[KalashniKEV]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Please explain how, and to what extent, cross-dominance affects handgun accuracy, especially for SD shooting.

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

I can understand that the 'condition' would make shooting a rifle awkward and, maybe, inefficient to the extent of affecting accuracy. With a handgun, adjusting hand position to compensate is easy, and sight alignment provides accurate shot placement.

What am I missing?

I assumed you were talking about a rifle since the post you commented on referenced "pistols or long guns."

At arms length, with both eyes open, shooting modern iso, you shouldn't need to do anything different. Shooting pistol weak handed is a major handicap. Shooting left handed may even create some new issues on pistols that are not ambi friendly.

As far as being specific to "SD shooting?"

That to me just means the stakes are higher... which is an even stronger argument for learning the right way.

You have a first hand account, straight from the battlefield, right here in this thread, about poor accuracy and reduced speed due to weak eye shooting. It resulted in an enemy escaping... lucky it didn't result in far worse.

The idea that some people have that, "SD means accuracy is not as important" is wrong headed. You still need to make good hits with proper shot placement, fast.

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

By the way, I have always shot long guns right hand/right eye.

Which is your non-dominant eye, correct?

Either your Daddy or your Drill Sergeant failed you... maybe both.

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

You had good reason to tell the instructor to take a jump in the lake.

Even though I agree with PhotoFeller on shooting dominant hand pistol (so does LAV), if I was the instructor, I would have just kicked him out of the class and given a refund. No need to get emotional over someone who is refusing to receive instruction/ refusal to train.

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

...the instructor could check for it, and then suggest the shooter use the dominant eye and see if that helps.

It's pretty much a given in all but beginner or basic courses that the shooter will know which is their dominant eye and show up with a zeroed weapon.

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

But if there is no problem in the shooting ability, then there is no reason to address the eye dominance issue.

That's my opinion

How do you define a "problem" in shooting ability?

Can't hit the paper?
At what distance?
Can't make hits "fast enough?"
How fast?

Like throwing discus, a big strong guy, especially a tall one, will be able to plant two feet and make a respectable distance just by chucking the disc.

Did he break any rules? No.
Was he unsafe? No.
Does he have any clue what he's doing? No.
Could he be at least twice as good by adopting proper technique? Absolutely!

Showing up to a Class and insisting on reinforcing poor technique (long guns from the weak eye) is like taking golf lessons and insisting on doing it Happy Gilmore style, or showing up to a driving school and saying you drive auto with both feet and one hand on the wheel...

[ipscshooter]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Now, why would a SD instructor push me to make the dramatic change to carry, draw and shoot left handed?

Old School? Believes lore? Not cross-dominate? I suggest all of the above.

I agree with ithaca_deerslayer in that I don't think you are missing anything in your analysis.

As a cross dominant person, it has been somewhat of an adventure at times discovering which hand or hand/ eye combination to use for what activity.

Early on I began eating with left hand. I recall my parents having discussions at the dinner table on my handedness, with my mother opting for "let him do what is natural" to my father insisting I use my right hand. I'm not sure who won the argument, but I eat lefty. Also, write lefty.

What I have found over the years is that most things come naturally, if adults leave you alone, and let you decide yourself through trial and error. In my own personal experience, I find that in general things that are accuracy or detail oriented I do lefty (eat, write, shoot pool and rifle). Power things are done righty (throw, golf, etc.). Interestingly with batting, it's easy to switch hit, and though I shoot pistol righty, going to my weak hand is a snap. I also, believe that being left eye dominate and righty for power things, helps tremedously in batting and golf.

Being raised before many of the electronic distractions of today, and when they still had mandatory physical education in school, I wonder if kids now days are not at somewhat of a disadvantage in finding there handedness for certain activities. Glued to their TV's and video games many may not be given ample opportunity to explore their proper handedness.

Just my opinion.

[PhotoFeller]

KEV-

I am left eye dominant, but right handed. My childhood mentors taught me to shoot long guns right handed by sighting with my right eye. Handguns came later, without instruction, so the left eye dominance became 'normal' for me with handguns only.

Long guns=right eye sighting as learned 60 years ago.
Handguns=left eye sighting from left eye dominance.

My reference to SD shooting was meant to suggest that handgun accuracy at close range shouldn't be adversly affected by shooting right handed with the left eye.

The SD instructor wanted another member of the class and me to switch to left hand shooting during the class, which included live fire training. Frankly, I thought it was foolish to have two people on the firing line fumbling with shooting and reholstering as part of a group class.

It still isn't clear why you insist that handgun performance is enhanced by shooting in a way that accommodates the dominant eye...in my case left hand and left eye. By "insist" I mean you would eject someone from a class who felt it was not a good idea to transition during the class.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by ipscshooter

Old School? Believes lore? Not cross-dominate? I suggest all of the above.

