GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2013, 07:51   #76
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,161
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Superfly View Post
The lawyers will be all over this one. Nonfeasance for sure.
You Need a victim, or must have some standing to make a claim.
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 07:52   #77
MtBaldy
Obie Wan, RIP
 
MtBaldy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: At the beach
Posts: 15,946


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBT View Post
" A friend of mine recently had an accident on his motor scooter."

Was the available ER staff on duty trained to evaluate and move a person with possible spinal injuries and head injuries?

.
There was at least one ER physician on duty IN the ER. I'm sure there were other physicians on duty in the rest of the hospital the ER is attached to. Fear of liability made them willing to let someone die rather than help and risk a lawsuit.
__________________
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury."
― Elmer T Peterson
MtBaldy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 08:07   #78
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,161
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
Me too. Multiple times. We have a good save rate here in Seattle.
BS...
Save as they are on a tube and then die after raking up tens of thousands of dollars in care never regaining consciousness ... That would be the case for 95% plus of your saves in that age group after a full arrest...

OR do you have actual data to back and quantify your Good save rate and what it means a week down the road.
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 08:15   #79
slathrum
Senior Member
 
slathrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 237
Send a message via Yahoo to slathrum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
BS...
Save as they are on a tube and then die after raking up tens of thousands of dollars in care never regaining consciousness ... That would be the case for 95% plus of your saves in that age group after a full arrest...

OR do you have actual data to back and quantify your Good save rate and what it means a week down the road.
You have a point, but if we're talking about Seattle then yeah, they have numbers to back it up.
slathrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 08:36   #80
Paul53
Geezer Boomer
 
Paul53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Rosa's Cantina
Posts: 3,825
We don't know the women's medical condition and standing orders. She may have been terminally ill, or had a DNR (do not resuscitate) order in place. HIPPA prevents the facility from disclosing these. The patients daughter is quoted as being satisfied with the care given. Let's wait till we have all the facts! She may have had a written directive refusing CPR also.

OR:

The medical director and insurance company determine what the staff can and cant do. If the staff did CPR, they'd lose their jobs.

Money is more important than life in America!

I keep trying to make people understand this, but they can't or wont wrap their minds around it!
__________________
Just had lunch at The Rod and Gun Club. Finally realized that the in "philly cheese steak," philly isn't referring to Philadelphia.


Last edited by Paul53; 03-04-2013 at 11:41..
Paul53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 08:52   #81
sputnik767
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by nursetim View Post
Hey y'all look up DNR. If the daughter reaction is any indication, a DNR may well have been in place.
This was my first question, and is what I suspect is going on. That article was very one-sided. I would bet that the patient was DNR/DNI, which is why the staff did not intervene. Let's not rush to vilify the facility without this very important piece of information being known.
sputnik767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 09:14   #82
Halojumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 9,930
Send a message via AIM to Halojumper Send a message via Yahoo to Halojumper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
but statistically improbable, and very unlikely.
Aren't those the same thing?
Halojumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 09:32   #83
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
BS...
Save as they are on a tube and then die after raking up tens of thousands of dollars in care never regaining consciousness ... That would be the case for 95% plus of your saves in that age group after a full arrest...

OR do you have actual data to back and quantify your Good save rate and what it means a week down the road.
Seattle's save rates are well known in the EMS world. Their witnessed VF save rates typically hover at 45% - as measured using the Utstein protocol, which only includes those who leave the hospital without brain damage.

A quick Google search of "Seattle cardiac arrest save rates" will confirm that. Dr Mickey Eisenberg, Dr Michael Copass, and Dr Leonard Cobb, would be good search names, to find out about the program behind the numbers.

Glad I could help!
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 09:33   #84
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,596
According to CBS Los Angeles, the LA County Prosecutor is weighing criminal charges in this case and the state is considering license revocations for both facility and staff.

Quoted in part:


“As an employee of a licensed skilled nursing facility they are obligated to do more than call 911 and watch aunt Gladys die,” said CBS2 Legal Analyst Steve Meister.

The state calls Glenwood Gardens a “skilled nursing facility” and Meister says regardless of the facility’s policies there are state and federal obligations and the facility could face many lawsuits including criminal charges.

