GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2013, 14:04   #101
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
The article explicitly states that the patient did NOT have a DNR in place, so unless you are operating under the assumption that the article is lying, the statement above is a non-starter.

The words we choose and use are important. The correct phrasing you should be seeking here is: "...so unless you are operating under the assumption that the article is "factually incorrect". The media has had errors in reporting in multiple instances - the Sandy Hook/Newtown shooting being a more recent example.
To use the term "lying" shows you are arguing way behind the bias curve. We can all admit that the media at times get things wrong, without any intent of malfeasance or guile.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Going off of the article and 911 call transcript the central facts present here are:

1) The patient went into what appeared to be cardiac arrest.

2) A group of nurses on duty in the area called 911, but then refused to do what the 911 operator asked, which was to start CPR until the ambulance could arrive. They kept this refusal up for 7 minutes while the 911 operator begged them to do something, at one point even going so far as to respond "yes" when asked directly by the 911 operator if their intention was to simply watch the lady die and do nothing to intervene.

3) The patient in question did not have a DNR in place.

1. We don't know if she went into cardiac arrest at that time. The person on the phone at the nursing home side said she took "three breaths". Granted, this could be agonal breathing, but none of us who have posted in this thread so far has claimed to have seen the woman's file, or treated the woman. (If she was indeed breathing she was not in true cardiac arrest)

2. There is nothing in anything I saw from the 1st post in this thread to indicate there were a "group of nurses on duty". If you can point it out, I stand corrected.

The article says "someone called 911" and then Glenwood Gardens personnel handed the phone to the nurse.

Where are the group of nurses?

So to summarize, you have interpreted things to be facts where those "facts" are not present.

Last edited by Gallium; 03-03-2013 at 14:05..
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:22   #102
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by slathrum View Post
You first. What exactly is your qualification? You made a reference to being a physician; I am not just pulling that out of the air. I suppose you are right, I did make those assumptions. Anyone who knows what's what knows I'm likely right. Gallium, just because you open your mouth, doesn't necessarily mean you have something important to say. Dang it, there I go with assumptions again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
He never said or implied that he is a physician.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slathrum View Post
Well then...bye. I admitted to the assumptions because I made them, not to placate your ego or need to be right. What has been lost on you, is that there is truth in those assumptions. Oh well.

I pointed out your assumptions with no bearing on my "ego", but to show you how flawed your thinking on this issue is. There are no "truths" in assumptions! Only possibilities. It is only when assumptions are proven that we can go back and say that there are truths.

Furthermore, your assumptions...you have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty about the assumptions you are claiming. Last, you are basing your entire argument on assumptions, instead of being open-minded. Your mindset is the worst kind in the field of medicine. People who think like you are those sorts of people (the ones who cling to assumptions instead of being dispassionate and fact seeking) who end up causing mistakes, delaying diagnosis and treatment and ultimately costs lives.


Gallium. - 40k posts on GT makes me some sort of PhD, I would hope. (that was a joke, so don't hyper extend any ligaments leaping to more conclusive assumptions )
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:24   #103
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,270


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
The words we choose and use are important. The correct phrasing you should be seeking here is: "...so unless you are operating under the assumption that the article is "factually incorrect". The media has had errors in reporting in multiple instances - the Sandy Hook/Newtown shooting being a more recent example.
To use the term "lying" shows you are arguing way behind the bias curve. We can all admit that the media at times get things wrong, without any intent of malfeasance or guile.
An "error" is misspelling a name, leaving out a detail or some other innocent slip-up. Actively asserting in the article that a DNR did not exist when in fact one did is a few steps beyond that.

If that's what you call "bias", so be it. I call it "holding the press accountable for the accuracy of what they write."
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:31   #104
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,270


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post

Where are the group of nurses?

So to summarize, you have interpreted things to be facts where those "facts" are not present.
I said, "group of nurses" when I should have said "group of employees which included at least one nurse". (the nurse even identified herself as such on the 911 call and gave her name)

That's not much of a correction...

