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Old 03-17-2013, 14:02   #41
Pier23
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Not sure if this has been mentioned or even relevant, but Hickock45 is right-handed but left-eye dominant. You may want to watch some of his vids. His shooting posture is... well... strained, to me...but you cannot argue with his results.
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Old 03-17-2013, 15:18   #42
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You found it amusing that I refused to switch to left-hand shooting because a SD instructor insisted my eye dominance made the change necessary.

I find your amusement...amusing. If I had been 35 years old instead of 35+35, it might have been compelling advice. If I had been preparing for competition, I might have made the switch. Since neither was the case, I'm still shooting handguns right handed/left eye.

Please explain how, and to what extent, cross-dominance affects handgun accuracy, especially for SD shooting.

By the way, I have always shot long guns right hand/right eye.

Thanks.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-17-2013 at 15:36..
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Old 03-17-2013, 15:22   #43
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No big deal; I'm right handed and used to shoot right eye dominant until I had the LASIK procedure in which my left eye is now tweaked a bit for close up while my right eye is distance. I now shoot left eye dominant with no problems.
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Old 03-17-2013, 16:28   #44
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I am left handed and right eye dominant and shoot everything(pistol, rifle, and a bow) right handed. I can shoot a pistol left or right, but am just a little better from the right, probably because I've done it longer from that side.
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Old 03-17-2013, 18:34   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
KEV-

You found it amusing that I refused to switch to left-hand shooting because a SD instructor insisted my eye dominance made the change necessary.

I find your amusement...amusing. If I had been 35 years old instead of 35+35, it might have been compelling advice. If I had been preparing for competition, I might have made the switch. Since neither was the case, I'm still shooting handguns right handed/left eye.

Please explain how, and to what extent, cross-dominance affects handgun accuracy, especially for SD shooting.

By the way, I have always shot long guns right hand/right eye.

Thanks.
Not directed to me, but you raise some good points.

You had good reason to tell the instructor to take a jump in the lake.

I'm sure there is a continuance of eye dominance from none to mild to moderate to severe. I'm in the none category.

But if someone is in the severe category and having trouble learning to shoot, the instructor could check for it, and then suggest the shooter use the dominant eye and see if that helps.

But if there is no problem in the shooting ability, then there is no reason to address the eye dominance issue.

That's my opinion

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Old 03-17-2013, 19:01   #46
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I'm still trying to figure out how cross dominance makes a material difference with handgun accuracy.

I can understand that the 'condition' would make shooting a rifle awkward and, maybe, inefficient to the extent of affecting accuracy. With a handgun, adjusting hand position to compensate is easy, and sight alignment provides accurate shot placement.

What am I missing?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-17-2013 at 19:02..
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Old 03-17-2013, 19:24   #47
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I'm still trying to figure out how cross dominance makes a material difference with handgun accuracy.

I can understand that the 'condition' would make shooting a rifle awkward and, maybe, inefficient to the extent of affecting accuracy. With a handgun, adjusting hand position to compensate is easy, and sight alignment provides accurate shot placement.

What am I missing?
In my opinion, you aren't missing anything. Just move the handgun over to the dominant eye. But some people haven't learned, realized, or been taught that

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Old 03-17-2013, 19:32   #48
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In my opinion, you aren't missing anything. Just move the handgun over to the dominant eye. But some people haven't learned, realized, or been taught that

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Gracias.

I may be unusual because I learned from the beginning to shoot long guns right hand/right eye. With handguns, the dominant left eye prevailed because it was easy to adjust, I guess.

Now, why would a SD instructor push me to make the dramatic change to carry, draw and shoot left handed? Principle? Just the awkwardness of learning to handle a pistol with the weak hand seems a bit dangerous to me.

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Old 03-17-2013, 20:41   #49
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Gracias.

I may be unusual because I learned from the beginning to shoot long guns right hand/right eye. With handguns, the dominant left eye prevailed because it was easy to adjust, I guess.