“Every person in the facility and the owner of the facility could be looking at license revocation from the state and they could be charged criminally on the theory of homicide,” Meister said.

Doctor Horowitz says the nurse on the tape had an obligation to at least try to save the woman’s life. “From the bio ethics viewpoint what should she have done? Something! What did she do? Embarrassed all of us who are licensed health care professionals.”
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 10:23   #85
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
According to CBS Los Angeles, the LA County Prosecutor is weighing criminal charges in this case and the state is considering license revocations for both facility and staff.

Quoted in part:


“As an employee of a licensed skilled nursing facility they are obligated to do more than call 911 and watch aunt Gladys die,” said CBS2 Legal Analyst Steve Meister.

The state calls Glenwood Gardens a “skilled nursing facility” and Meister says regardless of the facility’s policies there are state and federal obligations and the facility could face many lawsuits including criminal charges.

“Every person in the facility and the owner of the facility could be looking at license revocation from the state and they could be charged criminally on the theory of homicide,” Meister said.

Doctor Horowitz says the nurse on the tape had an obligation to at least try to save the woman’s life. “From the bio ethics viewpoint what should she have done? Something! What did she do? Embarrassed all of us who are licensed health care professionals.”


Interesting. We will see how it shakes out.

Also, the part I have highlighted is simply not going to happen, and everyone knows it.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:06   #86
MedicOni
Senior Member
 
MedicOni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central NM
Posts: 2,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 View Post
There were (supposedly) trained professionals right there who couldn't or wouldn't lift a finger to help someone who was having an acute medical emergency for the 7 minutes it took for fire to arrive. That's bull****.
How is it different than a hospital calling 911 because something happenned in their parking lot? It's a 'liability' issue.
__________________
NREMT-P
MedicOni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:14   #87
pipedreams
Member
 
pipedreams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
The medical director and insurance company determine what the staff can and cant do. If the staff did CPR, they'd lose their jobs.

Money is more important than life in America!

I keep trying to make people understand this, but they can't or wont wrap their minds around it!
This................
If it is not billable don't touch or get them out the door as fast as possible.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
GOA Life Member


Never look down on anybody, unless you're helping them up.
pipedreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:20   #88
Shinesintx
Senior Member
 
Shinesintx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: North of Dallas
Posts: 1,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by faceplant View Post
She was 87 years old. 87! There are no good outcomes for people that age that go into cardiac arrest. It is time to go. Her daughter was ok with it and you should be also.
My grandfather recently died at 89. He was ready to go and said as much. Based on what I saw and heard when people are ready to go, it's best to let them go. IMO, keeping them around when they wanna go is selfish.
__________________
:P
Shinesintx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:33   #89
norton
Senior Member
 
norton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Land of Lincoln, the growing years
Posts: 6,607
First issue is-the lady was apparently not paying for assisted living. She was paying for independent living, which is not the same thing. With my mom the difference was about $1000 per month.
My Mom paid for her own assisted living apartment. she was not a free loader letting the govt foot the bill.
Her nurses were very good to her, and worked very hard. They had a thankless job dealing with the elderly who often have dementia, can't control their bodily functions and generally have a crappy quality of life. The elderly can also be mean and very cantankerous. Especially males.
Second, I spent several years as an EMT. I did a number of resuscitations myself, and for the most part I was not doing the patients any favors. Most did not survive, and those that did had either severe life long issues or eventually died anyway. We are after all talking about an 87 year old woman. Lets say she survived after not getting oxygen to her brain for who knows how many minutes. Who is going to pay for her enormous medical expenses when she survives but is brain damaged or impaired?
I'm sure there are ambulance chasing attorneys foaming at the mouth after reading about this case. If you think medical care sucks, thank them. They are the problem.
__________________
Tinker to Evers to Chance.
norton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:49   #90
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicOni View Post
How is it different than a hospital calling 911 because something happenned in their parking lot? It's a 'liability' issue.
There is a difference between calling 911 for help ("help" meaning you are taking action and need assistance), and calling 911 as a passerby. As trained professionals, hospital staff have a duty to act. As do staff at a care facility.

The ER at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle occasionally calls 911 for assistance with an ET tube - because Seattle Fire Paramedics are arguably the most experienced people in the world at dropping a tube in an airway. But ER staff are working the Pt. when they call.