__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by tsmo1066; 03-03-2013 at 14:32..
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:57   #105
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
An "error" is misspelling a name, leaving out a detail or some other innocent slip-up. Actively asserting in the article that a DNR did not exist when in fact one did is a few steps beyond that.

If that's what you call "bias", so be it. I call it "holding the press accountable for the accuracy of what they write."
In the above instance (supported by past actions of the media, no wild haired assumptions on my part) they (media) are most likely reported what they have been told. They cannot independently confirm the existence of a DNR UNLESS the daughter gives them a copy, as it is a part of the patient medical record.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
I said, "group of nurses" when I should have said "group of employees which included at least one nurse". (the nurse even identified herself as such on the 911 call and gave her name)

That's not much of a correction...

You're right. I can only imagine the size of the enlarged ass hole you'd be ripped by Ollie's Revenge's attorney (hypothetically speaking, of course ) on the stand for your libelous statement when it is your turn for the bright lights of cross examination to be shined on you.

I bet he could find an lawyer would would agree.


In summary, two can play stupid games, or we can speak rationally and intelligently about an issue. If I am wrong about anything in this thread I will be THE THIRD (behind you and slatrum, I ASSUME) to make corrections.

Have a nice evening. There is a light coating of snow outside. I am off to chase ambulances (maybe I am a dog?).
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:08   #106
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,270


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
In the above instance (supported by past actions of the media, no wild haired assumptions on my part) they (media) are most likely reported what they have been told. They cannot independently confirm the existence of a DNR UNLESS the daughter gives them a copy, as it is a part of the patient medical record.
Wrong. If the news reporter couldn't find out whether or not a DNR existed, the simple course would be to not say one way or another. If the reporter chooses to actively and positively assert that a DNR did not exist, that reporter has a responsibility to check their facts first.

I don't give free passes to the media simply because of "past actions" where they have lied before.
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:36   #107
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Wrong. If the news reporter couldn't find out whether or not a DNR existed, the simple course would be to not say one way or another. If the reporter chooses to actively and positively assert that a DNR did not exist, that reporter has a responsibility to check their facts first.

I don't give free passes to the media simply because of "past actions" where they have lied before.

If you get a chance, I'd love you to post a picture of the skyline from Mars. Also please do advise for how long you've owned those rose colored glasses.

You, like at least one other person in this thread is speaking of what "should be", versus the reality of what is.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:46   #108
Halojumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 9,930
Send a message via AIM to Halojumper Send a message via Yahoo to Halojumper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
edit to add: someone very shortly will jump on my explanation above. Later tonight or in the morning I will clean it up/edit/expound.
Good idea, seeing how it's totally wrong.
Halojumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:47   #109
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by faceplant View Post
That is the save rate for a particular type of cardiac arrest. Your overall rate is around 16%. Still very good. Do you have the stats for people in this age group?
I'd be interested in reading about the overall rate being 16%, do you have a link?

I don't have stats for the save rate of people in their high eighties. And I'm not sure if Dr Eisenberg parses the data by age group... it's possible, I'm just not sure. My guess is the save rate declines as age increases, but that doesn't provide justification for writing people off just because they look "old".

Quote:
Originally Posted by faceplant View Post
So your telling us the areas only Level I trauma center has to call the fire dept for ET tube help.?
Yep, that's what I'm telling you, and it's the truth. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but occasionally it does. If ER staff is having trouble getting a tube they apparently aren't afraid of calling for help. Kudos to them I say. Seattle Fire Medics drop more tubes than just about anyone in this area, and they are really good. They also have a station that houses two Medic units right at Harborview, and they are trained at Harborview, so there is some familiarity there.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 17:11   #110
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,181


So this in basically an elderly apartment complex owned by the same people who own the nursing home and assisted care.

So we might as well be talking about someone dying in the aparment complex across the street from the local hospital.
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 17:36   #111
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,270


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
If you get a chance, I'd love you to post a picture of the skyline from Mars. Also please do advise for how long you've owned those rose colored glasses.

You, like at least one other person in this thread is speaking of what "should be", versus the reality of what is.
"Should be"? Sorry, but YOU are the one taking what is stated in the article (no DNR) and substituting other assumptions simply because they fit your bias better.

