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Old 03-04-2013, 16:42   #176
Gallium
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Originally Posted by Diesel McBadass View Post
There was no DNR. Someone was in distress. There is a duty to act.

The staff were irresponsible, but thats the norm for assisted living.

Why are people jumping to the staffs aid? And Gallium, seriously dude, your wrong, i dont care how intellectual you think you are.
Wrong with what exactly?
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Old 03-04-2013, 16:45   #177
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Originally Posted by slathrum View Post
... I do not show up and pronounce patients dead. I work the code and if the patient does not respond to resuscitation then I call for a physician to make the call, understanding that the patient has received every intervention possible and is therefor not viable for resuscitation.

The grim reality is that by the time I get there, the patient has been down for at least 10 minutes, and sometimes as much as 40. I've got a fully neurologically intact code save on a patient that was down for 30 minutes. 100% LAD blockage was the etiology. I guess I must not have a clue what I'm doing.
...
I can agree with these points. None of what you said here now is what you were saying before. Thank you for being more articulate, and concise in your terminology. What you are explaining now jives with protocol all over the states, and not what you said before.
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Old 03-04-2013, 16:50   #178
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Originally Posted by TJ Superfly View Post
I'm just a Fire fighter, not near as smart as Gallium. We have a number of assisted living facilities in the area that we cover. A couple of them won't provide lift assists to the residents. So they call us and we come over and pick them up off the ground at all hours of the day, as the staff watch us. It kind of leaves a bad taste in our mouths, but we answer when we are called. We never say no.
Why are they allowed to operate in such a manner? Could it be that they are operating within the confines of the law? Because if they weren't, their licenses wouldn't even be worth kindle starter, which is the essence of the back and forth in this thread.

According to the facility, they are part of the largest senior living community in the USA. Emotions aside, it would take a monumental ****-up by their management to create such a policy (yours, and the one that kick-started this thread) that would run counter to state law.
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Old 03-04-2013, 16:52   #179
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There appears to be exactly 3 parts to this story that matter. The rest is just people wanting to be outraged to make themselves feel better. "I'm a better person, because I would have done something!"

Here are the three relevant parts of the story:

Quote:
Unlike the skilled nursing facility and assisted living facility, the independent section does not offer medical help
#1 - this was NOT a medical facility. This was NOT a skilled nursing facility. The facility where this resident was living does NOT offer medical help, and...

Quote:
its clients know that.
#2 It doesn't appear she moved into this facility while under the impression it was a nursing home. It never was, and she was aware of this fact. She made the choice to live there anyway.

And lastly:
Quote:
We also spoke to Bayless' daughter. She said she is a nurse and she remains satisfied with the care her mother received at Glenwood Gardens.
#3 I still can't figure out why everyone else is outraged when the only person who has a legitimate right to complain....isn't. She said she's okay with the actions.



I'm not sure why the discussion is still ongoing based on the above-three statements of fact.
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Old 03-04-2013, 16:53   #180
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Can't have it both ways. What's your solution?
I didn't try to offer one.

I also didn't make emotionally charged hyperbolic statements about wallet biopsies.

Facts are facts no matter how we choose to feel about them.
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Old 03-04-2013, 16:58   #181
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
There appears to be exactly 3 parts to this story that matter. The rest is just people wanting to be outraged to make themselves feel better. "I'm a better person, because I would have done something!"

Here are the three relevant parts of the story:


#1 - this was NOT a medical facility. This was NOT a skilled nursing facility. The facility where this resident was living does NOT offer medical help, and...



#2 It doesn't appear she moved into this facility while under the impression it was a nursing home. It never was, and she was aware of this fact. She made the choice to live there anyway.

And lastly:


#3 I still can't figure out why everyone else is outraged when the only person who has a legitimate right to complain....isn't. She said she's okay with the actions.



I'm not sure why the discussion is still ongoing based on the above-three statements of fact.

