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Old 02-27-2013, 07:13   #26
PghJim
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Originally Posted by Dave Nowlin View Post
If there is a true advantage to the .357 SIG then it would come from greater case capacity. If the proper powder was chosen to be optimized to the barrel length of the gun maybe there would be some small advantage. By optimized I mean the burn rate would be chosen to produce the the greatest amount of energy within the chosen barrel length without exceeding the pressure limit. This means that the ammunition companies would have to optimize their ammo to barrel length. Fat chance of that.
You need a better understanding of ballistics. The greater case capacity is what gives the 357 sig the 200fps velocity, and thereby energy, advantage. It allows the loader to load a greater amount of slower burning rate powder that allows for more velocity within the 40,000psi window. If the 40,000psi is reached right away the velocity will be less than a pressure curve that has the pressure hitting 40,000psi when the bullet is further down the barrel. Generally, a faster burning powder will reach maximum pressure faster than a slow burning powder. With the 9mm, even at +p+, there just is not the case capacity to give a pressure curve like the 357 sig, because you are forced to use a powder with a faster burn rate.

Do not get me wrong the 9mm in +p or +p+ is a great cartridge, but if you try to make it into a 357 sig you are flirting with danger.

Last edited by PghJim; 02-27-2013 at 07:16..
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:44   #27
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Now that that issue has been covered there is the issue of flatter shooting at long range. For those of us who are citizens and not LEOs, you'll have a hard time defending the concept that a long range shooting was self defense. A man much smarter than me once said, "a hand gun is to be used to get yourself to your long gun." A handgun is a short range self defense weapon at best. My AR would be a far better choice at distance. Why do you suppose so many departments are buying into the Patrol Rifle concept?
The 357 sig was initially developed for law enforcement, there is always a possibility that a patrolman may have to make a precision shot at over 40 yards. Look at the Noth Holywood shootout. All it would have taken would have been a couple of precision head shots at 50 yards. Now I am not LE and you are correct that my defensive shooting will not be that far, but there is no downside to the 357 sig. It is the most accurate service round at long distance and I have shot more than a few rodents at 50 yards +. It is an extra tool in your box. No downside and it is easier to carry than an AR.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:57   #28
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Actually I probably know far more about ballistics than you know. In my modified Ruger Super Blackhawk (by modified I mean equipped with Bisley hammer, trigger & gripframe) I shoot 325 grain LBT design bullets from a 5 inch barrel. The heavy for caliber bullet starts slower due to inertia and therefore exits the barrel slower (time frame) than a 240 grain bullet. It utilizes the powder charge more efficiently due to this longer dwell time. The .45 long colt can push this same weight LBT design bullet equally fast at lower pressures. This has been proven by John Linebaugh and others. However when comparing the 9mm vs .357 SIG we are talking about a bottleneck case and much shorter barrels. With the Ruger we are talking about 5 inches of barrel beyond the nose of the bullet. With a semiautomatic the barrel length includes the chamber. With the 26 & 33 the effective barrel length is indeed short. This makes powder burn rate even more critical as well as load selection tailored to barrel length. It doesn't matter how much more powder you burn after the bullet leaves the barrel.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:19   #29
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Actually I probably know far more about ballistics than you know. In my modified Ruger Super Blackhawk (by modified I mean equipped with Bisley hammer, trigger & gripframe) I shoot 325 grain LBT design bullets from a 5 inch barrel. The heavy for caliber bullet starts slower due to inertia and therefore exits the barrel slower (time frame) than a 240 grain bullet. It utilizes the powder charge more efficiently due to this longer dwell time. The .45 long colt can push this same weight LBT design bullet equally fast at lower pressures. This has been proven by John Linebaugh and others. However when comparing the 9mm vs .357 SIG we are talking about a bottleneck case and much shorter barrels. With the Ruger we are talking about 5 inches of barrel beyond the nose of the bullet. With a semiautomatic the barrel length includes the chamber. With the 26 & 33 the effective barrel length is indeed short. This makes powder burn rate even more critical as well as load selection tailored to barrel length. It doesn't matter how much more powder you burn after the bullet leaves the barrel.
Trust me, you could still learn more about ballistics. The use of a faster burn rate powder reduces the velocity difference over a slower rate powder and a longer barrel will make more use of a slower burning powder. However, even if some of the slower powder burns after the bullet is gone on the 357 sig., you will see the same 200fps difference in a G26 compared to a G33. They have 3.5" barrels and my handload that did 1,500fps out of a G32, did 1,450fps out of a G33. If you go much lower in barrel length the velocity gap between the 9mm +p+ and the 357 sig will be less, but it will always be there.

