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Old 02-27-2013, 11:46   #101
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Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
.. with the officer asking; "Are there any weapons in the vehicle?" Some drivers will say; "I have nothing illegal in the vehicle."
I call that: a clue.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:16   #102
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Unless it has changed, the Garner case was the standard that is used to judge if the officer made the right call.
It is not.

Graham v. Connor is the standard in use of force cases. That case established that the use of force was a seizure, for constitutional purposes and established objective reasonableness as the standard in their analysis, specifically as judged from a reasonable and trained officer on the scene.

Garner addressed the use of deadly force to seize a fleeing felon.
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:48   #103
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Garner addressed the use of deadly force to seize a fleeing felon.
Yeah Tennessee v. Garner was a real kill-joy
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:57   #104
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
So while she ran the numbers you were left handcuffed in a prone position on the road way? Assuming near a roadway?


Maybe an NYSP guy can chime in soon.
Yes, while she ran the numbers I was in a prone position, face down with a Glock pointed at me. My son was crying and begging them not to shoot me. I can still hear it, and can also remembet at least one trooper teliing my son to "shut the f&*$ up". I can also remember the smirk on the female troopers face as she handed me back my unloaded pistol and told me to have a nice day.

I find it interesting you seem more interested where I was in relation to the road than my comment on off duty cops drunken activities when I was a bartender.
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:37   #105
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I find that entire scenario very hard to believe. I used to be a deputy down in Orange County and was a village cop over in Dutchess. Every single NYSP Trooper I have dealt with has been nothing but professional. Sullivan County Sheriffs have been great to work with in my experience as well. Can't even picture that in my head. But you say it happened, OK.
What bar? I don't drink but I have been to many local bars for fights and what not as a deputy.

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Old 02-27-2013, 14:46   #106
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Originally Posted by huron bay View Post
One thing a police officer can do to protect themselves from issues that can arise after the fact is to know your Department policy on Deadly Force. In the foregoing described McVeigh incident the troop had a car with no plate. This is more than just a car with a driver carrying a legal CW. I would not have pointed the weapon at the subject without additional information but I would sure as hell would have had it at the ready. If the officer has additional (vehicle description, subject description on the bombing) you would probably not have a problem. However, if a officer shoots a person that is carrying a CW legally accidentally or by mistake, good luck. You can be held accountable by State and or Federal both criminally and civil. These types of issues come up all the time. Unless it has changed, the Garner case was the standard that is used to judge if the officer made the right call. I'm not saying it is right, I'm saying that is what you are facing after a Fourth Amendment issue. Many would say it is not fair, you have a split second to decide, the courts have years to decide if you were right.

The officer in Illinois will at sometime in he career be involved in a suit, from someone who was carrying a CW lawfully, probably in Federal Court and it will be brought up pursuant to :
You failed on your quote of Supreme Court case law and your understanding of how a 1983 action really works.

Nothing in any court of law is determined based solely on an outcome, without considering the totality of the circumstances which led to that outcome.

Please stop trying to explain things that you obviously have no experience with.




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Old 02-27-2013, 15:51   #107
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Yes, while she ran the numbers I was in a prone position, face down with a Glock pointed at me. My son was crying and begging them not to shoot me. I can still hear it, and can also remembet at least one trooper teliing my son to "shut the f&*$ up". I can also remember the smirk on the female troopers face as she handed me back my unloaded pistol and told me to have a nice day.

I find it interesting you seem more interested where I was in relation to the road than my comment on off duty cops drunken activities when I was a bartender.
I have lived through other officers' drunken tomfoolery; they are no longer in LE. Please don't school me on being friends with a guy who does something stupid and loses his job because of it.


So there were two troopers involved? Unless she pointed a glock at you while in the car running your gun, something I can't do. We're you in a vehicle or a motorcycle?

You said this was last August?


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Old 02-27-2013, 16:14   #108
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I have lived through other officers' drunken tomfoolery; they are no longer in LE. Please don't school me on being friends with a guy who does something stupid and loses his job because of it.


