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Old 02-27-2013, 16:07   #41
samsgreen
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It took me 3 YEARS to decide what to EDC and I work in a large gun shop.

I decided on a Gen 3 32 in 357 even with access to Sig, HK, Springfield, S+W, Kimber, FNH etc... (I am an FNH nut btw)

I frickin LOVE this gun and caliber combo!
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Old 02-27-2013, 16:09   #42
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I want to get some of those Underwood 357 Sig loads for my P229 and P239.
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Old 02-27-2013, 16:44   #43
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I want to get some of those Underwood 357 Sig loads for my P229 and P239.
Excellent choice!
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:45   #44
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Everyone should be careful what they put in posts, they are discoverable at a trial. In a self defense shooting, your intent is to only stop the deadly threat to you or someone else. Once a deadly threat no longer exists, you must stop deadly force at that moment. You should not talk about how lethal your ammunition is, only how effective it may be at stopping an attack.

I think this is great advice! Period!
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Old 02-27-2013, 18:43   #45
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If you think that statement is dumb. You obviously have never read any of Maas Ayoob's writings. He is considered one of this nations greatest experts in this field. He will advise you to never say to a police officer or in a court of law that you intended to kill the perp. He advises you to say you did what was necessary to stop his attack. If there are witnesses and you continue to shoot him while he is down and no longer a threat and he dies as a result, you will be charged with murder in many places. Go to U.S.A. Carry Forum and you will hear many more dumb comments like this. Some of them written by prosecutors and some by lawyers
We seem to be getting a bit far afield from the OP's issue but anyway ...

I agree with your assessment of Mas Ayoob's unquestioned expertise. One of the things I have been wondering about the past several months is ammo selection, and what has caused me to wonder is Mas's caution about using reloads for self-defense.

If a prosecutor has an eye on future political office without regard for the fate of those he/she places in the dock what prevents him/her from charging a defender for using a boutique ammunition that exceeds the published SAAMI standards?

If lightening the pull of a trigger by 0.5 pounds can lead to negligent homicide or even murder charges couldn't the same charges be brought for successfully defending oneself with ammo that pushes the envelope in pressure? American Big Ammo companies' products might give the prosecutor pause, but what about the small boutique company's ammo that exceeds SAAMI specs? Is it possible that, say, a 124-grain 9mm JHP designed to fly 300 fps faster than what the local LEO 9mm issue ammo does an ambitious prosecutor (like one who believes every semi-automatic handgun is an "assault weapon") might find it expeditious to charge a defender in the furtherance of his/her political career?

Like I said, we're getting far afield, but since the issue of legal liability has come up and you're apparently a fan of certain boutique ammos it might bear fruit to consider CCW with a .357sig instead of 9mm if your preferred 9mm carry round needs to go beyond SAAMI specs.

Just a thought that came to me some months ago ...
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Old 02-27-2013, 19:20   #46
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I want to get some of those Underwood 357 Sig loads for my P229 and P239.