Why do you feel you have to compare the 9mm to the 357 sig in an attempt to say there is no real difference between the two? If you do not like the 357 sig for some reason that is OK the 9mm is agreat cartridge, but I think comparing a 9mm +p+ whose pressures are uncharted to a 357 sig within specfications is really stretching your argument.

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Old 02-27-2013, 10:42   #30
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I just got off the phone with Kevin. The .357 SIG was introduced as a Law Enforcement round designed more for deeper penetration, especially through barriers. As a civilian, my concern is energy dump within the target. The last thing I want in my house or out in public is over penetration. We must remember we can justify shooting to stop the threat not shooting to kill. I realize that sometimes stopping the threat equates with a kill. That said we can't justify in court a statement like I shot to kill. The 9mm 115 gr. +P+ loading from Underwood will yield excellent energy dump with a large mushroom while minimizing probability of over penetration. You are correct in saying different design bullets are used in the .357 SIG. These bullets don't yield as large a mushroom as they are designed more for penetration. When you have only a certain amount of energy to utilize, you must choose the bullet loaded around what your objective is. You must decide whether to bias your choice toward penetration or maximum energy dump. I question whether the .357 SIG is a prudent choice for EDC by a civilian. In fact the Law Enforcement Departments choosing this round seem to patrol mostly rural environments. This would probably be a bad choice in a metropolitan area.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:05   #31
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Did you see some of the testing on Youtube done by tnoutdoors9 on 357 sig rounds. If you watch them, you will see that the penetration of the 357 sig, at least in bullets he tested is not that great. Most around 12-13". I believe the Underwood 125gr GD had the greatest penetration at 14". You are right to think about this, but I do not see the penetration to be more than 9mm. I carry the Federal 125gr HST 357 sig. round and I would suggest you go to Youtube and watch that one.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:17   #32
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Glocks that shoot 357 sig are snappy, loud, flames shoot out the front of the barrel, and are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot.

I couldn't care less about ballistics; it's just not my thing.
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:17   #33
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Do a little research and find out what the 42,00 p.s.i. NATO loading in 9mm can do. Of course without FMJ bullets. With 115 grain hollowpoints I suspect it can do anything the .357 SIG can do.
Sure, push 9mm into 9mm major, handload it w/ a good bullet (read bonded), it is pretty close. The issue though, 9mm is NOT loaded that way w/ good JHP, so w/ factory loads in both, the 357sig has a 150fps advantage over 124gr+P+ loads. Does that matter, maybe, maybe not. If you want to tlak handloads in both, well you can get the 115gr JHP to 1600fps in the 357sig w/o bending anything. If you can get the bullet to hold together, it would be pretty devistating on soft targets.
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:32   #34
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I just got off the phone with Kevin. The .357 SIG was introduced as a Law Enforcement round designed more for deeper penetration, especially through barriers. As a civilian, my concern is energy dump within the target. The last thing I want in my house or out in public is over penetration. We must remember we can justify shooting to stop the threat not shooting to kill. I realize that sometimes stopping the threat equates with a kill.
So if someone is trying to kill you --- whether committing a crime or during a rampage --- you'd better have the wherewithal to stop the threat as quickly as possible. And there's no bright line at 21 feet where a defender says to him/herself, "Oh damn, the attacker is out of legal range and I don't want to have to explain myself to a jury so I'd better stop now".

