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Old 03-01-2013, 11:42   #101
AK_Stick
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Acceptable answer.

The caveat that I would say is sometimes you don't have the luxury of time to have something "clarified" if it is illegal.

But will you agree that illegal and immoral are not the same? Would you also agree that legal and moral are not the same?


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Absolutely, there are legal things that I find morally reprehensible.

If I can't get clarification, then I'll go off my moral compass. Even if I'm wrong about the legality, I will not feel bad about sticking to my beliefs.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:43   #102
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
However, you and October rust evidently are not required any to post....

As yes, resorting to name calling because your logic parallels that of the pack mentality.

Keep going, you're making a very compelling argument for all the rest who are reading on here.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:45   #103
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
How is it any different than refusing an order to round up and detain groups of citizens in FEMA camps?

How is it any different than refusing to go door to door and search inside every home with drug dogs?

How is it any different than refusing to execute citizens on the spot for not complying with new XYZ law?

There has to be a line in the sand somewhere, right?

Last edited by Fear Night; 03-01-2013 at 11:58..
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:45   #104
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Do people make a bad call on ocassion? Yep. (Katrina, etc)

Will subordinate leaders think about the ramifications of their pending actions given the hindsight Katrina provides and likely not follow through? Likely.

Will a major shift in US Gov't policy be throroughly vetted by multiple layers of leadership and legal teams, Yep.

Will 2A be eliminated? Not likely

Will local police enforce Federal laws? Unlikely, not withing current authority


Fantasy kicking in the door thread. Turns into us vs. them bs.

Currently the SCOUTUS has affirmed the right.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:46   #105
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we tried and hung German soldiers that were "just following orders.
Very good point made here!
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:54   #106
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As yes, resorting to name calling because your logic parallels that of the pack mentality.

Keep going, you're making a very compelling argument for all the rest who are reading on here.
I'm not calling anyone dumb.

Trying to draw a parallel between saying a public servant publicly saying he refuses to do his sworn duty should be fired. And that Nazis executing Jews were. "Just following orders " and is somehow justified, is stupid.


As I said, I applaud their willingness to stand up and put thier convictions before their paycheck.

But a public servant who's job is to enforce the law, should (and will) be released when they refuse to do their sworn duty, and especially when they're dumb enough to tell the world I refuse to uphold the law. How a cop feels about a law has no bearing upon it actually being the law.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:54   #107
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I'm surprised how many, specifically guys who like to champion the constitution. Continually fail to understand that how they feel about a law has no bearing upon it being constitutional.


I think any gun control is wrong, but that doesn't immediately make any gun control unconstitutional.
I understand where you are coming from. A police officer cannot declare something unconstitutional; the SCOTUS has to do that.

However, while we are waiting for the SCOTUS to affirm a new law, should all law enforcement execute it blindly? Even orders to illegally search/detain/execute citizens? Why not allow the officers to refuse to enforce the law until AFTER the SCOTUS affirms it?

Last edited by Fear Night; 03-01-2013 at 11:58..
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:57   #108
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However, you and October rust evidently are not required any to post....
. . . . . . uh,
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:59   #109
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How is it any different than refusing an order to illegally detain groups of citizens in FEMA camps?

How is it any different than refusing to execute citizens on the spot for not complying with new XYZ law?

There has to be a line in the sand somewhere, right?

Well to start with, an AWB is constitutional?
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:00   #110
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Well to start with, an AWB is constitutional?
Shall not be infringed is pretty clear to me.

This must be the line in the sand, too bad the NFA wasn't.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:01   #111
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I'm not calling anyone dumb.

Trying to draw a parallel between saying a public servant publicly saying he refuses to do his sworn duty should be fired. And that Nazis executing Jews were. "Just following orders " and is somehow justified, is stupid.


As I said, I applaud their willingness to stand up and put thier convictions before their paycheck.

But a public servant who's job is to enforce the law, should (and will) be released when they refuse to do their sworn duty, and especially when they're dumb enough to tell the world I refuse to uphold the law. How a cop feels about a law has no bearing upon it actually being the law.
You aren't taking discretion into account.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:02   #112
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Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
I understand where you are coming from. A police officer cannot declare something unconstitutional; the SCOTUS has to do that.

However, while we are waiting for the SCOTUS to affirm a new law, should all law enforcement execute it blindly? Even orders to illegally search/detain/execute citizens? Why not allow the officers to refuse to enforce the law until AFTER the SCOTUS affirms it?
You obviously haven't read what I posted.

As I said, if that were the case, I would support them. But that's not what they're saying.

They are trying to draw a line in the sand and declare something unconstitutional, which is far beyond the power they have.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:03   #113
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Shall not be infringed is pretty clear to me.

This must be the line in the sand, too bad the NFA wasn't.
It's already been upheld that reasonable restrictions are completely constitutional.

You might not like it , but it is.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:10   #114
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I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.

My oath said I would follow the constitution first, then the laws and lawful orders. We had a whole class in academy that dealt with how to deal with unlawful orders, basically don't follow them or you'll burn. The idea that laws be blindly followed is wrong and it results in stories like Nazi Germany.




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Old 03-01-2013, 12:12   #115
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But an AWB, is not an illegal/unlawful/unconstitutional order.

What's the penalty for willful dereliction of duty?
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:23   #116
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I don't see any ability to construe reasonable restriction to all out confiscation.

If I were ordered to do something to do something i thought illegal I would refuse until I could get clarification. If it were determined legal but something I found immoral, I would refuse, and initiate my chapter.
"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" ~ Pretty clear right there...
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:28   #117
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"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" ~ Pretty clear right there...

Ah yes, but what the founding fathers really meant was



Shall not be unless it's a scary evil assault rifle infringed.


See? You must have got the wrong copy of the constitution. Not the copy that the founding fathers really wrote.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:51   #118
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"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" ~ Pretty clear right there...
SC trumps your opinion.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:54   #119
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Good for the LEO that are standing up for the citizens they serve and the 2A. I'll continue to vote for my local sheriff and support him and his pro 2A views. Shall not be infringed is pretty clear. I would like to petition the NRA to initiate proceedings to repeal the NFA.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:58   #120
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In the end, when it comes down to the Government moving the line making law abiding citizens into criminals because the citizens support the 2nd amendment, your either going to be a Patriot, or a Collaborator.


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Old 03-01-2013, 13:01   #121
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I have had this discussion with many I work with. I would not enforce that law nor would the large majority of my co-workers. Period.
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:01   #122
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In the end, when it comes down to the Government moving the line making law abiding citizens into criminals because the citizens support the 2nd amendment, your either going to be a Patriot, or a Collaborator.


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Very good posting
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:04   #123
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Well to start with, an AWB is constitutional?
How can a made up term by freedom hating leftists be constitutional?
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:10   #124
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SC trumps your opinion.

Supreme Court is not the final authority in this country and was never intended to be.

"We the People..." mean anything to you?



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Old 03-01-2013, 13:15   #125
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But an AWB, is not an illegal/unlawful/unconstitutional order.

What's the penalty for willful dereliction of duty?


It at the very least is unconstitutional.

Also you will find that there is no dereliction of duty for LEO. Remember all the "Police don't have a duty to protect you" threads?

The closest that you can find to a legal duty is child welfare laws, and many of those are so poorly set up that they don't pass muster with the constitution either, but because it's for the children they are ok to many, even though they have been struck down in court time and again.



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