Now, why would a SD instructor push me to make the dramatic change to carry, draw and shoot left handed? Principle? Just the awkwardness of learning to handle a pistol with the weak hand seems a bit dangerous to me.
I don't see the gain. But maybe I'm not at a high enough level. Maybe you are an Olympic bronze medal shooter and the instructor believes the only way you can make gold is to switch hands Or maybe as part of your Navy Seal training the instructor believes it is important that you adapt and overcome.

But other than that, I can't see anything wrong with just moving the gun over 2" to the dominant eye. You do that enough and it is the natural position for your handgun. No adjusting involved, you just go to that spot.

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Old 03-17-2013, 22:14   #50
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I don't see the gain. But maybe I'm not at a high enough level. Maybe you are an Olympic bronze medal shooter and the instructor believes the only way you can make gold is to switch hands Or maybe as part of your Navy Seal training the instructor believes it is important that you adapt and overcome.

But other than that, I can't see anything wrong with just moving the gun over 2" to the dominant eye. You do that enough and it is the natural position for your handgun. No adjusting involved, you just go to that spot.

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That's the way I see it, too. Thanks.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:07   #51
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Please explain how, and to what extent, cross-dominance affects handgun accuracy, especially for SD shooting.
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I can understand that the 'condition' would make shooting a rifle awkward and, maybe, inefficient to the extent of affecting accuracy. With a handgun, adjusting hand position to compensate is easy, and sight alignment provides accurate shot placement.

What am I missing?
I assumed you were talking about a rifle since the post you commented on referenced "pistols or long guns."

At arms length, with both eyes open, shooting modern iso, you shouldn't need to do anything different. Shooting pistol weak handed is a major handicap. Shooting left handed may even create some new issues on pistols that are not ambi friendly.

As far as being specific to "SD shooting?"

That to me just means the stakes are higher... which is an even stronger argument for learning the right way.

You have a first hand account, straight from the battlefield, right here in this thread, about poor accuracy and reduced speed due to weak eye shooting. It resulted in an enemy escaping... lucky it didn't result in far worse.

The idea that some people have that, "SD means accuracy is not as important" is wrong headed. You still need to make good hits with proper shot placement, fast.

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By the way, I have always shot long guns right hand/right eye.
Which is your non-dominant eye, correct?

Either your Daddy or your Drill Sergeant failed you... maybe both.

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You had good reason to tell the instructor to take a jump in the lake.
Even though I agree with PhotoFeller on shooting dominant hand pistol (so does LAV), if I was the instructor, I would have just kicked him out of the class and given a refund. No need to get emotional over someone who is refusing to receive instruction/ refusal to train.

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...the instructor could check for it, and then suggest the shooter use the dominant eye and see if that helps.
It's pretty much a given in all but beginner or basic courses that the shooter will know which is their dominant eye and show up with a zeroed weapon.

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But if there is no problem in the shooting ability, then there is no reason to address the eye dominance issue.

That's my opinion
How do you define a "problem" in shooting ability?

Can't hit the paper?
At what distance?
Can't make hits "fast enough?"
How fast?

Like throwing discus, a big strong guy, especially a tall one, will be able to plant two feet and make a respectable distance just by chucking the disc.

Did he break any rules? No.
Was he unsafe? No.
Does he have any clue what he's doing? No.
Could he be at least twice as good by adopting proper technique? Absolutely!

Showing up to a Class and insisting on reinforcing poor technique (long guns from the weak eye) is like taking golf lessons and insisting on doing it Happy Gilmore style, or showing up to a driving school and saying you drive auto with both feet and one hand on the wheel...

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Old 03-18-2013, 10:11   #52
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Now, why would a SD instructor push me to make the dramatic change to carry, draw and shoot left handed?
Old School? Believes lore? Not cross-dominate? I suggest all of the above.

I agree with ithaca_deerslayer in that I don't think you are missing anything in your analysis.

As a cross dominant person, it has been somewhat of an adventure at times discovering which hand or hand/ eye combination to use for what activity.

Early on I began eating with left hand. I recall my parents having discussions at the dinner table on my handedness, with my mother opting for "let him do what is natural" to my father insisting I use my right hand. I'm not sure who won the argument, but I eat lefty. Also, write lefty.