I agree with ithaca_deerslayer in that I don't think you are missing anything in your analysis.

As a cross dominant person, it has been somewhat of an adventure at times discovering which hand or hand/ eye combination to use for what activity.

Early on I began eating with left hand. I recall my parents having discussions at the dinner table on my handedness, with my mother opting for "let him do what is natural" to my father insisting I use my right hand. I'm not sure who won the argument, but I eat lefty. Also, write lefty.

What I have found over the years is that most things come naturally, if adults leave you alone, and let you decide yourself through trial and error. In my own personal experience, I find that in general things that are accuracy or detail oriented I do lefty (eat, write, shoot pool and rifle). Power things are done righty (throw, golf, etc.). Interestingly with batting, it's easy to switch hit, and though I shoot pistol righty, going to my weak hand is a snap. I also, believe that being left eye dominate and righty for power things, helps tremedously in batting and golf.

Being raised before many of the electronic distractions of today, and when they still had mandatory physical education in school, I wonder if kids now days are not at somewhat of a disadvantage in finding there handedness for certain activities. Glued to their TV's and video games many may not be given ample opportunity to explore their proper handedness.

Just my opinion.

Thanks. I have always done everything with the right hand, but my parents might have 'coached' me to use the right only.

How do instructors in competitive handgun shooting deal with cross dominance?

Have you come across other competitors who shoot right hand/left eye successfully?

[ipscshooter]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

How do instructors in competitive handgun shooting deal with cross dominance?

Have you come across other competitors who shoot right hand/left eye successfully?

I've taken many shooting classes over the years, mostly pistol, but also rifle, and combat shotgun. While most were self defense oriented, some were competition related. No Gun Site or Thunder Ranch instruction. I did take a 3 day IPSC shooting class with Jerry Barnhart in '98, who knows a thing or two about shooting. There were 10 in the class, so individual instruction/comment was ongoing. He nor any other instructor commented on my handedness.

I've know many over the years who are left eye dominate and shoot, at least pistol, righty. The person who introduced me to IPSC/USPSA shoots that way and is pretty decent.

I think the isosceles stance lends itself well to cross-dominate shooting, as it is pretty easy to cross the gun over toward the left slightly, at least with pistol. Not so much with Weaver. When I got serious about shooting, other than the occasional range trip shooting, I learned Isosceles. Just seemed better suited to me. I've tried Weaver a few times and it ties me up in knots. I can see if one teaches that stance, that dominate eye shooting would likely be better.

[KalashniKEV]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

My reference to SD shooting was meant to suggest that handgun accuracy at close range shouldn't be adversly affected by shooting right handed with the left eye.

We're in agreement that modern iso stance, both eyes open pistol shooting should not be effected by which hand the gun is held in. There should be no swinging the gun to one side or another, or eye squinting. You should shoot your dominant hand in Pistol.

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

It still isn't clear why you insist that handgun performance is enhanced by shooting in a way that accommodates the dominant eye...in my case left hand and left eye. By "insist" I mean you would eject someone from a class who felt it was not a good idea to transition during the class.

I said:

At arms length, with both eyes open, shooting modern iso, you shouldn't need to do anything different. Shooting pistol weak handed is a major handicap. Shooting left handed may even create some new issues on pistols that are not ambi friendly.

I also said that if I were instructing a class and a student said, "Thanks, I'll do it my way" I'd tell him to go do it somewhere else.

This is why it's so important to properly vet your instructors and to only receive training from competent individuals. To use an example: The "Israeli" empty chamber/Condition 3 carry method is designed to prevent conscript soldiers from shooting themselves, and is a policy that places CYA over defensive readiness. It is unsound. I will not take instruction from anyone who believes in this.

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Long guns=right eye sighting as learned 60 years ago.
Handguns=left eye sighting from left eye dominance.

It's never too late to start doing it right. You WILL see a dramatic improvement once you start shooting long guns from your dominant eye. It will be like finally signing your name with the proper hand.

I want to repeat a portion of my own previous post to make sure it sank in to the readers here:

You have a first hand account, straight from the battlefield, right here in this thread, about poor accuracy and reduced speed due to weak eye shooting. It resulted in an enemy escaping... lucky it didn't result in far worse.

[ipscshooter]

Originally Posted by KalashniKEV

It's never too late to start doing it right. You WILL see a dramatic improvement once you start shooting long guns from your dominant eye. It will be like finally signing your name with the proper hand.

I believe this is right.

The following from personal experience:

As a child I shot a bow a few times, but it was a kids toy. The Cowboy's and Indians cheap thing with the rubber cup on the end.