If you're justified in defending yourself against a potentially deadly attack it won't make much difference if the attacker is 10 feet away or 100 yards away, at least in the majority of states and with honest, decent prosecutors. I'd want the best weapon available to me if I had to defend against a relatively distant attack, and that's why I'll say it again, .357sig has greater application than my 9mm because it has greater range and power.
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:03   #35
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We must remember we can justify shooting to stop the threat not shooting to kill. I realize that sometimes stopping the threat equates with a kill. That said we can't justify in court a statement like I shot to kill.
That's one of the dumbest things I've read on this or any other gun forum.
Good luck trying to get rule #2 rewritten to say "never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to STOP!
Destroy or Kill are the chosen words for a reason. If you want to try to stop some one and never intended on killing them then buy and use some mace or a stun gun.

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Old 02-27-2013, 14:25   #36
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If you think that statement is dumb. You obviously have never read any of Maas Ayoob's writings. He is considered one of this nations greatest experts in this field. He will advise you to never say to a police officer or in a court of law that you intended to kill the perp. He advises you to say you did what was necessary to stop his attack. If there are witnesses and you continue to shoot him while he is down and no longer a threat and he dies as a result, you will be charged with murder in many places. Go to U.S.A. Carry Forum and you will hear many more dumb comments like this. Some of them written by prosecutors and some by lawyers
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:29   #37
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I use the WW 9mm 115gr JHP+P+ load in my G17 3rdGen. I get 1400 FPS out of my 4.5-inch barrel.
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:38   #38
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That's one of the dumbest things I've read on this or any other gun forum.
Good luck trying to get rule #2 rewritten to say "never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to STOP!
Destroy or Kill are the chosen words for a reason. If you want to try to stop some one and never intended on killing them then buy and use some mace or a stun gun.
Willing to do something and intent are two different things. Dave is correct and I think you mean that you know you are using deadly force and accept the fact that your actions may lead to death. You are willing to take that action. However, you fear for your life and your intent is only to stop the threat. Once the person no longer poses a deadly threat to you, you will stop firing at that moment.

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Old 02-27-2013, 14:51   #39
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Willing to do something and intent are two different things. Dave is correct and I think you mean that you know you are using deadly force and accept the fact that your actions may lead to death. You are willing to take that action. However, you fear for your life and your intent is only to stop the threat. Once the person no longer poses a deadly threat to you, you will stop firing at that moment.
Well if a man has fired a gun at an innocent me, he is going down with a half-dozen +p+ 115gr JHPs in him. He'll be dead for sure.
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:07   #40
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Everyone should be careful what they put in posts, they are discoverable at a trial. In a self defense shooting, your intent is to only stop the deadly threat to you or someone else. Once a deadly threat no longer exists, you must stop deadly force at that moment. You should not talk about how lethal your ammunition is, only how effective it may be at stopping an attack.
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:07   #41
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It took me 3 YEARS to decide what to EDC and I work in a large gun shop.

I decided on a Gen 3 32 in 357 even with access to Sig, HK, Springfield, S+W, Kimber, FNH etc... (I am an FNH nut btw)

I frickin LOVE this gun and caliber combo!
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:09   #42
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I want to get some of those Underwood 357 Sig loads for my P229 and P239.
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:44   #43
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I want to get some of those Underwood 357 Sig loads for my P229 and P239.
Excellent choice!
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Old 02-27-2013, 16:45   #44
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Everyone should be careful what they put in posts, they are discoverable at a trial. In a self defense shooting, your intent is to only stop the deadly threat to you or someone else. Once a deadly threat no longer exists, you must stop deadly force at that moment. You should not talk about how lethal your ammunition is, only how effective it may be at stopping an attack.

I think this is great advice! Period!
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:43   #45
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If you think that statement is dumb. You obviously have never read any of Maas Ayoob's writings. He is considered one of this nations greatest experts in this field. He will advise you to never say to a police officer or in a court of law that you intended to kill the perp. He advises you to say you did what was necessary to stop his attack. If there are witnesses and you continue to shoot him while he is down and no longer a threat and he dies as a result, you will be charged with murder in many places. Go to U.S.A. Carry Forum and you will hear many more dumb comments like this. Some of them written by prosecutors and some by lawyers
We seem to be getting a bit far afield from the OP's issue but anyway ...

