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Old 03-01-2013, 09:06   #76
MotoGlock
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Originally Posted by Plasticman84 View Post
I disagree with your view, but I do understand where you are coming from. If I'm to be fired for not enforcing a law that goes against my morals and ethics, so be it. It seems people are quick to jump on law enforcement as the bad guys while they totally ignore the fact that the politicians are the ones that make the laws they disagree with. Most to mes, the very politicians that they vote for. Where we differ is the fact that I don't think we should blindly enforce laws. I'm a citizen first, cop second.

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You sir , rock!

And I do put the blame on the idiot politicians and worst the idiots that vote for these scum.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:11   #77
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An illegal law is no law at all... so why follow it? You happy being a drone?
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:16   #78
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This. It's like a doctor renouncing the hippocratic oath. If they want to become a civilian because of their sentiments, fine, but it's not appropriate for a sworn office.
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I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:43   #79
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The fallacious concept that we have 3 coequal branches of government will eventually ruin this nation. The idea that 9 boneheaded lawyers who hold appointed positions for life can make the final decision about what our laws are or are not is tyrannical. It was not the intention of the majority of the nation's founders.

The congress created the SCOTUS, funds the SCOTUS and can overrule or limit the jurisdiction of the SCOTUS. There is a reason we call their rulings "opinions". The congress is most closely elected by the people and is the supreme ruling body of our land, next is the president or chief executive and finally the SCOTUS.

Are our contemporary legislatures and presidents too weak or ignorant to govern properly? Yes, but that doesn't change the system as designed. The concept of the "coequal judicial branch" and the supremacy of previous case law came out of Harvard Law School and the warped brain of Christopher Colombus Langdell in the late 1800s. The degradation of the nation by lawyers has continued ever since.

Just my opinion.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:11   #80
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Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
So, if you were told by your commander to strafe known civilian noncombatants from your helicopter, you would do it? You wouldn't refuse? Nice.
There is a very large difference between enforcing a legal AWB, that you may not like, or agree with, and killing civilians.

Yet the fact that so very many of you can't actually combat what I've said without striving to make such a silly comparison highlights it perfectly.


Your feelings, do not have any bearing upon something being unconstitutional. I can claim all day long that the GCA of 68' and 86' are unconstitutional. But I still have to abide them.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:15   #81
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
An officer should be fired if he stands up and tells the world, I'll never right a traffic ticket, and his job is as a traffic cop.
That's a pretty specific job title. An ATF agent saying he won't enforce the new gun laws would be bad for his job security. Not so much for an everyday police officer, who has much more going on that just enforcing gun laws.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:17   #82
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
Fulfilling an oath does not mean blind obedience. Sorry but a line must be drawn somewhere and those that have stepped up and said they will not enforce confiscation orders have drawn the line. They understand that the Constitution outweighs any laws that VIOLATE IT. They understand their oath much better than those that won't disobey.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:19   #83
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
So if you walked up to your boss and said, I object to doing what you pay me to do, what exactly do you think would be his recourse?


Thats exactly what those cops are saying. We're not going to do our jobs, and you can't make us do it.

Complete and utter horse crap.
Two completely different scenarios that do not line up. If you have a moral objection to the work you are doing then you walk. But if you have taken an oath to uphold not only the law but to support and defend the Constitution then you should understand that the supreme law IS the Constitution and it comes first and that ANY law that violates the Constitution is NULL AND VOID and can be rendered so by honorable men and women stepping up and NOT carrying out unlawful orders.

I am surprised at how many Americans don't know this or realize it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:28   #84
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I'm surprised how many, specifically guys who like to champion the constitution. Continually fail to understand that how they feel about a law has no bearing upon it being constitutional.


I think any gun control is wrong, but that doesn't immediately make any gun control unconstitutional.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:34   #85
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post

I think any gun control is wrong, but that doesn't immediately make any gun control unconstitutional.
Do you believe any gun control is unethical or morally wrong?


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Old 03-01-2013, 10:42   #86
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I believe it is unethical as the basis for restriction isn't based upon safety or any other realistic goal, but because they are "scary" and were ill thought out back door attempts to curb crime.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:52   #87
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So now that we have established that you believe it is unethical, if you were given the order to be part of a military unit involved in confiscation would you do it?

I guess the question do you stand by your ethics or do you not have true ethics, only ethics when it is convenient?


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Old 03-01-2013, 10:57   #88
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I'm surprised how many, specifically guys who like to champion the constitution. Continually fail to understand that how they feel about a law has no bearing upon it being constitutional.


I think any gun control is wrong, but that doesn't immediately make any gun control unconstitutional.
What if the current administration decided to abolish the 2nd Amendment and it passed but the people refused to obey such a act of tyranny . Would you as a soldier if ordered to go house to house and kill Americans to take their weapons follow that order?
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:58   #89
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I guess the question do you stand by your ethics or do you not have true ethics, only ethics when it is convenient?