I grew up throwing right handed. Hadn't shot pistol or rifle very much at all, but enough to know pistol was right handed and rifle was left. I never thought at all about eye dominance. Just doing what seemed natural. If I did something better one way than another, that's the way I continued doing it. Trial and error.

In my early 20's I entered an informal archery contest at a resort I was staying at. They weren't using competition or hunting bows, but they were a lot better than I had ever shot when 6-7 yeasr old. After a round or two trying right handed, which seemed the logical thing, with the drawing the bow and all, I found I was pretty bad. In my ongoing experiment, I switched to lefty, and BULLSEYE, I had discovered cross dominance. If you aren't aware, you can't fix it.

[owl6roll]

My daughter is left eye dom, but right handed. She learned to shoot left handed. Worked very well for her.

[Short Cut]

Originally Posted by owl6roll

My daughter is left eye dom, but right handed. She learned to shoot left handed. Worked very well for her.

I think it pretty much has to be that way for long guns, but for a pistol I wouldn't try to switch to lefty, I'd just go righty and cock my head a bit to line up the sights.

The important thing is she found a way that works for her. She'll likely do excellent when exposed to off hand shooting.

[PhotoFeller]

As a person who has always done everything right handed, I think it would be quite awkward to shoot any gun, long or short, left handed. Shouldering and shooting a rifle left handed without a rest, against my right hand nature, seems a near impossible thing to do well.

So, I'd like to hear from others who have made the conversion as an adult, please.

Was it difficult to develop the finesse needed for effective shooting: 1. Shouldering, sighting, trigger management and general handling a rifle freehand and 2. drawing, presenting, sighting, shooting and re-holstering a handgun? Was the gain in accuracy worth the effort?

[jcal0820]

Going to have our unit's quarterly rifle qualifications next month, & plan on shooting all left handed for the first time. Did some dry fire runs, and we'll see how that pays off... Will be zeroing & qualifying on pop up targets, with an M4 and issued ACOG 3x. I'm left eye dominant/ right handed, so a lot of awkwardness to overcome.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by Short Cut

I think it pretty much has to be that way for long guns, but for a pistol I wouldn't try to switch to lefty, I'd just go righty and cock my head a bit to line up the sights.

The important thing is she found a way that works for her. She'll likely do excellent when exposed to off hand shooting.

I started shooting right hand/right eye as a kid, not knowing my left eye is dominant. This method has worked for decades, and worked well enough to get me through Army qualification with an old M1 that was with the armorer getting fixed as much as with me.

Right/right feels natural with long guns. I never think about which eye is doin' what. So, what am I doing that undermines accuracy? Have I been fooling my brain all these years? Will lookin' through the sight with the left eye line things up 'better' because of a neurological processing advantage?

[Short Cut]

You're a freak of nature! j/k

Generally people do better using their dominate eye. Here's another little bend though, some folks don't really have a strong dominate eye. Or they test for it and the results will swap back and forth.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by jcal0820

Going to have our unit's quarterly rifle qualifications next month, & plan on shooting all left handed for the first time. Did some dry fire runs, and we'll see how that pays off... Will be zeroing & qualifying on pop up targets, with an M4 and issued ACOG 3x. I'm left eye dominant/ right handed, so a lot of awkwardness to overcome.

Good luck with qualifications.

Are you changing because of accuracy problems or because you just think its appropriate to sight with the dominant eye?

[jcal0820]

Could never qualify Expert, ever. Highest I ever got on the M16/M4 was Shapshooter... after finally realizing my cross eye dominance, I think I now understand why... always had a tough time lining up my sight picture, wasting critical time. This delay likely because I've been aiming with the weak eye this entire time.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[ipscshooter]

Originally Posted by jcal0820

Going to have our unit's quarterly rifle qualifications next month, & plan on shooting all left handed for the first time. Did some dry fire runs, and we'll see how that pays off... Will be zeroing & qualifying on pop up targets, with an M4 and issued ACOG 3x. I'm left eye dominant/ right handed, so a lot of awkwardness to overcome.

Dry fire runs are the thing to do. Also recommend a lot of presentation practice...i.e. gun at ready and snap to sight picture. Repeat, repeat, repeat.....build that muscle memory to overcome the awkwardness of switching from what you are used to.

Thank you for your service, and keep your head down.

[PhotoFeller]

I know everything is different now that ARs are used, but training with the M1 involved lots of shooting with a sling. Switching from right hand to left and managing the sling in multiple shooting positions would have been quite a challenge.

[Jake Starr]

You aim long guns from your dominant eye.

This is using both eyes open. If closing one eye it doesn't matter.

Learn to point shoot with handgun. At most CQB distances, still doesn't matter.

For Sighted Aimed Fire with a Pistol and using both eyes open, if cross dominant are you, you will need to do a gun shift, held tilt. Shift gun more toward your dominant eye side, or tilt chin toward support side shoulder to bring sights in line with dominant eye.