What I have found over the years is that most things come naturally, if adults leave you alone, and let you decide yourself through trial and error. In my own personal experience, I find that in general things that are accuracy or detail oriented I do lefty (eat, write, shoot pool and rifle). Power things are done righty (throw, golf, etc.). Interestingly with batting, it's easy to switch hit, and though I shoot pistol righty, going to my weak hand is a snap. I also, believe that being left eye dominate and righty for power things, helps tremedously in batting and golf.

Being raised before many of the electronic distractions of today, and when they still had mandatory physical education in school, I wonder if kids now days are not at somewhat of a disadvantage in finding there handedness for certain activities. Glued to their TV's and video games many may not be given ample opportunity to explore their proper handedness.

Just my opinion.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:33   #53
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I am left eye dominant, but right handed. My childhood mentors taught me to shoot long guns right handed by sighting with my right eye. Handguns came later, without instruction, so the left eye dominance became 'normal' for me with handguns only.

Long guns=right eye sighting as learned 60 years ago.
Handguns=left eye sighting from left eye dominance.

My reference to SD shooting was meant to suggest that handgun accuracy at close range shouldn't be adversly affected by shooting right handed with the left eye.

The SD instructor wanted another member of the class and me to switch to left hand shooting during the class, which included live fire training. Frankly, I thought it was foolish to have two people on the firing line fumbling with shooting and reholstering as part of a group class.

It still isn't clear why you insist that handgun performance is enhanced by shooting in a way that accommodates the dominant eye...in my case left hand and left eye. By "insist" I mean you would eject someone from a class who felt it was not a good idea to transition during the class.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:04   #54
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Old School? Believes lore? Not cross-dominate? I suggest all of the above.

I agree with ithaca_deerslayer in that I don't think you are missing anything in your analysis.

As a cross dominant person, it has been somewhat of an adventure at times discovering which hand or hand/ eye combination to use for what activity.

Early on I began eating with left hand. I recall my parents having discussions at the dinner table on my handedness, with my mother opting for "let him do what is natural" to my father insisting I use my right hand. I'm not sure who won the argument, but I eat lefty. Also, write lefty.

What I have found over the years is that most things come naturally, if adults leave you alone, and let you decide yourself through trial and error. In my own personal experience, I find that in general things that are accuracy or detail oriented I do lefty (eat, write, shoot pool and rifle). Power things are done righty (throw, golf, etc.). Interestingly with batting, it's easy to switch hit, and though I shoot pistol righty, going to my weak hand is a snap. I also, believe that being left eye dominate and righty for power things, helps tremedously in batting and golf.

Being raised before many of the electronic distractions of today, and when they still had mandatory physical education in school, I wonder if kids now days are not at somewhat of a disadvantage in finding there handedness for certain activities. Glued to their TV's and video games many may not be given ample opportunity to explore their proper handedness.

Just my opinion.
Thanks. I have always done everything with the right hand, but my parents might have 'coached' me to use the right only.

How do instructors in competitive handgun shooting deal with cross dominance?

Have you come across other competitors who shoot right hand/left eye successfully?

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Old 03-18-2013, 12:00   #55
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How do instructors in competitive handgun shooting deal with cross dominance?

Have you come across other competitors who shoot right hand/left eye successfully?
I've taken many shooting classes over the years, mostly pistol, but also rifle, and combat shotgun. While most were self defense oriented, some were competition related. No Gun Site or Thunder Ranch instruction. I did take a 3 day IPSC shooting class with Jerry Barnhart in '98, who knows a thing or two about shooting. There were 10 in the class, so individual instruction/comment was ongoing. He nor any other instructor commented on my handedness.

I've know many over the years who are left eye dominate and shoot, at least pistol, righty. The person who introduced me to IPSC/USPSA shoots that way and is pretty decent.

