GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2013, 09:56   #251
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,167
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay29 View Post
If you left that clump of cells alone without any human intervention and everything else is medically normal what happens after 9 months?


Sometimes they make a baby.


Sometimes they don't
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 09:57   #252
ezthumper
Registered User
 
ezthumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post

If you look at 3rd world countries vs the USA, there is a lot of infrastructure that has been built by govt that helps make the USA successful.
This sounds like the "You did not build your business, someone else did"

The gov. can not create anything but debt and a mess.

The roads are paid by the citizens and built by the citizens...period. All innovations of better road materials, transportation, communications, bridges etc are developed by private businesses.

Thus the infrastructure is paid for by our taxes and built and innovated by private business.
ezthumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:05   #253
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldMyHat View Post
That is very encouraging.

I also feel that once people have children they realize that it was a person from the beginning. I see in my personal experience that people without kids are more liberal on abortion.
I have two of my own and a step son... and I still believe abortion is the right of the individual to choose from. It's up to their deity to pass judgment... not us.
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.

Last edited by Glock20 10mm; 03-08-2013 at 10:05..
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:06   #254
oneofthose
Senior Member
 
oneofthose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 744
There are a liberal issues that I am sympathetic to, right up to the point that I am expected to pay for it.

It seems to me, many liberal causes start based on the argument that people should be free to pursue, have, or do certain things. Then, it's realized that some people either can't afford it, or can't afford the resulting consequences.

Then I'm expected to fund a program that makes it affordable for everyone. That doesn't sound like freedom to me.
__________________
Eyes on the olive branch, arrows at the ready....
oneofthose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:08   #255
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay29 View Post
Women have been having abortions since the beginning. Since when is it ok to use tax payer funds for it? Since when do we have to have governmental regulations for it and the clinics?



To me it really doesn't matter. We all went through the abortion eligible stage and we all are humans from the beginning. Just because a court says we don't have civil rights before we are born that doesn't make us less human.
On the use of taxes I can agree. We shouldn't have to pay for those wanting an abortion the caveat being rape victims that had no say in whether they got impregnated or not.
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:10   #256
ezthumper
Registered User
 
ezthumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneofthose View Post
There are a liberal issues that I am sympathetic to, right up to the point that I am expected to pay for it.

It seems to me, many liberal causes start based on the argument that people should be free to pursue, have, or do certain things. Then, it's realized that some people either can't afford it, or can't afford the resulting consequences.

Then I'm expected to fund a program that makes it affordable for everyone. That doesn't sound like freedom to me.
The Left seems to push the "Free to pursue" bit, but from what I see, is that you are "Free to Pursue" what they allow you to pursue, with in the guidelines they dictate and how, and any lip will get you pummeled.

Last edited by ezthumper; 03-08-2013 at 10:11..
ezthumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:20   #257
Smithers
Senior Member
 
Smithers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
When arguments about the 2nd Amendment come up, a common (and completely appropriate!) point is made to use the Federalist Papers and other writings of the founders to expand and expound on the Constitution.

Does that only apply to issues involving the 2nd Amendment?
Have you stopped beating your wife ?

Expand and expound all you want regarding "Separation of church and state".

It's still not in the Constitution.
Smithers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:24   #258
Smithers
Senior Member
 
Smithers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rambo View Post
Make no mistake, Constitutionalists and pro freedom/liberty folk are the minority on this site. Outside of the 2nd amendment, most folk here don't care for the constitution or those pesky rights and civil liberties. Just their own flavor of a dictatorship.
I noticed that and was/am a bit surprised.

Well, I figure our slide started around 1959 and hasn't stopped. Indeed, it's accelerating and getting worse.

Too bad doesn't quite cover it.
Smithers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:25   #259
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay29 View Post
I pay enough for them in taxes and that is a foolish argument. Either let the woman destroy her pregnancy or I should be forced to adopt it. Dumb argument.
No, not really because here are the options for the wee lil' tyke that was forced into living a life he/she didn't choose.

- Become a ward of the state, that's great another robot that can be programed by the man. A great way to undermine free thinking and critical thinking. But not only that... a tax burden on society.

OR

- Grow up involved in gangs, drugs and violence. Which leads to a life of crime. Again a burden on society as well as a threat.