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That is the real question for all LEO's. If/when the time comes are you willing to change your entire life to stand up for what you believe in? Some will but a lot won't. They will not want to change their comfy little lives or deprive their families of the things they have become accustomed too. Because their lives will change. Good jobs won't be that easy to come by. There will be others just like them competing for the same jobs, with the same skill sets.

This is worst case scenario but very plausible.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:02   #90
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.

So by your standards then, a lot of Hitler's men did a great job, and their secured jobs at auschwitz were justified, because they followed orders and enforced rule of law?

Interesting logic.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:02   #91
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Sometimes changes in employment situations are better for people.

When I refused something unethical I had to go home and tell my wife why we would be eating my ethics for dinner. That was, especially for my age, a very high paying job that i now longer had. In the end, it turned out much better.


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Old 03-01-2013, 11:04   #92
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So by your standards then, a lot of Hitler's men did a great job, and their secured jobs at auschwitz were justified, because they followed orders and enforced rule of law?

Interesting logic.
I know he doesn't mean it like that, but this is exactly what I kept imagining.

Good post.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:12   #93
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
A lot are Sheriffs and they are elected. The courts have upheld that the police have discretion. They do not have to enforce every law all the time, as they have limited resources. Prosecutors do as well.

The president has publicly stated they will not enforce certain immigration laws in certain cases. Has he been fired? Has he been impeached? Has the head of the immigration department been fired for following that order?

They are following the path of the President of the United States. If they are wrong, then he is wrong. Remove them all. Or deal with it. A law does not have to ruled unconstitutional to be BE unconstitutional. This is evidenced by the fact that once it is ruled unconstitutional it is null and void from the date of passage, not from the date of ruling. This topic was discussed by our founding fathers.

Really all the Sheriff can do is not arrest or not report people for those actions. The DA decides who gets prosecuted. So you could go file a complaint when someone breaks those laws the Sheriff refuses to act on and see if the DA will prosecute based on the evidence you bring. Good Luck with that, it might make you very unpopular in some circles.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:14   #94
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
So now that we have established that you believe it is unethical, if you were given the order to be part of a military unit involved in confiscation would you do it?

I guess the question do you stand by your ethics or do you not have true ethics, only ethics when it is convenient?


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I don't see any ability to construe reasonable restriction to all out confiscation.

If I were ordered to do something to do something i thought illegal I would refuse until I could get clarification. If it were determined legal but something I found immoral, I would refuse, and initiate my chapter.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:15   #95
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I'm not reading thru 100 replies, but we tried and hung German soldiers that were "just following orders." You ARE required to have SOME brains.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:18   #96
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Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
So by your standards then, a lot of Hitler's men did a great job, and their secured jobs at auschwitz were justified, because they followed orders and enforced rule of law?

Interesting logic.

Yes, exactly, they stood up and said "this is wrong, we don't believe in it "

Quit trying to grasp at straws. It won't work, and it's a terrible comparison.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:20   #97
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I'm not reading thru 100 replies, but we tried and hung German soldiers that were "just following orders." You ARE required to have SOME brains.
However, you and October rust evidently are not required any to post....
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:22   #98
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Is this the fantasy knee deep in brass thread? ATF kicking in doors thread? Can I come in?

This has nothing to do with guns, it has to do with Constitutional law, interpretations by the Supreme Court and enforcement. It could be any subject...abortion, voter rights, eminent domain...whatever.

When the ruling comes down, that's the "new" law of the land. Done.

Won't like it, but those are the cards we're dealt. Unless you plan on being the first to revolt, you'll deal with it like everyone else...wake up, pants on, go to work. Unless the day of revolt is here...and it's not here.

AK will make his choices when the time comes...or doesn't as is more likely.

We are indulging in fantasy due to total disgust with the politicians.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:24   #99
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I don't see any ability to construe reasonable restriction to all out confiscation.

If I were ordered to do something to do something i thought illegal I would refuse until I could get clarification. If it were determined legal but something I found immoral, I would refuse, and initiate my chapter.
Acceptable answer.

The caveat that I would say is sometimes you don't have the luxury of time to have something "clarified" if it is illegal.

But will you agree that illegal and immoral are not the same? Would you also agree that legal and moral are not the same?


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Old 03-01-2013, 11:28   #100
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Beatcop, read my post about shipping failing medical devices. It is not as much fantasy as you think.

Imagine, if someone that knew what was going on inside Enron would have stood up and said "this is wrong, I won't participate"

This is not about LEO. Not about 2A. This is about doing the right thing when it is much easier/lucrative to do the wrong thing.


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