So there were two troopers involved? Unless she pointed a glock at you while in the car running your gun, something I can't do. We're you in a vehicle or a motorcycle?

You said this was last August?


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There were 5 or 6 troopers involved. If memory serves, there were 2 troopers who were writing tickets for several motorcyclists when I got pulled over who came over as soon as they heard"gun", and a flat bed tow truck with several bikes on it. The trooper who pulled me over, the one who had his gun pointed at me while I was on the ground, and at least one other who was yelling at my son to calm down. I spent most of the time flat on my face and scared ****less, so I really can't give you many more details than that. And yes, I said August.
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:37   #109
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The troop putting her hands on you would be a use of force, let alone grabbing your hair, and taking you to the ground.

This is a lot different than pointing/displaying a gun, baton, OC, Taser to someone, which is the threat of force, and using it, which is use of force. While there may appear to be a subtle difference, it is not.

Excessive use of force gets an LEO criminally charged, sued, and fired.

I think most LEO's, let alone the people that visit this forum follow the school of thought that if you have to put your hands on someone, they go to jail.

Not following this causes a lot of skepticism.
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:51   #110
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There were 5 or 6 troopers involved. If memory serves, there were 2 troopers who were writing tickets for several motorcyclists when I got pulled over who came over as soon as they heard"gun", and a flat bed tow truck with several bikes on it. The trooper who pulled me over, the one who had his gun pointed at me while I was on the ground, and at least one other who was yelling at my son to calm down. I spent most of the time flat on my face and scared ****less, so I really can't give you many more details than that. And yes, I said August.

Was the weapon pointed at you the entire time you were in handcuffs?

Were you in a vehicle or on a motorcycle?

As raz stated, if I go through all that; you're going to jail.

How long would you say you were in custody for? Was your son just standing there on the side of the road?
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:13   #111
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Was the weapon pointed at you the entire time you were in handcuffs?

Were you in a vehicle or on a motorcycle?


As raz stated, if I go through all that; you're going to jail.

How long would you say you were in custody for? Was your son just standing there on the side of the road?
I don't think it was. I looked over to my son, who was screaming please don't shoot my daddy, and looked up and saw the pistol pointed at me. The trooper holding it told me if I was smart I would not move, or something to that effect. When I was picked up off the ground, it wasn't pointed at me.

I was on a motorcycle.

Why would I go to jail if I committed no crime? The only mistake I made was telling the trooper I had a licensed pistol on me when she asked me for my license, registration and insurance paper.

I was in custody for maybe 10 or 15 minutes, maybe a bit longer, maybe a bit less. It seemed a long time. My son was alongside the road, by my Harley.

Here we are:

Attachment 231593

As an aside, last month a State Trooper was in my son's class, doing some kind of safety presentation. My son was so upset at the sight of him he had to leave the class. I have tried to explain to him not all cops are bad, he says he doesn't believe me, and that he is scared to be around them. He say now if a cop ever comes near him he is going to run away. Hell of a way for an 11 year old boy to feel, isn't it.

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Old 02-27-2013, 20:38   #112
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I don't think it was. I looked over to my son, who was screaming please don't shoot my daddy, and looked up and saw the pistol pointed at me. The trooper holding it told me if I was smart I would not move, or something to that effect. When I was picked up off the ground, it wasn't pointed at me.

I was on a motorcycle.

Why would I go to jail if I committed no crime? The only mistake I made was telling the trooper I had a licensed pistol on me when she asked me for my license, registration and insurance paper.

I was in custody for maybe 10 or 15 minutes, maybe a bit longer, maybe a bit less. It seemed a long time. My son was alongside the road, by my Harley.

Here we are:

Attachment 231593

As an aside, last month a State Trooper was in my son's class, doing some kind of safety presentation. My son was so upset at the sight of him he had to leave the class. I have tried to explain to him not all cops are bad, he says he doesn't believe me, and that he is scared to be around them. He say now if a cop ever comes near him he is going to run away. Hell of a way for an 11 year old boy to feel, isn't it.