You're also ignoring common sense in the process. There is no law against sharing patient information with 911 emergency operators and responders in critical medical situations as faiure to do so places the survival of the patient at unnecessary additional risk. Even setting the article's point-blank statement about there not being a DNR aside, anyone with an element of common sense would realize that if a DNR existed, and the nurse knew as much, at SOME point during the lengthy, 7 minute long, 911 discussion the nurse would likely mention as much instead of simply repeating company policy statements over and over while the patient slowly died.

But hey, that's in addition to the article's flat-out assertion that a DNR didn't exist - an assertion that you have produced no factual information to contradict.

So how's that view from Mars?
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by tsmo1066; 03-03-2013 at 17:39..
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 17:58   #112
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
And you know that the law is not identical in every state.
The case I referenced earlier - same state (CA), where 1st responders stood by for an hour and watched a man drown in less than 3ft of water, because policy stated they could not assist, due to not recertifying, and not having the specific gear required for that type of rescue. Eventually a nurse passing by simply walked out there, grabbed the dude and started running CPR on him.
That is one I haven't heard. Thanks for the link, I can use that. It's a great example of how not to do it. Those guys made Alameda Fire look like buffoons due to their inaction.

This kind of thing has more to do with Dept. policy rather than City or State law. Sometimes the "white shirts" don't always make the best decisions.

I have run into a similar situation in my Dept. A bunch of us were sent to 'Surface water rescue swimmer' training in '09. In the wake of our 1st water entry that summer (which I was a part of), the Assistant Chief of Ops. sent out a memo stating that "members shall not carry personal water rescue equipment on the apparatus". He didn't say we couldn't enter the water, just that we couldn't carry "personal" gear. He was concerned about City liability in case we got hurt. In subsequent water rescue incidents, our members have entered the water with gear... in spite of the memo... 'cause it's what the public expects.

Here's how the letter to the Chief could read --

"Dear Chief,

Sorry I disregarded the memo. We were dispatched to XXX address, and upon arrival there was a mother and family members frantically urging us to help find their missing child in the water. We had to make a decision, and we chose the course of action that we felt would be most closely aligned with the Dept's mission, and that would spare the Dept from negative publicity...."


Had the Bakersfield staff done CPR and spared themselves the negative press, they could have written a similar letter to their employer, if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
This is a poor long term plan. It is mind boggling that a Level 1 trauma center with 1200 physicians on roster is calling outside of the facility to 911 to get a paramedic to do a trache tube. I am not casting doubt on your story. From a emergency management perspective it would be far more cost effective and risk averse in the long run to have those skills sets sharpened for in house personnel.
It's not a long term plan as much as it is a response to an occasional extreme circumstance. There is only one way to get really good at doing tubes, and that is to do alot of tubes. Medics just happen to do alot more tubes than most, and like I said their downtown quarters is right there at the hospital.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
On the part that I have highlighted, on playing God...my sister was on (mostly artificial) life support for approximately 36 days. She was incapable of breathing on her own, was comatose, was mostly unresponsive to external stimuli, had pneumonia, fluids accumulating in her lungs (she went in with severely diminished respiratory capacity, one lung was compromised, the other was affected), her systems were shutting down...she started accumulating fluids in the wrong places....I pulled the plug at the onset of necrosis, but not after a fairly bitter struggle with family members AND HER CHURCH, who were adamant and insistent that taking her off life support was contravening God's will. They started almost round the clock vigils by her hospital room, making our lives more stressful than it was or needed to be.

Sometimes we play God when we intervene. It is a very delicate balance knowing where to tread. I have already stated my positions on what I would, and would not do.
- G
I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your sister and your experience. Though that sounds like more of an end of life wishes case, which is different than what we are discussing here. It appears aunt Gladys didn't have a DNR. Since caregivers have the ability to save lives, they should default to doing CPR. Anything less will bring shame, potential liability, and negative publicity to them.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 18:01   #113
Glock&KimberLady
Booyah!
 