I think the isosceles stance lends itself well to cross-dominate shooting, as it is pretty easy to cross the gun over toward the left slightly, at least with pistol. Not so much with Weaver. When I got serious about shooting, other than the occasional range trip shooting, I learned Isosceles. Just seemed better suited to me. I've tried Weaver a few times and it ties me up in knots. I can see if one teaches that stance, that dominate eye shooting would likely be better.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:10   #56
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My reference to SD shooting was meant to suggest that handgun accuracy at close range shouldn't be adversly affected by shooting right handed with the left eye.
We're in agreement that modern iso stance, both eyes open pistol shooting should not be effected by which hand the gun is held in. There should be no swinging the gun to one side or another, or eye squinting. You should shoot your dominant hand in Pistol.

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It still isn't clear why you insist that handgun performance is enhanced by shooting in a way that accommodates the dominant eye...in my case left hand and left eye. By "insist" I mean you would eject someone from a class who felt it was not a good idea to transition during the class.
I said:

Quote:
At arms length, with both eyes open, shooting modern iso, you shouldn't need to do anything different. Shooting pistol weak handed is a major handicap. Shooting left handed may even create some new issues on pistols that are not ambi friendly.
I also said that if I were instructing a class and a student said, "Thanks, I'll do it my way" I'd tell him to go do it somewhere else.

This is why it's so important to properly vet your instructors and to only receive training from competent individuals. To use an example: The "Israeli" empty chamber/Condition 3 carry method is designed to prevent conscript soldiers from shooting themselves, and is a policy that places CYA over defensive readiness. It is unsound. I will not take instruction from anyone who believes in this.

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Long guns=right eye sighting as learned 60 years ago.
Handguns=left eye sighting from left eye dominance.
It's never too late to start doing it right. You WILL see a dramatic improvement once you start shooting long guns from your dominant eye. It will be like finally signing your name with the proper hand.

I want to repeat a portion of my own previous post to make sure it sank in to the readers here:

Quote:
You have a first hand account, straight from the battlefield, right here in this thread, about poor accuracy and reduced speed due to weak eye shooting. It resulted in an enemy escaping... lucky it didn't result in far worse.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:30   #57
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It's never too late to start doing it right. You WILL see a dramatic improvement once you start shooting long guns from your dominant eye. It will be like finally signing your name with the proper hand.
I believe this is right.

The following from personal experience:

As a child I shot a bow a few times, but it was a kids toy. The Cowboy's and Indians cheap thing with the rubber cup on the end.

I grew up throwing right handed. Hadn't shot pistol or rifle very much at all, but enough to know pistol was right handed and rifle was left. I never thought at all about eye dominance. Just doing what seemed natural. If I did something better one way than another, that's the way I continued doing it. Trial and error.

In my early 20's I entered an informal archery contest at a resort I was staying at. They weren't using competition or hunting bows, but they were a lot better than I had ever shot when 6-7 yeasr old. After a round or two trying right handed, which seemed the logical thing, with the drawing the bow and all, I found I was pretty bad. In my ongoing experiment, I switched to lefty, and BULLSEYE, I had discovered cross dominance. If you aren't aware, you can't fix it.
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Old 03-18-2013, 16:47   #58
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My daughter is left eye dom, but right handed. She learned to shoot left handed. Worked very well for her.
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Old 03-18-2013, 17:26   #59
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My daughter is left eye dom, but right handed. She learned to shoot left handed. Worked very well for her.
I think it pretty much has to be that way for long guns, but for a pistol I wouldn't try to switch to lefty, I'd just go righty and cock my head a bit to line up the sights.

The important thing is she found a way that works for her. She'll likely do excellent when exposed to off hand shooting.
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Old 03-18-2013, 17:47   #60
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As a person who has always done everything right handed, I think it would be quite awkward to shoot any gun, long or short, left handed. Shouldering and shooting a rifle left handed without a rest, against my right hand nature, seems a near impossible thing to do well.

So, I'd like to hear from others who have made the conversion as an adult, please.

Was it difficult to develop the finesse needed for effective shooting: 1. Shouldering, sighting, trigger management and general handling a rifle freehand and 2. drawing, presenting, sighting, shooting and re-holstering a handgun? Was the gain in accuracy worth the effort?

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