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Old 02-27-2013, 14:22   #1
Zeebra724
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Possible scenario question?

If this has been answered in another post, please forgive me...but, since I frequently need to go in stores that have "no weapons allowed" stickers on the outside, I had to ask.
(I know I can still CCW in there if it's only just a sticker on the window with a circle and line across a gun--and I know that, if for some terrible lack of concealment on my part, they find out that I'm armed they can ask me to put my weapon back in my car.)

Ok, purely hypothetical, but...

1) Let's say I'm carrying inside such a store (i.e. BabysRUs, ToysRUs, IKEA, etc.)

2) BG enters the store firing and I feel the need to draw/use my weapon to protect my family, others, or myself.

3) BG is consequently arrested by police or BG threat removed. However, store management now knows that have a weapon on me.

4) What happens to me, even if I re-holster and conceal (and/or happen to be able to leave the scene with my family)? Am I at the "mercy" of the store owners or LE at that point?

Again, totally hypothetical...maybe there's no definitive answer either since it might depend on the context of the situation.
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:42   #2
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You know what! I would post that up in the self-defence section and see what Mr. Ayoob has to say on the subject. He will give you a good straight answer.
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:48   #3
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Originally Posted by viper144 View Post
You know what! I would post that up in the self-defence section and see what Mr. Ayoob has to say on the subject. He will give you a good straight answer.
Good idea...submitted the post in the GATE self defense section...thanks!
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:51   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
If this has been answered in another post, please forgive me...but, since I frequently need to go in stores that have "no weapons allowed" stickers on the outside, I had to ask.
(I know I can still CCW in there if it's only just a sticker on the window with a circle and line across a gun--and I know that, if for some terrible lack of concealment on my part, they find out that I'm armed they can ask me to put my weapon back in my car.)

Ok, purely hypothetical, but...

1) Let's say I'm carrying inside such a store (i.e. BabysRUs, ToysRUs, IKEA, etc.)

2) BG enters the store firing and I feel the need to draw/use my weapon to protect my family, others, or myself.

3) BG is consequently arrested by police or BG threat removed. However, store management now knows that have a weapon on me.

4) What happens to me, even if I re-holster and conceal (and/or happen to be able to leave the scene with my family)? Am I at the "mercy" of the store owners or LE at that point?

Again, totally hypothetical...maybe there's no definitive answer either since it might depend on the context of the situation.
I'd say that it depends on the law in your state. If the signs carry no weight of law, then I'd imagine consequences would be the same as if there were no sign posted. If the signs do carry the weight of law, then you'd be subject to whatever punishment was set forth in the statute.

The question is really would drawing your weapon in the situation amount to brandishing? I don't think there is a clear cut answer.

I'm sure Mr. Ayoob will have a better response.
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Old 02-27-2013, 16:01   #5
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PA the signage doesn't matter. Unless the law specifies a place you can't carry ex. a school, then your fine. The store could press charges stating your tresspassing, but that would be unlikely if you saved their ass.
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Old 02-27-2013, 16:17   #6
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i would still be alive.......after that nothing else matters much
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:10   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn57 View Post
I'd say that it depends on the law in your state. If the signs carry no weight of law, then I'd imagine consequences would be the same as if there were no sign posted. If the signs do carry the weight of law, then you'd be subject to whatever punishment was set forth in the statute.

The question is really would drawing your weapon in the situation amount to brandishing? I don't think there is a clear cut answer.

I'm sure Mr. Ayoob will have a better response.


Most states if you have reason to shoot, and you simply draw.. you're not going to get a brandishing charge. If anything, you can show you used considerable restraint by NOT shooting (again, we're assuming this would have been a justified shooting, and for some reason the idiot gave up before you had a chance to shoot)
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:12   #8
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Quote:
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PA the signage doesn't matter. Unless the law specifies a place you can't carry ex. a school, then your fine. The store could press charges stating your tresspassing, but that would be unlikely if you saved their ass.
Not to mention, most places, trespassing requires you be asked to leave, and refuse. Some states even require LEO's to give someone a trespass notice.... It's unlikely in his scenario, that trespassing would be even a remote issue.
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:42   #9
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If you have to shoot someone to save yourself or family, does the rest of the scenario matter?
From what you describe, you had better be a really good shot, because with all the bystanders around there could be plenty of casualties. And you better hope the bad guy doesn't take anyone out with him.
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:02   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
If this has been answered in another post, please forgive me...but, since I frequently need to go in stores that have "no weapons allowed" stickers on the outside, I had to ask.
(I know I can still CCW in there if it's only just a sticker on the window with a circle and line across a gun--and I know that, if for some terrible lack of concealment on my part, they find out that I'm armed they can ask me to put my weapon back in my car.)

Ok, purely hypothetical, but...

1) Let's say I'm carrying inside such a store (i.e. BabysRUs, ToysRUs, IKEA, etc.)

2) BG enters the store firing and I feel the need to draw/use my weapon to protect my family, others, or myself.

3) BG is consequently arrested by police or BG threat removed. However, store management now knows that have a weapon on me.

4) What happens to me, even if I re-holster and conceal (and/or happen to be able to leave the scene with my family)? Am I at the "mercy" of the store owners or LE at that point?