Me too, and when, as the medical expert interviewed claimed the state is going to charge everyone in that facility, and pull their license, etc etc...I will perk up in interest, seeing that this is the same state that took no action against 1st responders who did not respond to a call for help because policy forbade them from assisting, and a passerby did specifically what they were hamstrung from doing.
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Old 03-04-2013, 17:10   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
I can agree with these points. None of what you said here now is what you were saying before. Thank you for being more articulate, and concise in your terminology. What you are explaining now jives with protocol all over the states, and not what you said before.
It's exactly what I was saying before. Before, I did not expound on what not transporting deceased patients means. You assumed that it meant something that it never did. And now the only way you can explain this, is to place the blame on me for allowing you to come to these conclusions because I allowed you to assume them. Wait a second, are you a politician?
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Old 03-04-2013, 17:18   #183
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Me too, and when, as the medical expert interviewed claimed the state is going to charge everyone in that facility, and pull their license, etc etc...I will perk up in interest, seeing that this is the same state that took no action against 1st responders who did not respond to a call for help because policy forbade them from assisting, and a passerby did specifically what they were hamstrung from doing.
Agreed. And I have to say, if the state starts requiring non-medical facilities to be responsible for providing medical care, I'll feel MUCH better if/when I stay at a Holiday Inn there!
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Old 03-04-2013, 17:38   #184
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
#1 - this was NOT a medical facility. This was NOT a skilled nursing facility. The facility where this resident was living does NOT offer medical help, and...
This one may get dicey. According to several of the articles, the State of California has the entire Glenwood facility listed and licensed as a "Skilled Nursing Facility". The company that owns Glenwood may internally make a distinction between the seperate buildings for accounting, revenue and staffing purposes, but if the whole facility is legally licensed by the state as "Skilled Nursing", they could be in hot water depending on what statewide standard of care policies California might have in place for such facilities as state law and licensing regulations trump corporate policy.
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Old 03-04-2013, 17:58   #185
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"According to several of the articles, the State of California has the entire Glenwood facility listed and licensed as a "Skilled Nursing Facility"."

I don't believe the CA nursing home inspectors missed this. They do highly detailed reviews for compliance to the laws and regs. It's worse than the environmental regs and paperwork (I have a buddy at the state Dept. of Environ. Quality.)

I know a woman who has inspected old folks homes for a couple of decades. I imagine CA also has badge-carrying inspectors who can shut these places down if they don't follow the rules to the letter. We used to be coworkers for a different agency, and being an old buddy I get to hear a little of the inside gossip too.
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Old 03-04-2013, 18:00   #186
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There was a "do not revive" order. That changes the whole thing. I may disagree with it, but suddenly it's not about the daughter, us or me, it's about the person who collapsed. It was her decision.


That being said, I can't believe how bad the transcript was. "yeah, no we don't do that here" is something I would expect from walmart.
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Old 03-04-2013, 18:56   #187
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It's exactly what I was saying before. Before, I did not expound on what not transporting deceased patients means. You assumed that it meant something that it never did. And now the only way you can explain this, is to place the blame on me for allowing you to come to these conclusions because I allowed you to assume them. Wait a second, are you a politician?
Yes,

because this:
Quote:
...Also, EMS crews do not typically transport out of hospital cardiac arrests. Unless you obtain a return of spontaneous circulation or there is reason to believe a specialized higher level of care would be beneficial, then the deceased stays put. The reason, of course, is that quite frankly we are better at running codes. Period. Unless you are a trauma surgeon at a Level 1 facility, your care is either inferior or redundant, thus negating the need for transport.

and this -
Quote:
... I do not show up and pronounce patients dead. I work the code and if the patient does not respond to resuscitation then I call for a physician to make the call, understanding that the patient has received every intervention possible and is therefor not viable for resuscitation.

The grim reality is that by the time I get there, the patient has been down for at least 10 minutes, and sometimes as much as 40. I've got a fully neurologically intact code save on a patient that was down for 30 minutes. 100% LAD blockage was the etiology. I guess I must not have a clue what I'm doing.
are exactly the same.

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Old 03-04-2013, 19:25   #188
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Originally Posted by eccho View Post
There was a "do not revive" order. That changes the whole thing. I may disagree with it, but suddenly it's not about the daughter, us or me, it's about the person who collapsed. It was her decision.


