[fastbolt]

This again? Really?

Posts #2 & #3 were nicely done. Read them again.

People often only see what they expect to see. Perception can certainly cloud reality.

It's important to learn to really see what's there to be seen, and then be able to use good judgment to employ good decision-making skills, based upon training & experience.

I remember encountering some picture threat targets of this type (pregnant female) a while back during some quals.

Considering that people unlawfully using guns as deadly weapons are still people, in all their variety, it didn't seem that odd to me.

Remember when it was discovered that some people (like in the military) were reluctant to shoot at even human-shaped outlines (silhouettes)? Training is more than introducing simple skillsets. Mindset is more than just having a philosophy or atttiude. Being able to make decisions under stressful situations is only beneficial if they're good decisions.

[OlliesRevenge]

Originally Posted by Rustin

Perhaps this has been touched on before but it's just too shocking to let go... They spent 2 million on these targets...

"No more hesitation targets-Homeland security and police depts. request targets for shooting practice to help desensitize law enforcment to shooting average americans."

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...age-americans/

If this isn't a blatant example of what they are planning on doing with their 2 billion hollow points then I don't know what is.

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/02/dh...an-gun-owners/

Door to door confiscation?

If the time for it ever comes, I pray I will have the courage to respond appropriately to anyone who comes to take away my liberty - regardless of whether they are operating under "color of law", and regardless of what clothing, insignia, or metal trinkets they are wearing.

[nursetim]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

The frightening thing, is that is sometimes a reality. I was down, many years ago in some thick brush catching illegal aliens by the Rio Grande. It was also bordered the hood, ghetto, whatever you prefer. I saw a scatter of legs through the brush, and gave pursuit. Through, the glimpses of brusth and bamboo I caught the shilouette of a 1911 .45 ACP. So, I draw my pistol, and give chase. The person with the 1911 raises it up, I raise mine and put pressure on the trigger. The brush opens, and I see a kid with a friggin lifelike BB gun. I don't know who was more freaked out by the encounter, me or hiim.

The concept of shooting a kid with a realistic looking BB gun pointed at you, was not a happy thought. Dying is also not a happy thought. In a perfect world, these guys parents would need a beating for letting their kids run around in an area frequented by violent guides (coyotes) drug cartels, and the Mexican Military.

My heart goes out to you brother. That is a nightmare situation. While you would have been justified legally, that is small comfort for the sleepless nights or nights lost to nightmares. Thank God things worked out like they did. Parenting fail that, as you rightly pointed out, deserves a caning.

[nursetim]

Didn't our country's enemies use children, to go hug GIs, wired with explosives? Effective no?

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Ironically, on most targets and shooting simulations, the firearm gets hit, because it is the percieved threat.

Originally Posted by janice6

Interesting. Not "my" center of mass, but interesting nonetheless.

Yep, not uncommon for the subconscious "threat-focus" influence to make itself felt in qual/training situations. (As well as in real life)

In quals/training it's sometimes interesting to see the surprise of a lot of the LE with whom I've worked when they first realize that a significant number of their "aimed hits" were clustered on & around the gun visible in the large picture threat targets.

I've yet to have anyone tell me they intentionally aimed for the gun. More often than not, they ask me why their hits were more centered around the gun, as it's seemingly a real surprise to them ... especially since they really thought they were aiming at the threat target's COM.

Working, training & testing/evaluating the "software" is every bit as important as working on the "hardware", you know?

[ateamer]

Homeland Security includes Customs & Border Protection, ICE, Coast Guard, TSA, Secret Service and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Do any of those agencies engage in law enforcement and require ongoing training?

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by ateamer

Homeland Security includes Customs & Border Protection, ICE, Coast Guard, TSA, Secret Service and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Do any of those agencies engage in law enforcement and require ongoing training?

Yes. With the exception that the Coast Guard are considered military personnel with all the comensurate benefits.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by nursetim

My heart goes out to you brother. That is a nightmare situation. While you would have been justified legally, that is small comfort for the sleepless nights or nights lost to nightmares. Thank God things worked out like they did. Parenting fail that, as you rightly pointed out, deserves a caning.

Thanks. It is not something you easily forget, even 10 years later.

[ateamer]

Originally Posted by MaxxAction

This is not to mention that I don't believe that most L.E. Agencies train with hollow point ammo, do they?

Many do, and more and more are changing to training exclusively with duty ammo. You have to train realistically, and that means the same ballistics and recoil. Woe be unto the training division and chief when a lawsuit comes down and failure to properly train is found to have occurred.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by ateamer

Many do, and more and more are changing to training exclusively with duty ammo. You have to train realistically, and that means the same ballistics and recoil. Woe be unto the training division and chief when a lawsuit comes down and failure to properly train is found to have occurred.

My quals are all done with duty ammo. Those are the rules.

[MaxxAction]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

My quals are all done with duty ammo. Those are the rules.

Hey Bro...

appreciate what you do. I have often said I don't know how one does such a job and keeps their sanity.

As far as quals, that I can see, but when you go to the range to practice, are you using HP ammo? Or something that is more of a range ammo, frangible, fmj stuff?

[ateamer]

At my agency, we do 100% of our training and quals with duty ammo.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by FullClip

I figure they can be of many diverse and various appearances.

But I suspect that the type threats represented in the targets are a "minority" of violent criminals who endanger law enforcement....or other government agents.