Even more impressive is Underwood's 9x25 loads - 125 grain at 1700 fps. Unfortunately these won't fit in your SIGs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 23:02   #47
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I question whether the .357 SIG is a prudent choice for EDC by a civilian. In fact the Law Enforcement Departments choosing this round seem to patrol mostly rural environments. This would probably be a bad choice in a metropolitan area.
IT depends on the bullet you choose. Bonded 357sig loads will indeed penetrate deeper than sim 9mm going slower. A bonded bullet just doesn't expand/fragment the way a cup/core does. So if you want maximum tissue damage & limited penetration, a 125gr cup/core JHP @ 1400fps+ will give you that in the 357sig. Yes you will get more flash & bang & a bit more recoil than 124gr 9mm+P+, but there are no free lunches. Really, personal choice. Good ammo, good shooter, any real advantage is going to be minimal, but sometimes minimal advantage is what wins the day.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:49   #48
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IT depends on the bullet you choose. Bonded 357sig loads will indeed penetrate deeper than sim 9mm going slower. A bonded bullet just doesn't expand/fragment the way a cup/core does. So if you want maximum tissue damage & limited penetration, a 125gr cup/core JHP @ 1400fps+ will give you that in the 357sig. Yes you will get more flash & bang & a bit more recoil than 124gr 9mm+P+, but there are no free lunches. Really, personal choice. Good ammo, good shooter, any real advantage is going to be minimal, but sometimes minimal advantage is what wins the day.
A very good analysis!
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:52   #49
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Another advantage of the 357 SIG is reliable feeding. When the round comes from the magazine, you have a 9MM bullet going into a 10 MM hole. It is like loading the cartridge using a funnel. This is probably another reason that a lot of the early self-loading pistols used bottle-necked cartridges (7.6225 Tokarev, 7.6325 Mauser and 7.6521 Luger). The bottle-necked cartridge also allows more powder capacity for caliber. Almost all rifle cartridges are bottle-necked except for larger calibers like 45-70, 458, 600 & 700 Nitro express. Increasing the diameter of the case increases capacity exponentially (Pi times the radius squared times case length available for powder charge) just as increasing velocity increases energy exponentially (velocity squared times bullet weight in grains divided by 450,400).
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:55   #50
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Everyone should be careful what they put in posts, they are discoverable at a trial. In a self defense shooting, your intent is to only stop the deadly threat to you or someone else. Once a deadly threat no longer exists, you must stop deadly force at that moment. You should not talk about how lethal your ammunition is, only how effective it may be at stopping an attack.
I sometimes forget this good warning.
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Old 02-28-2013, 22:12   #51
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The 357sig rd is much more popular now then it was 4 yrs ago when i purchased a G31. Back then the 45gap guys were predicting the death of the 357sig rd. Looks like almost the opposite happened.

Myself i'd rather have the flat shooting and barrier penetrating capabilites that this rd offers.
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Old 02-28-2013, 22:52   #52
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I really think it is not more popular for two reasons. First, most people do not even know it exists. I am always questioned at the range as to what I am shooting and I have not had a person yet that knew anything about the 357 sig when I showed them. When they first go to the gun store to buy a gun, the caliber is never brought up as an option. Second, things like this thread may turn off people who might have tried it because it is always wrongly criticized as being no better than a hot 9mm as Dave has tried to do here, or say something else equally wrong. Once you get out of Caliber Corner, I'll bet 40 - 70% of the people know nothing or very little about the round.
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Old 03-01-2013, 00:08   #53
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I really think it is not more popular for two reasons. First, most people do not even know it exists. I am always questioned at the range as to what I am shooting and I have not had a person yet that knew anything about the 357 sig when I showed them. When they first go to the gun store to buy a gun, the caliber is never brought up as an option. Second, things like this thread may turn off people who might have tried it because it is always wrongly criticized as being no better than a hot 9mm as Dave has tried to do here, or say something else equally wrong. Once you get out of Caliber Corner, I'll bet 40 - 70% of the people know nothing or very little about the round.
I hope Glock remembers to mail me a referral gratuity for having introduced a father/son to .357sig a couple of years ago at a remote state conservation shooting range.

They asked what I was shooting and I told them, then offered to let them shoot my G-32 which the son accepted. He could hit the target better than I could on his very first test and returned exclaiming, "Wow". The father said he'd seen a Glock .357sig at a local gun shop and was going to stop there the next day with his son to look at it again. I'm sure they were impressed with the power and accuracy of the G-32 and I know I was equally impressed with the first-time shooting ability of the son. His father had said his son was an excellent shot and that certainly proved true from my eyewitness observation.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:15   #54
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dbarn, I am in complete agreement with you. My research however leads me to believe that the 9mm Glock was designed to handle that type of pressure. Study the barrels and you will discover that the walls surrounding the chamber in a 9mm Glock are thicker than those for the .357 SIG. The external dimesions are the same but the .357 SIG is a necked down .40 S&W. This leads to thinner walls in the chamber area. The barrel area is identical. Same external dimension and same bore. Am I missing something here that logic doesn't reveal?
The important thing is to keep the propellant burning progressively. If its temperature gets to high it detonates. That is, rather than burning from the outer surface where burn is proportional to surface area (burning is not a correct term here because it does not need external oxygen) it burns through its particle or rod almost instantaneously. That produces a massive over pressure and the barrel bursts. This effect is a function of the volume of combustion. The smaller the volume the higher the pressure and the higher the temperature according to the gas laws.