If I have a medical emergency in a hospital parking lot, I believe I can reasonably expect to get care from hospital staff... and I bet I could find a lawyer who would agree.

If I am in uniform at Starbucks before reporting to work, and someone goes into cardiac arrest, I have a duty to act. The public expects it based on who I am, and I will not let them down, but I will call 911 for help.

Even stupid and incompetent people deserve assistance when they need it - old people deserve assistance. It is not my place to "play God" and deliver judgement based on age. Humans have lived past 100 years. If someone "crumps" in my presence, in the absence of a POLST that says otherwise, I will help. As a professional who is trained in solving problems of all sorts, I have a moral obligation to act at all times. I open doors for old folks, I have put out MV fires with snow off duty, and I have done CPR off duty in civilian clothes.

The caregivers in Bakersfield fell short of what is expected... regardless of whether or not they get sued... they did not represent the profession.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:29   #91
devildog2067
Senior Member
 
devildog2067's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Near Chicago, IL
Posts: 15,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by slathrum View Post
Gallium, I sincerely hope you are a better physician than a debater
He never said or implied that he is a physician.
devildog2067 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:32   #92
devildog2067
Senior Member
 
devildog2067's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Near Chicago, IL
Posts: 15,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Money is more important than life in America!
Do you work for free?

If you don't, why should medical professionals?
devildog2067 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:48   #93
faceplant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
Seattle's save rates are well known in the EMS world. Their witnessed VF save rates typically hover at 45% - as measured using the Utstein protocol, which only includes those who leave the hospital without brain damage.

A quick Google search of "Seattle cardiac arrest save rates" will confirm that. Dr Mickey Eisenberg, Dr Michael Copass, and Dr Leonard Cobb, would be good search names, to find out about the program behind the numbers.

Glad I could help!
That is the save rate for a particular type of cardiac arrest. Your overall rate is around 16%. Still very good. Do you have the stats for people in this age group?
faceplant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:55   #94
TX OMFS
Right wing nut
 
TX OMFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBT
Was the available ER staff on duty trained to evaluate and move a person with possible spinal injuries and head injuries?

It's so easy to say they should have just run out and scraped him up and taken him inside, but he could have gone from a broken back to complete quadriplegia in a heartbeat if moved improperly.
I've never heard of an ER that didn't have staff that knew how to stabilize the head and log roll. It's not rocket surgery.
__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.
TX OMFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:01   #95
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by norton View Post
First issue is-the lady was apparently not paying for assisted living. She was paying for independent living, which is not the same thing.
This was also my impression as well from reading the article. I inferred that the deceased was a resident of Location A, but was either at Location B's dining facility (or a shared facility) or contact was made by a nurse from Facility B.


Quote:
Originally Posted by norton View Post
...Second, I spent several years as an EMT. I did a number of resuscitations myself, and for the most part I was not doing the patients any favors. Most did not survive, and those that did had either severe life long issues or eventually died anyway. We are after all talking about an 87 year old woman. Lets say she survived after not getting oxygen to her brain for who knows how many minutes. Who is going to pay for her enormous medical expenses when she survives but is brain damaged or impaired?
I'm sure there are ambulance chasing attorneys foaming at the mouth after reading about this case. If you think medical care sucks, thank them. They are the problem.
Almost exactly what I have said, in more eloquent form.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:16   #96
faceplant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post

The ER at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle occasionally calls 911 for assistance with an ET tube - because Seattle Fire Paramedics are arguably the most experienced people in the world at dropping a tube in an airway. But ER staff are working the Pt. when they call.
.
So your telling us the areas only Level I trauma center has to call the fire dept for ET tube help.?
faceplant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:20   #97
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
There is a difference between calling 911 for help ("help" meaning you are taking action and need assistance), and calling 911 as a passerby. As trained professionals, hospital staff have a duty to act. As do staff at a care facility.
And you know that the law is not identical in every state.
The case I referenced earlier - same state (CA), where 1st responders stood by for an hour and watched a man drown in less than 3ft of water, because policy stated they could not assist, due to not recertifying, and not having the specific gear required for that type of rescue. Eventually a nurse passing by simply walked out there, grabbed the dude and started running CPR on him (IIRC)
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011...cy-forbids-it/