OR

- Grow up neglected and abused by an unloving / ungrateful mother. One that is probably hateful of her off-spring because she was forced (against her will, great exercise of personal freedom and liberty there!) to keep said child.

OR

- A very, VERY small percentage actually manage to rise above and become productive members in society.

Great choices there!
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:51   #260
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaGun View Post
WOW!

I see that GT is infested with Liberals.

You people want to drag "marrage" through the dirt with gay marrage, Allow people to kill other humans freely (abortion). Just ask your self this, When did you become a "human"? Were you, "You", immediately after inception? In the 2nd trimester? 3rd trimester? Or would it be "OK" to kill you 5 mins before birth?

Place your self in the position of the fetus, and it will correct your perspective on this issue.
If we were in the position of the fetus then we would be incapable of higher thought processing that is required to comprehend the simple concept of life, death and so forth.
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:58   #261
ClydeG19
Senior Member
 
ClydeG19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 6,954


For me...there's no reason that gay people should not be able to have some sort of legal union. Each state should be able to make up their own collective mind however and leave the fed out of it. I think the same way about marijuana. It's silly that it's still illegal.

Regardless of anyone's feelings on abortion, Roe v Wade is the law of the land. It's pointless to debate whether abortion should or shouldn't be legal.
ClydeG19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:58   #262
Huaco Kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: State
Posts: 3,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
If we were in the position of the fetus then we would be incapable of higher thought processing that is required to comprehend the simple concept of life, death and so forth.
Open season on severely retarded people, is it?
Huaco Kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:58   #263
JMS
02
 
JMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaGun View Post
Place your self in the position of the fetus, and it will correct your perspective on this issue.
Imagine if your whole life you felt that not even your parents wanted you and you were thrown into the system, hoping someone will come along to love you before you aged out.

I know people who grew up with one biological parent that to this day are not 100% right, either looking for a partner to be that missing parent or attaching themselves so tightly to everyone they know that they actually push people away.

But you know what's best for everyone.
__________________

JMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:03   #264
Baba Louie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,210
I "Get" all of it.

I just don't think the public needs to pay for "ALL Of It" or suffer their own loss of rights, if any, as a result. If history is any indicator, sometimes, maybe most times, there certainly is a wee bit of a loss and most certainly a price to pay in one way or another.

Keep the "Social Contract" to a minimum please.

YMMV
__________________
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
Baba Louie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:04   #265
moonwilson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 238
I'm pro-freedom. Pro gun, pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro drug legalization etc. I don't think the government has any business telling anyone what they can and can't do with their lives. As long as you're not hurting anyone, do whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. I don't like the idea of forcing beliefs on anyone.

Regarding abortion, I don't see a fetus as a child until it exits the mother's body.
moonwilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:05   #266
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Okay... let's try to get back on track with the original question:

In a truly free society the individual has the right to choose their course in life and they accept the consequences of those choices. Our society is not free and hasn't been for some time. That being said the "liberal" points of view I can agree with or at least understand are:

Religion again is a personal choice to engage in and one mans religion should not be the dictate of law for all men, regardless what their dogma dictates. Again in a truly free society where the recognition of God's granting of free will all men should be able to live their life and exercise their choices without having others deny or denounce them for their choices.

If you are of a religious bent then it is not our place to determine innocence or guilt of a persons choice of lifestyle and beliefs. That is for the deity to decide as so taught by the scriptures (judge not lest ye be judged...). Now in the case of capital crimes or crimes against others that do not result in death or injury then the onus falls upon we the people to try those accused in a fair court then punish in accordance with findings based on evidence and fact.

Same goes with women and their right to choose what to do with their body. It is not mans place to dictate right or wrong, again if you are of religious bent then the deity will make the final arbitration. It is not ours to make. In a free society men and women have the power to determine how they wish to live, what drugs if any they wish to consume and how they should die. Now, some may disagree with this and that is fine. But I am a firm believer in allowing true freedom of choice and action so long as it does not directly infringe upon another sentient beings freedoms and choices.

The problem with this though is there is no black and white and a whole lot of gray to this. BUT again it is not the job of the federal government or private citizen to dictate to another free citizen HOW they may live their life and in what activities they choose to participate in.