That being said, I can't believe how bad the transcript was. "yeah, no we don't do that here" is something I would expect from walmart.
Is there a link to this? I ask because just today the Bakersfield Fire Department issued a report confirming that there was not a DNR in place for the victim. (see link in post #157)
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Old 03-04-2013, 19:31   #189
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I listened to the 911 recording. After listening I think Nurse Ratchet should be euthanized! Heaven forbid she helps someone else.
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Old 03-04-2013, 19:53   #190
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There were (supposedly) trained professionals right there who couldn't or wouldn't lift a finger to help someone who was having an acute medical emergency for the 7 minutes it took for fire to arrive. That's bull****.
Thank you!

I've been following this since it broke, and I was absolutely astonished beyond belief, listening to the 911 transcript. Truthfully, I feel most sorry for the dispatcher who got the call!

I cannot tell you, in words, how much money I'd sue this place out of existence if this was one of my loved ones. I'd make sure NOBODY who worked there EVER AGAIN got a job in the ENTIRE state. And I'd see the entire company go broke.

In short, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams, and able to give my late loved one a proper funeral.
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Old 03-04-2013, 20:00   #191
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Thank you!

I've been following this since it broke, and I was absolutely astonished beyond belief, listening to the 911 transcript. Truthfully, I feel most sorry for the dispatcher who got the call!

I cannot tell you, in words, how much money I'd sue this place out of existence if this was one of my loved ones. I'd make sure NOBODY who worked there EVER AGAIN got a job in the ENTIRE state. And I'd see the entire company go broke.

In short, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams, and able to give my late loved one a proper funeral.

Prepare to have your head exploded then:

http://www.johnobrienlaw.com/news/ma...ls-questioned/
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Old 03-04-2013, 20:01   #192
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Originally Posted by Jade Falcon View Post
I cannot tell you, in words, how much money I'd sue this place out of existence if this was one of my loved ones. I'd make sure NOBODY who worked there EVER AGAIN got a job in the ENTIRE state. And I'd see the entire company go broke.

In short, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams, and able to give my late loved one a proper funeral.
Actually, from all reports, you would lose. The assisted living (NOT nursing!) home had it in their contract that they did not provide medical assistance. The resident signed that contract. The resident's family knew that was the case.

You can't sign a contract and then sue when you don't like the terms of the contract after the fact.
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Old 03-04-2013, 20:10   #193
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Actually, from all reports, you would lose. The assisted living (NOT nursing!) home had it in their contract that they did not provide medical assistance. The resident signed that contract. The resident's family knew that was the case.

You can't sign a contract and then sue when you don't like the terms of the contract after the fact.
SURELY there is a law SOMEWHERE that says that a reasonable person is required to TRY to render medical assistance, regardless of policies.

So you'd be happy with your grandmother/mother/aunt, etc. just laying on the carpet, with a nurse/employee/whatever standing over them....doing what? Staring at her? Poking her with thier shoe? Yelling at her?

Bull**** sir.
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Old 03-04-2013, 20:26   #194
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There was a "do not revive" order. That changes the whole thing. I may disagree with it, but suddenly it's not about the daughter, us or me, it's about the person who collapsed. It was her decision.


That being said, I can't believe how bad the transcript was. "yeah, no we don't do that here" is something I would expect from walmart.
I spoke with some in the know and she advised that CPR on the aged is an extremely risky process as far as breaking ribs, puncturing/damaging lungs, internal bleeding and on and on she went about stuff I've never heard of going wrong doing CPR.

OTOH, the nurses where she works are experts at airways and administering 02, but they'll rely on portable defibrillators before doing anything closely resembling classic CPR.


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Old 03-04-2013, 20:29   #195
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SURELY there is a law SOMEWHERE that says that a reasonable person is required to TRY to render medical assistance, regardless of policies.
"THERE OUGHTA BE A LAW!"



It's funny how people can claim to be for freedom but in the same breath say there should be laws that compel people to do things.