Clearly this danger is greatest when the bullet is still close to the cartridge case as the volume is smallest then. By using a bigger volume cartridge case a bigger charge can be used and still stay within the pressure limit. But, by using the larger charge, the pressure when the bullet is further down the barrel is higher and so the bullet is pushed harder over the length of the barrel even though the initial pressure is the same. Hence the 357SIG and 9x23mm Winchester can go faster than the 9mm ever could. This is not a matter of the space for enough propellant but space for the initial combustion to be controlled with heavier charges.

The thinner walls of the chamber of the 357 SIG are not very important here because detonating combustion will still burst thicker walls.

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Old 03-01-2013, 09:05   #55
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Well

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The important thing is to keep the propellant burning progressively. If its temperature gets to high it detonates. That is, rather than burning from the outer surface where burn is proportional to surface area (burning is not a correct term here because it does not need external oxygen) it burns through its particle or rod almost instantaneously. That produces a massive over pressure and the barrel bursts. This effect is a function of the volume of combustion. The smaller the volume the higher the pressure and the higher the temperature according to the gas laws.

Clearly this danger is greatest when the bullet is still close to the cartridge case as the volume is smallest then. By using a bigger volume cartridge case a bigger charge can be used and still stay within the pressure limit. But, by using the larger charge, the pressure when the bullet is further down the barrel is higher and so the bullet is pushed harder over the length of the barrel even though the initial pressure is the same. Hence the 357SIG and 9x23mm Winchester can go faster than the 9mm ever could. This is not a matter of the space for enough propellant but space for the initial combustion to be controlled with heavier charges.

The thinner walls of the chamber of the 357 SIG are not very important here because detonating combustion will still burst thicker walls.

English
You seem to be an experienced reloader.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:32   #56
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You seem to e an experienced reloader.
I do reload but I would not call myself an experienced reloader. Compared to many on GT I am a novice. Th above was just basic principles of the way in which propellants burn. The hotter they get the faster they burn. The rest is just gas laws from basic physics. But thanks for the appreciation anyway!

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Old 03-01-2013, 11:51   #57
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I do reload but I would not call myself an experienced reloader. Compared to many on GT I am a novice. Th above was just basic principles of the way in which propellants burn. The hotter they get the faster they burn. The rest is just gas laws from basic physics. But thanks for the appreciation anyway!

English
I have been reloading since 1978!
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:59   #58
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The important thing is to keep the propellant burning progressively. If its temperature gets to high it detonates. That is, rather than burning from the outer surface where burn is proportional to surface area (burning is not a correct term here because it does not need external oxygen) it burns through its particle or rod almost instantaneously. That produces a massive over pressure and the barrel bursts. This effect is a function of the volume of combustion. The smaller the volume the higher the pressure and the higher the temperature according to the gas laws.

Clearly this danger is greatest when the bullet is still close to the cartridge case as the volume is smallest then. By using a bigger volume cartridge case a bigger charge can be used and still stay within the pressure limit. But, by using the larger charge, the pressure when the bullet is further down the barrel is higher and so the bullet is pushed harder over the length of the barrel even though the initial pressure is the same. Hence the 357SIG and 9x23mm Winchester can go faster than the 9mm ever could. This is not a matter of the space for enough propellant but space for the initial combustion to be controlled with heavier charges.

The thinner walls of the chamber of the 357 SIG are not very important here because detonating combustion will still burst thicker walls.

English
English, it is great to see you on the board again. I was out of commission for a few months due to a knee replacement. Thank you for the analysis above; I think you did a better job of explaining it than I did. I could have used you on another thread as I was being chased by a Dr. Roberts disciple.

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Old 03-01-2013, 13:35   #59
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Simply put, the .357 Sig is everything the 9mm wants to be when it grows up. Period.
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Old 03-01-2013, 18:30   #60
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Simply put, the .357 Sig is everything the 9mm wants to be when it grows up. Period.
So I have been carrying a juvenile caliber since 1989? My G17 has been ready and able.
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