Why would you; as an assumably reasonable person, not file a complaint over this?

What date/location did this occur? I'm thinking an NYS trooper or two has seen this.
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:52   #113
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I agree, you certainly have the ability to tell us the story, why didnt you lodge a complaint?
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:23   #114
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I agree, you certainly have the ability to tell us the story, why didnt you lodge a tort?
My thoughts.

The reason I take people to jail if I must use force is because I don't use force unless it it necessary to stop a violent action, or effect an arrest... I take that back, every once in a while I have to use force to assist EMS with an ill diabetic, or after issuing an involuntary application for a mental health evaluation.

My thoughts are that if you must use force to effect something that is not a crime, then you probably used excessive force.

TBO made an excellent primer on the subject of force which is stickied in the coptalk forum.
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:37   #115
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I think in GA calling in the tag gives all info needed. Info like if the car has ins and who owns the car, etc. There should be no need to go in the glove box for paperwork. Holding a valid DL should be all required.
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:44   #116
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I think in GA calling in the tag gives all info needed. Info like if the car has ins and who owns the car, etc. There should be no need to go in the glove box for paperwork. Holding a valid DL should be all required.
I can do that in Texas but the Law says I can require the DRIVER to provide proof of financial responsibility.

Here is the other problem with your thoughts.

when I pull someone over, I have called in the plate but I dont have a return, I am going to get out and make contact. I want their DL and insurance. End of story, when I make contact, I dont know who they are or anything other than what I can see about the car.

When I return to my car, then I get a return on the plate (after I call in the DL) I can run it on my laptop if I want as well.

BTW, the system goes down. The system is off sometime. Sometime the system actually gives us a return that is "check manually" Point being, we do it the way we do it because that is how the system has evolved and represents best practices, no matter how you feel about it.

Having said all of that, I have been known to cut people a break who dont have proof of financial responsibility IF it comes back in the system they do. Officer discretion.
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:53   #117
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In addition to what Rabbi said, I ask for registration to test divided attention skills.
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:57   #118
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If you can legally carry a gun in a car without a CCW and see one in the glove box when opened for registration do you arrest the person? The person did not break a law.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:02   #119
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If you can legally carry a gun in a car without a CCW and see one in the glove box when opened for registration do you arrest the person? The person did not break a law.
Here, you wouldn't be CCW you'd be improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.

You would not pass go or collect 200$, you'd go straight to county.


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Old 02-27-2013, 22:10   #120
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I guess if you do not have a CCW hide the gun in the trunk....lol

I got my CCW in the 80. I never used it and let it laps. When I was threatened to have my body slammed dunked on the hwy doing the speed limit by a crazy driver behind me wanting me to go over the speed limit, I got another. I stopped to let him by, he stopped, and he hit my windshield with his fist and I looked away till he left.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:11   #121
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If you can legally carry a gun in a car without a CCW and see one in the glove box when opened for registration do you arrest the person? The person did not break a law.
No, and in general, no cop would. If you dont have PC for an arrest, you dont arrest someone. That is a pretty "Cop 101" thing.

Now, that doesnt mean there are not a number of options available to me. From doing nothing to the threat of deadly force. What the person does next dictates what the next option I exercise is.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:13   #122
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I guess if you do not have a CCW hide the gun in the trunk....lol

I got my CCW in the 80. I never used it and let it laps. When I was threatened to have my body slammed dunked on the hwy doing the speed limit by a crazy driver behind me wanting me to go over the speed limit, I got another. I stopped to let him by, he stopped, and he hit my windshield with his fist and I looked away till he left.
Your tactics were horrid in that situation.
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I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:15   #123
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What would you do in that situation as a civilian?
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:17   #124
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What would you do in that situation as a civilian?
Drive off.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:19   #125
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I though he might have a medical emergency and need to get past me. I did not realize he was full of road rage.
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