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Old 03-07-2013, 23:18   #151
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No, the issue is not self sustainable but separately sustainable from an actual individual.
I can see the distinction in your argument. I do however feel that it's splitting hairs at that point and its a slippery slope.

But it's time to sleep.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:19   #152
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Like I said earlier, I don't see how legally something that's not an individual can have individual rights. If it can't survive separate from the mother it doesn't have the ability to live, much less the right. It's part of a person who does have individual rights. The mother has rights, the fetus doesn't.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:20   #153
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If the only way for an old person or toddler to survive is for us to cut open someone else and shove them inside then yes, I'd support euthanasia.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:23   #154
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Once the DNA of the parents combine, that glob of cells has the genetic code of a human... individual and unique.
I've always been against abortion, even during my heathen days.
Religion plays no part at all. Some of us can have respect for life without religion.
That is very encouraging.

I also feel that once people have children they realize that it was a person from the beginning. I see in my personal experience that people without kids are more liberal on abortion.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:32   #155
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If the only way for an old person or toddler to survive is for us to cut open someone else and shove them inside then yes, I'd support euthanasia.
What if a Siamese twin wants to separate from their sibbling at their siblings's demise? That person can't survive without being attached to the sibling. Is it okay then?
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:33   #156
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I can see the distinction in your argument. I do however feel that it's splitting hairs at that point and its a slippery slope.
I disagree, a fetus is not a biologically independent being. All the nutrition it receives is solely dependent on one specific person. Their circulatory systems are connected. Its oxygen and nutrient intake isn't assisted by the mother, it is the mother. It doesn't breathe or eat, all that comes directly into the blood stream from the mother. That's a clear distinction between a feeding tube into someone's stomach or a ventilation system.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:35   #157
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Once the DNA of the parents combine, that glob of cells has the genetic code of a human... individual and unique.
I've always been against abortion, even during my heathen days.
Religion plays no part at all. Some of us can have respect for life without religion.
Religion has nothing to do with me being against abortion either.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:36   #158
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None of them. Liberalism is a mental disorder.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:37   #159
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Religion has nothing to do with me being against abortion either.
I know people who are far from religious and see what abortion truly is. They see the pictures.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:41   #160
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What if a Siamese twin wants to separate from their sibbling at their siblings's demise? That person can't survive without being attached to the sibling. Is it okay then?
Legally? Yes. Obviously this would be done at birth. It's been done before.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:44   #161
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I heard on the TV that abortion is the crowning achievement of feminism. You got to be kidding me?????
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:45   #162
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Legally? Yes. Obviously this would be done at birth. It's been done before.
After birth abortions? That seems to be the new thing cropping up.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:45   #163
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Legally? Yes. Obviously this would be done at birth. It's been done before.
Well. Thanks for being consistent at least.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:45   #164
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Yes. But. If a child is a person at conception, then taking its life is a crime. It is killed for actions of another person that it had no control over. That would not be acceptable with a person after birth.

I also believe that scientifically that it is a person at conception. Like I said in my last post, the cells are living organisms that grow into the full term baby and they are the same cells and DNA at conception as at birth.
I dont agree. There is no amount of faith that YOU have that could get me to agree.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:47   #165
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I know people who are far from religious and see what abortion truly is. They see the pictures.
I think abortion is morally wrong in most cases but we should err on the side of liberty and I haven't seen a strong enough argument to prohibit a woman from deciding what to do with something that is biologically a part of her. I think once a child is developed enough to live separate from the mother then yeah, I can see how late term abortions should be illegal.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:47   #166
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I dont agree. There is no amount of faith that YOU have that could get me to agree.
Are you a true Rabbi?
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:49   #167
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I know people who are far from religious and see what abortion truly is. They see the pictures.
Many medical procedures are horrid, hell many natural things are horrid. A fetus dying in the womb of natural causes that must be remove can produce similar results(pictures), but is a very understandable procedure, even to fervent pro life people.

While I can have a reaction to horrid things, I will not let horrid alone make up my mind for me.
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I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:52   #168
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I think abortion is morally wrong in most cases but we should err on the side of liberty and I haven't seen a strong enough argument to prohibit a woman from deciding what to do with something that is biologically a part of her.
Women have been having abortions since the beginning. Since when is it ok to use tax payer funds for it? Since when do we have to have governmental regulations for it and the clinics?

Quote:
I think once a child is developed enough to live separate from the mother then yeah, I can see how late term abortions should be illegal.
To me it really doesn't matter. We all went through the abortion eligible stage and we all are humans from the beginning. Just because a court says we don't have civil rights before we are born that doesn't make us less human.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:52   #169
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I find murder more repugnant.
get over it, toots. there are 7 billion people on this planet now (real people, mind you, not zygotes, not half-developed fetuses) and it's not going to help anything to fill it with more unwanted, uncared for babies.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:52   #170
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After birth abortions? That seems to be the new thing cropping up.
Partial birth abortions were legal for a long time.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:52   #171
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Are you a true Rabbi?
What does that have to do with anything? (No, I am not, as I have been explaining here for almost a decade, but I have indeed been through the training)

BTW, (and I have already said this in this thread)if you are going to play that card, it is important to know that in traditional Judaism, abortion is allowed in certain cases. This is nothing new and has been a part of traditional Judaism for a few thousand years.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:54   #172
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After birth abortions? That seems to be the new thing cropping up.
No, not abortions, were talking about a complex medical situation where depending on the circumstances it may be best to have the twins surgically separated even if one is assumed to die in the process. In many cases this would be the most ethical thing to do. Google "parasitic twin" and tell me you disagree.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:56   #173
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Many medical procedures are horrid, hell many natural things are horrid. A fetus dying in the womb of natural causes that must be remove can produce similar results(pictures), but is a very understandable procedure, even to fervent pro life people.

While I can have a reaction to horrid things, I will not let horrid alone make up my mind for me.
I work in an Operating Room so I know what I am talking about. Yes, perioperative procedures are gruesome. When I see that unborn baby who died naturally in a suction tube after a D and C I don't need anyone to tell me it is not human.

Natural is one thing. Malicious human intervention is another thing.

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Old 03-07-2013, 23:58   #174
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What does that have to do with anything? (No, I am not, as I have been explaining here for almost a decade, but I have indeed been through the training)

BTW, (and I have already said this in this thread)if you are going to play that card, it is important to know that in traditional Judaism, abortion is allowed in certain cases. This is nothing new and has been a part of traditional Judaism for a few thousand years.
I know that Judaism has changed over time, but I don't recall where you might be getting that from. Is that in extrabiblical literature? I ask only out of intrigue.
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:59   #175
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What does that have to do with anything? (No, I am not, as I have been explaining here for almost a decade, but I have indeed been through the training)

BTW, (and I have already said this in this thread)if you are going to play that card, it is important to know that in traditional Judaism, abortion is allowed in certain cases. This is nothing new and has been a part of traditional Judaism for a few thousand years.
Wow. You jumped the shark! LOL. It wasn't a loaded question.lol
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