In the last couple of months alone, at least two "grandfatherly" guys made the national news. The first was in NY, where he call 9-1-1 to lure in FF and first responders, then shot and killed them. The second shot and killed a school bus driver, kidnapped a 8 y.o. off the school bus, then barricaded themselves in a bunker for 4 or 5 days.

Again, more power to anyone who, in their mind, has a clear and unambiguous image of what a deadly threat look like.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by MaxxAction

Not mad...

just curious. This is from an article on investors business daily.

In a puzzling, unexplained development, the Obama administration has been buying and storing vast amounts of ammunition in recent months, with the Department of Homeland Security just placing another order for an additional 21.6 million rounds.

The 21.6 million rounds is the most recent that I know of, and the primary sourcing for the 21.6 million is lousy writers with agendas at Prison Planet (infowars). Any cursory reading of the actual purchase order tells you it was for 240,000 rounds. Given that the order was for the Western FLETC, I'd say that it was justifiable.

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=23906

As for the 1.6 billion rounds, that story has ballooned, again with agendas.

The contracts are for "up to" 450 million per year for 4 years, with an option for a 5th year. Not the key phrase "up to". The contracts were what are called "indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity", which are commonly used when the contractee can't determine exactly how much they need or when they need it.

In the DHS case, it keeps the supplier on contract so that when they want more they don't have to re-bid the contract and drag out delivery times.

Given that DHS and its agencies have tens of thousands of armed agents, I'm less than surprised that they need several million rounds a year. What surprises me is that so few of the incensed and outraged can't think rationally enough to figure it out themselves.

[Bruce M]

It is not that they bought 450,000,000,000 rounds a year that frightens me, it is that they are being delivered... ...by drones.

[ateamer]

Originally Posted by Bruce M

It is not that they bought 450,000,000,000 rounds a year that frightens me, it is that they are being delivered... ...by drones.

...that spray chemtrails...

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by Bruce M

It is not that they bought 450,000,000,000 rounds a year that frightens me, it is that they are being delivered... ...by drones.

Drones armed with 9mm and .40 cal miniguns? I am impressed by how unimpressive that is.

[ray9898]

The lack of logic that can be displayed by some "gun owners" is shocking. Conservatives try to act like liberal are the only ones who let emotion rule their life. Pfft.

[Patchman]

So the answer to the question "Who is the real enemy?" is.. idiots who breath and breed.

[pizza_pablo]

Originally Posted by Bill Keith

Methinks the photos of the targets show 'normal' people with handguns POINTED at the shooting trainee. My interpretation is that an offender can look like the sweet old lady, pregnant woman etc. It is a leap to assume that the local gendarmerie and HS is being prepped to shoot the local innocent populace. The outfit that puts out this info is in the business of right-wing propaganda....what is their motive but to rev up the retarded paranoiacs.

Like the one beat up, by the "officers" or "agents", in the Katrina confiscation video, for having a snubby, for protection?

[Rustin]

Originally Posted by pizza_pablo

Like the one beat up, by the "officers" or "agents", in the Katrina confiscation video, for having a snubby, for protection?

But, but, it can't hapen here!

Some people just want to bury their head in the sand...

[racerford]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

Yep, not uncommon for the subconscious "threat-focus" influence to make itself felt in qual/training situations. (As well as in real life)

........

I've yet to have anyone tell me they intentionally aimed for the gun. More often than not, they ask me why their hits were more centered around the gun, as it's seemingly a real surprise to them ... especially since they really thought they were aiming at the threat target's COM.

Working, training & testing/evaluating the "software" is every bit as important as working on the "hardware", you know?

Apparently you never watched the "Lone Ranger". He was quite good at it. The first liberal in movies. He realized there are no "bad guys". Only guys with bad guns, so he took out the real threat, the bad gun.

[bluesman55]

I guess its OK for the DHS to buy 2700 armored troop carriers. They will need those at the airport check-in gate. The gestapo has returned. Oh yea I forgot they are for our own good.

[Glock20 10mm]

Originally Posted by FullClip

Here's a little test for y'all with good-guys and bad-guys. You gotta' react quick. Just follow the link and use your "L" or "A" key as needed.

http://ccsn.uchicago.edu/Studies/ShooterEffect/

But unlike the DHS Gestapo targets, I don't think that you'll have to target kids or pregnant women in the link,,,,

Congratulations! And thank you!

This is the end of the study.

We really appreciate your participation: collecting opinions from people like you makes our research possible.

If you enjoyed participating in our study, tell your friends! Feel free to email our link (http://ccsn.uchicago.edu/Studies/ShooterEffect/) to your friends and contacts, or post it on Facebook, Twitter, etc. We hope to collect opinions from a large number of people, and we’ll need your help to reach them all. Thank you for spreading the word!
Your results:

Group Reaction Time Accuracy
Black Armed 594.391304348 91.3043478261%
White Armed 640.65 95.0%
Black Unarmed 770.458333333 87.5%
White Unarmed 717.476190476 71.4285714286%

Hmmm... me thinks I need a bit more practice...

[The Fist Of Goodness]

Originally Posted by MaxxAction

Hey Bro...

appreciate what you do. I have often said I don't know how one does such a job and keeps their sanity.

As far as quals, that I can see, but when you go to the range to practice, are you using HP ammo? Or something that is more of a range ammo, frangible, fmj stuff?

We use duty ammo, unless the specific range we use (all LE ranges) require "lead free" ammo, then we switch out.

FLETC has switched some of their ranges to Lead Free, and the FAM training center outside Atlantic City is also (I believe 100%) Lead Free.