Glock&KimberLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Glassing Yer Eyeball, ID
Posts: 10,861


Just a side,note - am I the only one who thinks that nurse sounded stoned off her ass during that call?
__________________
I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive safely at the door of death.
Glock&KimberLady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 18:24   #114
jdeere_man
CLM Number 26
Charter Lifetime Member
 
jdeere_man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NW Missouri
Posts: 3,538
I don't know how this will pan out when all the details emerge, but my observations.

The lady in question resided at an Independent Living Facility, apparently separate from the Assisted Living Facility. If the lady was not the nurse's patient (from a technical standpoint) she would not be legally required to render services I doubt. Now from an ethical standpoint maybe, maybe not, depending how she looks at it. That comes down to a judgement call on her part. What she did know was company policy. It was against company policy (to perform CPR on someone who wasn't your patient?) and she wanted to retain her job. I'm not sure where she was eating, if she was eating at this Independent Facility or was eating as a guest at the Assisted Facility. If she was a guest at the Assisted Facility for lunch, that doesn't make her their patient. If she was at an "Independent" facility why are there nurses anyway? Is the entire grounds of the myriad of facilities classified as a "skilled nursing facility"? If it is, and the "Independent facility" falls under some state classification as a "skilled nursing facility" they are probably going to have issues. There are several questions I didn't immediately see the answers to.

In response to some other posts in this thread, In my experience CPR has not been particularly successful. I've done it 5 times, no times were successful and all included the use of an AED. That's not to say it isn't worth trying. To me it is always worth trying as long as someone doesn't hand you a DNR. However a person standing there saying there is a DNR is not enough, it must be provided. That's irrelevant in this case because there was no DNR. I don't think anyone (involved) assumed there was a DNR. As far as I can tell the nurse refused to initiate CPR on someone who wasn't her patient in accordance with company policy. Now if it turns out the lady was her patient she and the company are probably going to have a problem.

In our area a cardiac patient (or any patient for that matter) would always be transported (priority one no doubt) to the ER with cpr continued on the way. They let the ER doctor declare death. The exception would be if the patient is obviously cold and stiff in which case the coroner would be dispatched.

I think there are a lot of assumptions being made by the news media as usual to spin a "good story." I think full details will help make this more clear.
__________________
Be weary of a summit that begins with sharing bread; for the sated man is at his weakest.
jdeere_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 19:15   #115
slathrum
Senior Member
 
slathrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 237
Send a message via Yahoo to slathrum
Good grief Gallium, I thought you were done with me! Guess not. So far, I have yet to see you add anything constructive to this discussion. Your sole mission seems to be telling everyone else how wrong they are. The irony is that you can't even refute anything I've said any more than I can prove it, which I've not tried to do.

You accuse me of assumptions like your condemnation of them has any merit. It's not like I presented them as facts. Yes, I responded saying I didn't make any assumptions initially. I really didn't think you were so obtuse as to be drawing the conclusion that my hypotheses based on actual experience were intended to be presented as fact. You completely ignored the context of my suggestions in an apparent attempt to make yourself appear knowledgeable. Guessing again here, but I would imagine that's probably why you broke your silence, and yes...that is an "assumption" too.

Riddle me this: How is it you can assume that I am the sort of person that makes mistakes, delays diagnosis and ultimately causes lives to be lost? You got some sort of proof to back that up, or are we going on some sort of assumption that I'm a person that operates on passion and not facts? By the way, I actually do both.

Sorry, I don't sit behind a desk though. I don't have the luxury of pulling out a book while someone is counting on me to intervene in a critical moment. You have no idea what has gone into my training and how I employ that when it's needed. There's no possible way you could know that I typically operate 30 to 90 minutes from the nearest ER. If someone's having a life-threatening emergency, I'm the only one that's going to be able to perform an ALS procedure in time if they need one, and at best I have an EMT and a group of minimally-trained volunteers to assist me. All together, we do a damned fine job and have saved more than a few lives. Every day I'm on the job, I use my training mixed with a healthy dose of common sense and what experience I have too to make decisions that require that level of care. You don't know this, because you don't know me or just what it takes to actually do my job. Whatever it is you actually do, you're not nearly as enlightened as you think you are.

