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Old 03-05-2013, 16:05   #226
tsmo1066
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Originally Posted by PicardMD View Post
I don't think anyone will argue the morality of the situation. However, we live in a legal world.

Something that haven't been brought up -

CPR, like it or not, is a medical procedure. In a medical facility, it requires a physician's order. This is usually done by a "standing order" in the facility by the medical director.

Healthcare workers employed by a medical facility - such as a nursing home like this one, cannot perform medical procedures without a physicians order.
You may want to look that one up. There is no legal restriction banning a medical professional from initiating CPR at the direction of a 911 Emergency operator or responder. In an emergency situation, a doctor's order is not required to start CPR and no legal restriction exists against a medical professional or other doing so.

A company may have a private, purely internal policy against such, but there is not any form of legal restriction.

In any even, it is irrelevant to the situation. Not only did the Glenwood employee refuse to administer CPR, she also refused the 911 Operator's repeated requests for her to hand the phone over to someone else or ask anyone around her (even a bystander or gardener outside!) if they would be willing to intervene.

Heck, the lady even stated flat-out that her intention was to watch the victim die when the 911 Operator challenged her about her refusal to act!
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Last edited by tsmo1066; 03-05-2013 at 16:06..
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Old 03-05-2013, 16:20   #227
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Sounds about right. 80+ female patient, likely with osteo. Chest compression could easily have resulted in broken/fractured ribs. Not a good outcome. Check it out, but this policy is common in nursing homes / assisted living facilities.
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Old 03-05-2013, 16:30   #228
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
You may want to look that one up. There is no legal restriction banning a medical professional from initiating CPR at the direction of a 911 Emergency operator or responder. In an emergency situation, a doctor's order is not required to start CPR and no legal restriction exists against a medical professional or other doing so.
When I say legal, I didn't mean just the narrow definition of criminal violation and going to jail.

It also includes: Getting fired, being administratively investigated by the licensing board, getting sued civilly for violating policy... etc.

I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the world we live in.
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Old 03-05-2013, 16:38   #229
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There is a Good Samaritan law in my state that gives me a "duty to assist". It also provides citizens general immunity from prosecution.

604A.01 GOOD SAMARITAN LAW.

Subdivision 1.Duty to assist.

A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person.
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Old 03-05-2013, 16:52   #230
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There is a Good Samaritan law in my state that gives me a "duty to assist". It also provides citizens general immunity from prosecution.

604A.01 GOOD SAMARITAN LAW.

Subdivision 1.Duty to assist.

A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think Good Sam's law would apply here.

There is a contractual agreement between the lady and the independent living facility operator to render aid in the form of "calling 911 and remain with her until 911 arrives." So the facility technically has a "duty to act" in the form of calling 911 and staying with her until 911 arrives. The facility techinically satisfied the contractual agreement.

And by having a contractual agreement and "duty to act," I don't think the facility or it's employees enjoy Good Sam protection in civil liabilities.
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Old 03-05-2013, 21:32   #231
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Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
There is a Good Samaritan law in my state that gives me a "duty to assist". It also provides citizens general immunity from prosecution.
My state has a good samaritan law that grants immunity from prosecution, but does not (as far as I know) make any legal requirement to do so. However, the law only protects you if you stay within the limits of your training. For example, if I am trained in CPR and do an emergency amputation with my Spyderco I am probably in violation and in trouble.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:21   #232
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"For example, if I am trained in CPR"

I had CPR training when I was a Boy Scout in '61 or '62. Does that count?
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Old 03-06-2013, 19:04   #233
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According to the last sentence in the article, the lady's daughter is totally OK with it.

"We also spoke to Bayless' daughter. She said she is a nurse and she remains satisfied with the care her mother received at Glenwood Gardens."

WTF?!
Sometimes dying is a better option than living. Did the dead woman give her daughter medical power of attorney and tell her (the daughter) what she wanted done?
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Old 03-06-2013, 20:03   #234
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"For example, if I am trained in CPR"

I had CPR training when I was a Boy Scout in '61 or '62. Does that count?
I think it does. Unless they taught you to goose the patient ( former chief told me about that. I never bothered to look it up, feel free.) you know to compress the chest.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:50   #235
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Alrighty then, I have real medical training.