Or get a shotgun.

[gommer]

Originally Posted by BenjiEDF

Anyone have any advice for training a left-hander who is right eye dominant? I figure with rifles he will just have to suck it up and shoot them right handed. What about pistols? It there is already good info on the subject then point me in the right direction please.

My son is left handed and right eye dominent.

I started him off with right handed training from the start at age 6. At age 10, after 4 years of fairly regular right handed shooting - I took him to look at a left handed rifle.

Explained it was left handed - hold it on the other shoulder, etc - then handed it to him. He immediately shouldered it on his right shoulder, ha!

Took him a second but he obviously realized what he'd done - switched hands and tried to should it on his left shoulder. Bumped it against his shoulder a couple times and just handed the gun back shaking his head.

He wanted that gun, too - because it was his introduction to getting his first deer rifle. He wanted it not because it was left handed but because of what it was. Not buying it meant he'd have to wait an unknown period of time as I looked for that very specific rifle in his price range etc - which wouldn't be soon. Hard for a 10 year old, no doubt. But, he only had to try and shoulder it once to say for sure he never wanted to try and shoot left handed again.


Different strokes for different folks, I'm sure. I did a LOT of reading on this subject before I went down the path I did with my Son - and I can say with certainty that opinions differ. There are 'experts' who for both sides... my experience with my Son, though, tells me that re-training the hand is better than re-training the eye.

Not only that - but it makes purchasing firearms MUCH easier. For that reason alone - it's a better path, in my opinion.

[KalashniKEV]

Are we really going to have a multi page-debate on a gun forum about how to find your dominant eye and why shooting from your weak eye is a handicap?

Originally Posted by Jake Starr

This is using both eyes open. If closing one eye it doesn't matter.

Closing your dominant eye will force your brain to work with the weak eye (refer to FM 3-22.9, Ch. 4-7, and the exercise in Appendix A), but I have no idea in the world why a person would want to do that. It is sub optimal, a step in the wrong direction, and the foundation of poor technique.

Originally Posted by Jake Starr

Learn to point shoot with handgun. At most CQB distances, still doesn't matter.

Yeah... no.

The answer to the question about proper sight acquisition and alignment is not, "learn to stop using the sights."

Point shooting is a skill to be learned, no doubt, but we're talking about Day Zero Fundamentals of Marksmanship in this thread.

Also, practicing the discipline involves going through steps like target acquisition, target ID, sight alignment, trigger control, etc. Point shooting is a niche subset of all of these with a limited application.

Originally Posted by Jake Starr

For Sighted Aimed Fire with a Pistol and using both eyes open, if cross dominant are you, you will need to do a gun shift, held tilt. Shift gun more toward your dominant eye side, or tilt chin toward support side shoulder to bring sights in line with dominant eye.

LOL... OK, yoda.

You shouldn't have to do any shifting or contorting if you're shooting modern iso with both eyes open.

At arm's length you should be able to acquire a proper sight picture with good alignment and focus on the front sight directly in line with your nose... just like anyone reading this can do holding a pen, right now.

Try it.

Originally Posted by Jake Starr

Or get a shotgun.

For breaching, it's not going to matter. For non lethal use you're still going to shoot a long gun from your dominant eye.

Originally Posted by gommer

I started him off with right handed training from the start at age 6. At age 10, after 4 years of fairly regular right handed shooting - I took him to look at a left handed rifle.

Why???

Originally Posted by gommer

Explained it was left handed - hold it on the other shoulder, etc - then handed it to him. He immediately shouldered it on his right shoulder, ha!

Makes sense, you said he was aware of his dominant eye, correct?

Originally Posted by gommer

He wanted that gun, too - because it was his introduction to getting his first deer rifle. He wanted it not because it was left handed but because of what it was. Not buying it meant he'd have to wait an unknown period of time as I looked for that very specific rifle in his price range etc - which wouldn't be soon.

Everything I've said above is fact, but it's my opinion that there is no such thing as a "Left Handed" or a "Right Handed" gun.

Originally Posted by gommer

Hard for a 10 year old, no doubt. But, he only had to try and shoulder it once to say for sure he never wanted to try and shoot left handed again.

Why would he shoot from his left shoulder if he was right eye dominant?

Originally Posted by gommer

I did a LOT of reading on this subject before I went down the path I did with my Son - and I can say with certainty that opinions differ. There are 'experts' who for both sides...

There are no "experts" who advocate shooting from the weak eye. Even a basic instructor can lead a student in an eye dominance drill and start from there.

[jcal0820]

Range is next week, going to shoot with my ACOG, using BAC technique, keeping both eyes open even on pop targets out to 300 meters. Never could do that before, but been practicing with my (newly found) dominant eye.