Last edited by slathrum; 03-03-2013 at 21:22..
slathrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 20:22   #116
Current Resident
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Motor City
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 View Post
I wouldn't mind changing a few involved tunes with a 3' sand filled piece of garden hose.

As I read this I was thinking of a SOAP PARTY
Current Resident is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 21:30   #117
faceplant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
I'd be interested in reading about the overall rate being 16%, do you have a link?

I don't have stats for the save rate of people in their high eighties. And I'm not sure if Dr Eisenberg parses the data by age group... it's possible, I'm just not sure. My guess is the save rate declines as age increases, but that doesn't provide justification for writing people off just because they look "old".



Yep, that's what I'm telling you, and it's the truth. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but occasionally it does. If ER staff is having trouble getting a tube they apparently aren't afraid of calling for help. Kudos to them I say. Seattle Fire Medics drop more tubes than just about anyone in this area, and they are really good. They also have a station that houses two Medic units right at Harborview, and they are trained at Harborview, so there is some familiarity there.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/26...fit/index.html

Many from the same time period. Your actual rates for VF is above 50% with the most recent. Again your considered the best in the country for this particular event but overall it is about 1/3 of that rate.

It makes no sense to me that a hospital of that standing does not have the in house resources such as the surgical staff that drop tubes all day long and have to make a call to Seattle Fire for help.
faceplant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 21:46   #118
slathrum
Senior Member
 
slathrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 237
Send a message via Yahoo to slathrum
Quote:
Originally Posted by faceplant View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/26...fit/index.html

Many from the same time period. Your actual rates for VF is above 50% with the most recent. Again your considered the best in the country for this particular event but overall it is about 1/3 of that rate.

It makes no sense to me that a hospital of that standing does not have the in house resources such as the surgical staff that drop tubes all day long and have to make a call to Seattle Fire for help.
The reason might be that the only other people in the hospital that are particularly good at dropping tubes are CRNAs and anesthesiologists, who are usually busy anesthetizing patients for surgery. The rest of the physicians are busy working in specialties that never see the need to intubate and typically suck at it. I could be wrong, but I doubt there is ever any extra cost when this happens. It's usually more a matter of an extra body that can intubate being needed, and it just so happens a paramedic who can is close-by. It happens from time to time in smaller community hospitals too from what I've seen.
slathrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 01:41   #119
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
"Should be"? Sorry, but YOU are the one taking what is stated in the article (no DNR) and substituting other assumptions simply because they fit your bias better.
Dude, I am not inferring there is a DNR, or no DNR. I am saying if there is a DNR, the facility could not share that actual DNR with the media, only the HCP for the patient could do that.

If there IS no DNR - as is being reported, the facility is still restricted from sharing this information. That was my point.

So the media has no way of conclusively proving there is a DNR /no DNR unless they get evidence of such from the deceased's family.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
You're also ignoring common sense in the process. There is no law against sharing patient information with 911 emergency operators and responders in critical medical situations as failure to do so places the survival of the patient at unnecessary additional risk. Even setting the article's point-blank statement about there not being a DNR aside, anyone with an element of common sense would realize that if a DNR existed, and the nurse knew as much, at SOME point during the lengthy, 7 minute long, 911 discussion the nurse would likely mention as much instead of simply repeating company policy statements over and over while the patient slowly died.
I was not addressing DNRs as it relates to patient care, only with regards to the media statement.
You also are excluding the possibility that the nurse works at facility A and the deceased resided at facility B.

Last edited by Gallium; 03-04-2013 at 01:48..
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 01:46   #120
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by slathrum View Post
Good grief Gallium, I thought you were done with me! Guess not. So far, I have yet to see you add anything constructive to this discussion. Your sole mission seems to be telling everyone else how wrong they are. The irony is that you can't even refute anything I've said any more than I can prove it, which I've not tried to do.