Again, totally hypothetical...maybe there's no definitive answer either since it might depend on the context of the situation.
To be honest, I'm having trouble finding your "trouble". You say that you know that stickers on the door carries no weight of law, and you are asking about only these places. So if the sign carries no weight of law, how exactly do you think you'll be at the mercy of the store? You certainly couldn't be at the mercy of the LE if the stickers carry no weight of law...

As I see it, about the worst that could happen would be the store management asks you to leave and never come back.

What exactly are you thinking could happen to you when the sign carries no weight of law???
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Old 02-28-2013, 14:16   #11
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Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
Good idea...submitted the post in the GATE self defense section...thanks!
I'll bet that Mas recommended that you look up the issue in the Carry Issues forum.
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Old 02-28-2013, 15:27   #12
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I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
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Old 02-28-2013, 16:58   #13
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I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
From WeightWatchers - "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 12."
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Old 02-28-2013, 17:34   #14
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This may depend upon the state in which you reside.... whether or not the sign carries the weight of law or not, or some other factors. I seem to recall reading at one time that in California, you are not within your legal rights to defend someone unknown to you (please correct me here if this is in error).

In my state, the greater immediacy of having to defend your life or that of someone else, trumps the possible chance of being charged with any "crime" lesser in nature, assuming you're open to such in the first place.

The issue sometimes comes up about innocent bystanders being hit in a firefight. If you are defending yourself and one or more of your shots hits an innocent person, you cannot be charged as long as your actions were excusable or justifiable. The BG is the one who will be charged. Doesn't mean you can't be sued, just that you cannot be held criminally liable if those conditions are met. And this is in my state.... I can't speak for other states.
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Old 02-28-2013, 18:44   #15
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Thanks guys...Mr. Ayoob mentioned that hypothetical isn't really worth worrying about but suggested not going to places or supporting shops that wouldn't want you carrying. I appreciate his time and your comments...by God's grace this situation will stay simply hypothetical.
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Old 02-28-2013, 19:16   #16
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This is a good question. Do not pull your gun to warn. Practice for effective drawing.
1) You have already drawn your gun but did not shoot. you should reholster your gun. Police entering the building will shoot anyone they see with a gun. Others may point to you as the problem. If an officer confronts you keep hands away. So at this point you are good to go. Know that the police will pull the camera vedio's from the store and other places in the area. They will also put the charge/check data from the store. They will likely contact you as they would need to rule you out as a partner in the crime. If that concerns you then contact the department later in the day. In some areas the sole event of exposing your gun can bring charges.
2) You pull your gun and shoot. Reholster your gun. The police will shoot anyone with a gun. Call 911. Call attorney. Call work to report you will not be in the next day.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:10   #17
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From WeightWatchers - "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 12."

No, I ment I'd rather be judged by a jury of 12 than carried by 6 Pall Bearers....
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:01   #18
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Carrying where posted or where it's otherwise made clear by property owner or proprietor that they don't wish their property to be utilized by armed permit holders, regardless, is a loser move. However, it is extremely popular these days for permitees to emulate those of the adolescent or criminal element. One only needs an excuse for ignoring property owner's wishes, or to assert that their own rights are the only ones that should be considered. So know that, if your goal is to do wrong and make an excuse if you're caught, you're not the only one choosing to play that game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
If this has been answered in another post, please forgive me...but, since I frequently need to go in stores that have "no weapons allowed" stickers on the outside, I had to ask.
(I know I can still CCW in there if it's only just a sticker on the window with a circle and line across a gun--and I know that, if for some terrible lack of concealment on my part, they find out that I'm armed they can ask me to put my weapon back in my car.)

Ok, purely hypothetical, but...

1) Let's say I'm carrying inside such a store (i.e. BabysRUs, ToysRUs, IKEA, etc.)

2) BG enters the store firing and I feel the need to draw/use my weapon to protect my family, others, or myself.

3) BG is consequently arrested by police or BG threat removed. However, store management now knows that have a weapon on me.

4) What happens to me, even if I re-holster and conceal (and/or happen to be able to leave the scene with my family)? Am I at the "mercy" of the store owners or LE at that point?

Again, totally hypothetical...maybe there's no definitive answer either since it might depend on the context of the situation.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:23   #19
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If I'm carrying a concealed weapon it's too much of a chore for me to disarm before I enter restricted premises. I also respect the right of those who prohibit CCW on their property even if I disagree with their views. There are enough big box stores that do respect the individual's Second Amendment rights for me to find just about anything I need to purchase.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:44   #20
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So know that, if your goal is to do wrong and make an excuse if you're caught, you're not the only one choosing to play that game.
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I also respect the right of those who prohibit CCW on their property even if I disagree with their views.
Thanks for your replies...may reconsider...just seem to be having flashbacks to Aurora, CO and other situations where people were killed without having a chance to possibly defend themselves--but they were being "obedient," so at the end of the day, having good character is what matters (even if you get killed), right? I can rest with that if only I was the one involved/killed...hard to swallow though for my wife and sons.

Yeah, the obvious conclusion is, "Don't shop at those places then!" But it's not always that easy...the key thing for me is to (1) Trust God and (2) Obey/Do the right thing for your family (which inevitably comes back to #1)...will probably leave my gun in the car from now on--don't want to be a hypocrite...
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