Common decency should have made someone try to render medical assistance, but there should definitely NOT be laws forcing people to render aid if they choose not to. If someone want to stand by a dying person and point and laugh... well they're a horrible human being and I'm not ok with it, but I'm far more "not ok" with there being a law compelling that person to render assistance.
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Old 03-04-2013, 21:10   #196
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Originally Posted by Jade Falcon View Post
SURELY there is a law SOMEWHERE that says that a reasonable person is required to TRY to render medical assistance, regardless of policies.

So you'd be happy with your grandmother/mother/aunt, etc. just laying on the carpet, with a nurse/employee/whatever standing over them....doing what? Staring at her? Poking her with thier shoe? Yelling at her?

Bull**** sir.
I will have you know, "sir", that it has been less than a year since my aunt was buried. She was unable to eat and refused a feeding tube. He life could have been extend had someone such as yourself taken it upon themselves to impose their views over her wishes. She, essentially, starved to death due to complications.

Don't presume to know anything about me and then try to dictate what you THINK I would do.

This woman was a resident of her own free will in what amounts to a hotel. It was NOT a medical facility.


By all means, though, scream and yell for more government intervention into private lives. Because that can NEVER go wrong, can it?
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Old 03-04-2013, 23:12   #197
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I don't know if it has discussed, but does anyone know what level of training this "nurse" had? It is entirely possible she (and the others present) were not cpr certified. A good Samaritan can wing about any medical procedure they want and get by with it. However for a "medical professional" to perform a service that goes beyond the scope of their training can be a big issue, even if it seems like such a simple task like CPR. If you're the nurse and you decided to perform a procedure that goes beyond the scope of your training whose ass is on the line? Yours, and in turn your employer's.
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Old 03-04-2013, 23:18   #198
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I listened to the 911 recording. After listening I think Nurse Ratchet should be euthanized! Heaven forbid she helps someone else.
I heard it as well, pretty disturbing. The nurse was so blah and from her voice like she didn't give a F!
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Old 03-04-2013, 23:23   #199
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I don't know if it has discussed, but does anyone know what level of training this "nurse" had? It is entirely possible she (and the others present) were not cpr certified. A good Samaritan can wing about any medical procedure they want and get by with it. However for a "medical professional" to perform a service that goes beyond the scope of their training can be a big issue, even if it seems like such a simple task like CPR. If you're the nurse and you decided to perform a procedure that goes beyond the scope of your training whose ass is on the line? Yours, and in turn your employer's.
Well the 911 operator did say that they took full responsibility for the call, idk how much weight that holds though.
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Old 03-04-2013, 23:51   #200
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Quit grasping for straws and snide comments.
Huh. Snide comments?

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You don't know what you're talking about,so be quiet for a little while and learn somethings.
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Your middle school is a more likely candidate for a lawsuit, based on your awful, piss-poor display of lack of reading comprehension, and inability to connect-the-dots.
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Based on your sterling history in this thread of incorrect inferences, you've not made a positive impression that you are reading and interpreting data as it is being presented.

If you are so inclined , I can carefully deconstruct your hypotheses, starting with where I 1st quoted you, backed up by statistics. It's not very hard.

I have not provided anything constructive to the dialogue because you have nothing to learn. You already know everything.
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I cannot fathom how you arrived at that conclusion from his statement. I did not.
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No. I questioned your mindset, based on the SLEW of very poor assumptions you have made in this thread, then reversing yourself, then attempting to paper over them.

GO BACK AND READ YOUR STATEMENTS. PRETEND YOU WERE OFFERING TESTIMONY - see how much your statements SUCK.
Just a few of the gems you have posted in this thread.

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I never assume when I post on GT that anything I say is "important". There are instances when and where I am paid to speak, and to teach. Even in those instances I do not assume what I am saying is important.
Not so. You have, at the least, narcissistic personality disorder. Clear evidence for your feelings of self-importance can be seen here in your need to critique the majority of posts in this thread:

The Okie Corral

And finally, this false promise:

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goodnight slathrum. You should give it a rest...

From this point forward, I will not respond to anymore of your posts, but will simply smile and nod and keep on moving.
Like a textbook narcissist you couldn't resist responding to his comments later in the thread.

Good night Gallium. From this point forward I will not respond to anymore of your posts, but will smile and nod.
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