I agree with your assessment of Mas Ayoob's unquestioned expertise. One of the things I have been wondering about the past several months is ammo selection, and what has caused me to wonder is Mas's caution about using reloads for self-defense.

If a prosecutor has an eye on future political office without regard for the fate of those he/she places in the dock what prevents him/her from charging a defender for using a boutique ammunition that exceeds the published SAAMI standards?

If lightening the pull of a trigger by 0.5 pounds can lead to negligent homicide or even murder charges couldn't the same charges be brought for successfully defending oneself with ammo that pushes the envelope in pressure? American Big Ammo companies' products might give the prosecutor pause, but what about the small boutique company's ammo that exceeds SAAMI specs? Is it possible that, say, a 124-grain 9mm JHP designed to fly 300 fps faster than what the local LEO 9mm issue ammo does an ambitious prosecutor (like one who believes every semi-automatic handgun is an "assault weapon") might find it expeditious to charge a defender in the furtherance of his/her political career?

Like I said, we're getting far afield, but since the issue of legal liability has come up and you're apparently a fan of certain boutique ammos it might bear fruit to consider CCW with a .357sig instead of 9mm if your preferred 9mm carry round needs to go beyond SAAMI specs.

Just a thought that came to me some months ago ...
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Old 02-27-2013, 18:20   #46
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I want to get some of those Underwood 357 Sig loads for my P229 and P239.

Even more impressive is Underwood's 9x25 loads - 125 grain at 1700 fps. Unfortunately these won't fit in your SIGs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:02   #47
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I question whether the .357 SIG is a prudent choice for EDC by a civilian. In fact the Law Enforcement Departments choosing this round seem to patrol mostly rural environments. This would probably be a bad choice in a metropolitan area.
IT depends on the bullet you choose. Bonded 357sig loads will indeed penetrate deeper than sim 9mm going slower. A bonded bullet just doesn't expand/fragment the way a cup/core does. So if you want maximum tissue damage & limited penetration, a 125gr cup/core JHP @ 1400fps+ will give you that in the 357sig. Yes you will get more flash & bang & a bit more recoil than 124gr 9mm+P+, but there are no free lunches. Really, personal choice. Good ammo, good shooter, any real advantage is going to be minimal, but sometimes minimal advantage is what wins the day.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:49   #48
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IT depends on the bullet you choose. Bonded 357sig loads will indeed penetrate deeper than sim 9mm going slower. A bonded bullet just doesn't expand/fragment the way a cup/core does. So if you want maximum tissue damage & limited penetration, a 125gr cup/core JHP @ 1400fps+ will give you that in the 357sig. Yes you will get more flash & bang & a bit more recoil than 124gr 9mm+P+, but there are no free lunches. Really, personal choice. Good ammo, good shooter, any real advantage is going to be minimal, but sometimes minimal advantage is what wins the day.
A very good analysis!
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:52   #49
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Another advantage of the 357 SIG is reliable feeding. When the round comes from the magazine, you have a 9MM bullet going into a 10 MM hole. It is like loading the cartridge using a funnel. This is probably another reason that a lot of the early self-loading pistols used bottle-necked cartridges (7.6225 Tokarev, 7.6325 Mauser and 7.6521 Luger). The bottle-necked cartridge also allows more powder capacity for caliber. Almost all rifle cartridges are bottle-necked except for larger calibers like 45-70, 458, 600 & 700 Nitro express. Increasing the diameter of the case increases capacity exponentially (Pi times the radius squared times case length available for powder charge) just as increasing velocity increases energy exponentially (velocity squared times bullet weight in grains divided by 450,400).
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:55   #50
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Everyone should be careful what they put in posts, they are discoverable at a trial. In a self defense shooting, your intent is to only stop the deadly threat to you or someone else. Once a deadly threat no longer exists, you must stop deadly force at that moment. You should not talk about how lethal your ammunition is, only how effective it may be at stopping an attack.
I sometimes forget this good warning.
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