Also as pointed out by others, I believe in environmentalism to a point. I do believe we need to be better caretakers of our environment that we can find a nice balance of carbon based, nuclear and "green" energy production methods.

I like clean air and water... but not at the expense of deterring the freedoms of people. I also believe we need to be better at managing our wildlife resources. We as a species are intelligent enough to see the damage we do, we can still enjoy hunting and such but we need to be a bit better at managing it. And I mean not just preventing eradication but over population as well.
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:08   #267
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,726


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldMyHat View Post
At conception the cell is a living organism. It grows into a full term baby. At no time in that process is it not the same living organism.

If you want to argue that it's not self sustainable life, then okay. But at that point you are in the same space as those who say abortions should be legal up to 18 months since the child left by itself can't live. Or that senile people would shrivle up and die without assistance so we can euthanize them too.
A glob of cells may be a potential human but it isn't a human. My sperm cell is a potential human as well.

Trying to equate the two is a mistake and is based in Christian faith.

If you truly believe what you say you would be morally justified in using whatever violent means necessary to stop abortion doctors. So why aren't you doing that?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:09   #268
JMS
02
 
JMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonwilson View Post
I'm pro-freedom. Pro gun, pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro drug legalization etc. I don't think the government has any business telling anyone what they can and can't do with their lives. As long as you're not hurting anyone, do whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. I don't like the idea of forcing beliefs on anyone.

Regarding abortion, I don't see a fetus as a child until it exits the mother's body.
At 22/23 weeks a child can survive outside of the mother's body.
__________________

JMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:10   #269
TX OMFS
Right wing nut
 
TX OMFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
I have two of my own and a step son... and I still believe abortion is the right of the individual to choose from. It's up to their deity to pass judgment... not us.
You see the problem here, right? I mean, you passed a judgement in your post about not passing judgement. Judgements have to be made every day, all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
We would be incapable of higher thought processing...
Ha! Some of us are there already. Not you in particular 10mm.
__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.

Last edited by TX OMFS; 03-08-2013 at 11:10..
TX OMFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:10   #270
Mrs.Cicero
Wayward Member
 
Mrs.Cicero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: far from home
Posts: 4,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
A glob of cells may be a potential human but it isn't a human. My sperm cell is a potential human as well.

Trying to equate the two is a mistake and is based in Christian faith.

If you truly believe what you say you would be morally justified in using whatever violent means necessary to stop abortion doctors. So why aren't you doing that?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Because two wrongs (murders) don't make a right.
__________________
"Don't waste your time with explanations. People only hear what they want to hear." Paulo Coelho

"Oh bother," said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
Mrs.Cicero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:13   #271
JMS
02
 
JMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs.Cicero View Post
Because two wrongs (murders) don't make a right.
How do you justify eating meat?
__________________

JMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:15   #272
gonefishingtampa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10
It's amazing, we're all sane, rational people with open minds!!! Totally contrary to what we are perceived as.

Me, Free speech, pretty much every amendment in the bill of rights.
Gay marriage, equal rights for all.
Women's right to choose.
Separation of church and state.
gonefishingtampa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:16   #273
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,873


Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Looks like im not the only one to notice. Seems to be a trend.
Two is a trend in a thread with hundreds of posts that answered my question?

...and from two people who demonstrate, over and over again, the lack of capacity to understand context. (such as calling "two" a trend because it agrees with how they feel)



Some people make it so easy.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:17   #274
John Rambo
Raven
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tampa, Fl.
Posts: 8,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs.Cicero View Post
Because two wrongs (murders) don't make a right.
You show me a human being with a tail and then we can call it murder.
John Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 11:18   #275
BradD
Senior Member
 
BradD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Mid-South
Posts: 4,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
...If you truly believe what you say you would be morally justified in using whatever violent means necessary to stop abortion doctors. So why aren't you doing that?...
Romans 13. I could probably come up with other reasons, but that seems to be enough.
__________________
GT Strength and Conditioning Forum

Romans 3:23 -> 6:23 -> 5:8 -> 10:9 -> 10:13

An Excellent Gospel Presentation
BradD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:31.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 599
168 Members
431 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42