It just doesn't have human rights says the SCOTUS.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:52   #221
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A newborn could be fair game for killing then, right? It's not going to survive without its mother or other other adult, so it therefore has no rights, correct? Good to go to kill it?
I have heard rumors about people pushing for "after birth" abortions. Even botched abortions where the baby survives it still has no rights. How deranged can humans be?
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:54   #222
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Gay marriage proponents have a political agenda: to force the public to accept an aberration of Nature as normal. I accept that they exist & in all likelihood are born that way. However, why is it that these same people who want me to accept a genetic aberration balk at accepting any other human predisposition for any other given group? Due
to their agenda they have selective reasoning.


Shame used to be a wonderful societal glue that induced people to adhere to social norms. Look at the society of today and then tell me straight faced that we're better off.
This is the face of the Republican party to the rest of 'us'.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:55   #223
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All good points. However, the United States does have a National Church. There is a Cathedral in Washington, D.C. owned and operated by the United States government, and it is Catholic.
Actually, its Episcopal, and makes a point to welcome all faiths. And, despite its name being the "Washington National Cathedral" it is not a national church nor is it federally funded. It WAS, however, declared our "National house of prayer" by Congress.

Get your **** straight before you post it.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:55   #224
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As I grow older, I have become more libertarian. This happened because I realized there isn't much difference between someone telling me I shouldn't have guns and someone telling someone else they can't do something(abortion, gay marriage, marijuana). I don't care if someone engages in these things, that is their decision to live with. Stay away from my money and guns and we'll be fine.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:01   #225
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I find murder more repugnant.
Agreed, women shouldn't have a right to their bodies nor the right to vote
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