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
The ER at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle occasionally calls 911 for assistance with an ET tube - because Seattle Fire Paramedics are arguably the most experienced people in the world at dropping a tube in an airway. But ER staff are working the Pt. when they call.
This is a poor long term plan. It is mind boggling that a Level 1 trauma center with 1200 physicians on roster is calling outside of the facility to 911 to get a paramedic to do a trache tube. I am not casting doubt on your story. From a emergency management perspective it would be far more cost effective and risk averse in the long run to have those skills sets sharpened for in house personnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
If I have a medical emergency in a hospital parking lot, I believe I can reasonably expect to get care from hospital staff... and I bet I could find a lawyer who would agree.
Listen, we can find attorneys to do virtually anything. It is one of the distinct reasons why health care is so hamstrung as it is. It depends on your state laws and hospital policy. The fellow that was in the water up near San Fran, or his family could have also "reasonably expected" some sort of rescue to be effected. That case underscores that your expectations and reality may not always dovetail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
If I am in uniform at Starbucks before reporting to work, and someone goes into cardiac arrest, I have a duty to act. The public expects it based on who I am, and I will not let them down, but I will call 911 for help.
Again, you can only speak for your locality/state. This is not the "law" or policy everywhere in the USA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
  • Even stupid and incompetent people deserve assistance when they need it - old people deserve assistance.
  • It is not my place to "play God" and deliver judgement based on age. Humans have lived past 100 years.
  • If someone "crumps" in my presence, in the absence of a POLST that says otherwise, I will help. As a professional who is trained in solving problems of all sorts, I have a moral obligation to act at all times. I open doors for old folks, I have put out MV fires with snow off duty, and I have done CPR off duty in civilian clothes.
  • The caregivers in Bakersfield fell short of what is expected... regardless of whether or not they get sued... they did not represent the profession.

These observations are real, and as I have mentioned before, I am curious as to what will be the outcome of the investigation, and what charges, sanctions and penalties will be levied.

On the part that I have highlighted, on playing God...my sister was on (mostly artificial) life support for approximately 36 days. She was incapable of breathing on her own, was comatose, was mostly unresponsive to external stimuli, had pneumonia, fluids accumulating in her lungs (she went in with severely diminished respiratory capacity, one lung was compromised, the other was affected), her systems were shutting down...she started accumulating fluids in the wrong places....I pulled the plug at the onset of necrosis, but not after a fairly bitter struggle with family members AND HER CHURCH, who were adamant and insistent that taking her off life support was contravening God's will. They started almost round the clock vigils by her hospital room, making our lives more stressful than it was or needed to be.

Sometimes we play God when we intervene. It is a very delicate balance knowing where to tread. I have already stated my positions on what I would, and would not do.


- G
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:48   #98
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium The Okie Corral
but statistically improbable, and very unlikely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Halojumper View Post
Aren't those the same thing?

Not really.

One deals with absolute math. The other can be anything, contingent on time, date, location, science. tech, laws weather/etc.

It is statistically improbable for either of us to live to 130, but it is not unlikely that humans born in the next century will.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:49   #99
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,255


Quote:
Originally Posted by sputnik767 View Post
This was my first question, and is what I suspect is going on. That article was very one-sided. I would bet that the patient was DNR/DNI, which is why the staff did not intervene. Let's not rush to vilify the facility without this very important piece of information being known.
The article explicitly states that the patient did NOT have a DNR in place, so unless you are operating under the assumption that the article is lying, the statement above is a non-starter.

Going off of the article and 911 call transcript the central facts present here are:

1) The patient went into what appeared to be cardiac arrest.

2) A group of nurses on duty in the area called 911, but then refused to do what the 911 operator asked, which was to start CPR until the ambulance could arrive. They kept this refusal up for 7 minutes while the 911 operator begged them to do something, at one point even going so far as to respond "yes" when asked directly by the 911 operator if their intention was to simply watch the lady die and do nothing to intervene.

3) The patient in question did not have a DNR in place.
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by tsmo1066; 03-03-2013 at 13:50..
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:49   #100
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


edit to add: someone very shortly will jump on my explanation above. Later tonight or in the morning I will clean it up/edit/expound.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:18.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 713
177 Members
536 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42