You accuse me of assumptions like your condemnation of them has any merit. It's not like I presented them as facts. Yes, I responded saying I didn't make any assumptions initially. I really didn't think you were so obtuse as to be drawing the conclusion that my hypotheses based on actual experience were intended to be presented as fact. You completely ignored the context of my suggestions in an apparent attempt to make yourself appear knowledgeable. Guessing again here, but I would imagine that's probably why you broke your silence, and yes...that is an "assumption" too.

Riddle me this: How is it you can assume that I am the sort of person that makes mistakes, delays diagnosis and ultimately causes lives to be lost? You got some sort of proof to back that up, or are we going on some sort of assumption that I'm a person that operates on passion and not facts? By the way, I actually do both.

Sorry, I don't sit behind a desk though. I don't have the luxury of pulling out a book while someone is counting on me to intervene in a critical moment. You have no idea what has gone into my training and how I employ that when it's needed. There's no possible way you could know that I typically operate 30 to 90 minutes from the nearest ER. If someone's having a life-threatening emergency, I'm the only one that's going to be able to perform an ALS procedure in time if they need one, and at best I have an EMT and a group of minimally-trained volunteers to assist me. All together, we do a damned fine job and have saved more than a few lives. Every day I'm on the job, I use my training mixed with a healthy dose of common sense and what experience I have too to make decisions that require that level of care. You don't know this, because you don't know me or just what it takes to actually do my job. Whatever it is you actually do, you're not nearly as enlightened as you think you are.

Thank you for riding a bus. Society needs every volley and paid 1st responder it can get.

Based on your sterling history in this thread of incorrect inferences, you've not made a positive impression that you are reading and interpreting data as it is being presented.

If you are so inclined , I can carefully deconstruct your hypotheses, starting with where I 1st quoted you, backed up by statistics. It's not very hard.

I have not provided anything constructive to the dialogue because you have nothing to learn. You already know everything.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 05:29   #121
JohnBT
NRA Patron
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 6,255
"Independent Living Facility, apparently separate from the Assisted Living Facility. If the lady was not the nurse's patient (from a technical standpoint) she would not be legally required to render services I doubt. "

I just watched a video on the ABC News site - only the state of Vermont has a law that requires a person to come to the aid of another. According to their expert, what the facility did was legal.

Heck, Virginia nursing home regs only require ONE person on duty to know CPR. A lot of good that does in a multi-building operation with independent living, assisted living and nursing home operations on the same campus.
JohnBT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:12   #122
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by faceplant View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/26...fit/index.html

Many from the same time period. Your actual rates for VF is above 50% with the most recent. Again your considered the best in the country for this particular event but overall it is about 1/3 of that rate.

It makes no sense to me that a hospital of that standing does not have the in house resources such as the surgical staff that drop tubes all day long and have to make a call to Seattle Fire for help.
Thanks for the link.

As for the SFD tubes done at Harborview -- it seems like that has become a tangential sticking point for some. It is a fact - but it was just an example of how it's possible for a hospital to call 911 while it is delivering Pt. care.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:23   #123
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
So this in basically an elderly apartment complex owned by the same people who own the nursing home and assisted care.

So we might as well be talking about someone dying in the apartment complex across the street from the local hospital.

How did you arrive this conclusion, Ray9898?
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:26   #124
Peace Warrior
CLM Number 221
Am Yisrael Chai
 
Peace Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: With the other 7,999,999
Posts: 26,190
Blog Entries: 2
Read about this earlier and called someone I know in the field.

Cloudy waters for sure, but there is a "legitimacy" to the do not give CPR rule/policy. Tough phone call for the 911 operator's sense of what was right for sure.

As for me, the least the nurse on scene could have done was clear the airway/make sure it was clear. There is no policy preventing that type of help according to my friend.
__________________
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" - Josey Wales
Peace Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:35   #125
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
Thanks for the link.

As for the SFD tubes done at Harborview -- it seems like that has become a tangential sticking point for some. It is a fact - but it was just an example of how it's possible for a hospital to call 911 while it is delivering Pt. care.
Is this information in the public domain?
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:50.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 834
183 Members
651 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42