I just saw a headline on CNN - the police have stated that no charges will be filed because no laws were broken.
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Old 03-07-2013, 14:23   #236
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OK, I have to add my comment. I have been a firefighter/Paramedic for 20 years. Even though it sounds inhumane, this scenario is played out everyday. Most people that are in an assisted care home are at the end of they're lives or have serious medical conditions and often do not want any intervention when these things happen. There are many levels of care people want or don't want. It sounds like the reason 911 was called is that the woman was initially having some type of difficulty breathing. When she apparently went into cardiac arrest the patient did not want CPR done on her and that was the wish that was granted!
We stop CPR all the time even after meds and shocks are delivered. Most people do NOT survive cardiac arrest! The survival rate someone that old is close to zero. Please do NOT bash the medical people if you do NOT know how it works. No offense, but this type of thinking is like the anti gun people that want to get rid of all guns instead of putting the blame on the person that commits the crime.
This is just another incident where the media did not have all the facts and tried to make a good story for their own benefit. We all know how that works regarding guns and silly gun laws. Its the same thing!

Last edited by candyman196; 03-07-2013 at 17:31..
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:11   #237
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The facts are that less then 10% of people given cpr will live and thats best case senerio. It was also policy that they do not render CPR due to past lawsuits so you can thank those which sued people to blame. Just like the police, they do not have any legal obligation to help you or save you!
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:23   #238
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The facts are that less then 10% of people given cpr will live and thats best case senerio. It was also policy that they do not render CPR due to past lawsuits so you can thank those which sued people to blame. Just like the police, they do not have any legal obligation to help you or save you!
Well I have to say that the survival rate where I work is the best in the world! Last year we had a survival rate of 53%.
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Old 03-08-2013, 14:38   #239
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Well I have to say that the survival rate where I work is the best in the world! Last year we had a survival rate of 53%.
More than half of the codes you ran walked out of the hospital?
I find this very hard to believe. Very hard indeed.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:13   #240
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Not trying to get your approval just stating the facts! Yes 53% of our codes walked out neourologically in tact. We are obviously very proud of these numbers.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:21   #241
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This is a better perspective:

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/...r_physici.html
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:23   #242
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Not trying to get your approval just stating the facts! Yes 53% of our codes walked out neourologically in tact. We are obviously very proud of these numbers.
No they didn't. Maybe 53% of a certain population of cardiac arrests did (witnessed VT/VT, bystander CPR, etc) and that would be astronomically high.
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Old 03-08-2013, 18:13   #243
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No they didn't. Maybe 53% of a certain population of cardiac arrests did (witnessed VT/VT, bystander CPR, etc) and that would be astronomically high.
Another uninformed person that has no clue, but knows it all! I refuse to argue with such people here! My numbers are correct and I'm done with it.
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Old 03-08-2013, 20:22   #244
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Another uninformed person that has no clue, but knows it all! I refuse to argue with such people here! My numbers are correct and I'm done with it.
Uninformed? What if told you I happen to be a residency trained, board certified Emergency Physician, subspecialized EMS physician, medical director for a very large EMS system, medical director for the biggest EMS training program in the state, Nationally Registered Paramedic and EMS researcher with numerous publications and textbook authorships?

I guess I must be uninformed...
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Old 03-08-2013, 20:45   #245
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Another uninformed person that has no clue, but knows it all! I refuse to argue with such people here! My numbers are correct and I'm done with it.
We are uninformed because you have provided no evidence to substantiate what you have said.
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Old 03-08-2013, 20:58   #246
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Not trying to get your approval just stating the facts! Yes 53% of our codes walked out neourologically in tact. We are obviously very proud of these numbers.
If your talking Seattle you need to do some reading. 53% of witnessed Vfib arrests were saves. The actual survival rates for all cardiac arrests is around 16%. Now tell me what the rates are for someone in this age group. Your considered the best in the country. If your somewhere else put up the info.

Here is my info source
http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.co...t/art2834.html

4 posts to argue incorrect info.

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Old 03-08-2013, 21:08   #247
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If your talking Seattle you need to do some reading. 53% of witnessed Vfib arrests were saves. The actual survival rates for all cardiac arrests is around 16%. Now tell me what the rates are for someone in this age group. Your considered the best in the country. If your somewhere else put up the info.

Here is my info source
http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.co...t/art2834.html

4 posts to argue incorrect info.
No I'm not in Seattle and they are not the best.
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Old 03-08-2013, 21:38   #248
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No I'm not in Seattle and they are not the best.
Well do tell. Links would be nice.
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:24   #249
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More than half of the codes you ran walked out of the hospital?
I find this very hard to believe. Very hard indeed.

I agree, that is very very hard to believe. Where do you work cuz what ever their protocol is, it should be shared with the world cuz its out of this world good! I mean it has gotta be ground breaking stuff in the medical feild if more then half of them were actually discharged.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:29   #250
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Uninformed? What if told you I happen to be a residency trained, board certified Emergency Physician, subspecialized EMS physician, medical director for a very large EMS system, medical director for the biggest EMS training program in the state, Nationally Registered Paramedic and EMS researcher with numerous publications and textbook authorships?

I guess I must be uninformed...
If you're serious, then this is epic ownage... lol
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