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Old 02-27-2013, 00:22   #76
Marlowe
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Originally Posted by billn View Post
Why finger CCW folks when you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW anyway?
The OP described an incident involving someone with a CCW wearing the pistol during a traffic stop...the OP's question related to this scenario. So, responses have been oriented towards that scenario.

As for firearms in the car, a lot depends on local law. In California, for instance, the gun must be in a locked container and unloaded. So, if an individual in California, without a permit, but lawfully transporting a firearm in this manner, in a locked container in the vehicle's trunk, I would not see any reason to inform, unless the circumstances of the stop suggested that was the prudent thing to do.

In Arizona, by contrast, one can carry without a permit...and so can have a gun in the car, without a permit. If that weapon is on the driver's person, the situation, tactically, is no different then the CCW situation and I would recommend informing.

If the gun is in the glove, box, let's say...and the driver has to reach into the glove box to get his vehicle registration, then the driver really MUST inform the officer, for everyone's safety.

If the gun is in the glove box, or center console, or in a gun rug under the seat, or some such place, and the driver does not have to reach into those locations for any reason, then it's a closer call as to whether to inform or not. I see no harm in informing the officer, but not as much necessity to do so in this instance, as opposed to the situation where the gun is on your person or in a location you may be reaching towards. Of course, if someone with a CCW has the gun off body somewhere in the car, the same analysis applies.

That said, and in an abundance of caution, I would recommend that people inform police during a traffic stop that there is an accessible weapon in the passenger compartment of the car, whether on or off body.

In a nutshell, look at it this way:

If you inform, what's the worse thing that can happen? As long as you're legal, the worst that can happen is maybe the stop takes a little bit longer, maybe it's a little inconvenient. You can always complain afterwards about how the stop was conducted by the officer.

If you don't inform, what the worse thing that can happen? The officer can discover the gun and suddenly you're at police gun point, in a potentially deadly situation.

To me, the choice is obvious, both from the standpoint of being a LEO, as I am now, and the standpoint of being a private citizen with a CCW, as I was before I was a LEO.
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:27   #77
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Originally Posted by billn View Post
If you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW why only ask CCW folks if they have a weapon? Would it not be prudent to ask all cars stopped if they have weapons?
Officer safety. I ask about weapons, but not on every traffic stop. If dispatch advised driver/occupant has CHL, I will ask where weapon is. I will then give instructions to driver/occupant about the weapon. Some dispatchers have automatically sent assisting officers when a CHL driver/occupant is discovered on a traffic stop. I know they mean well, but it isn't necessary for every stop unless requested or their is some type of CAD history associated with driver/occupant or with the vehicle.
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:32   #78
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There was a scene on AK State Troopers where an occupant/driver had a handgun under his leg. The trooper was not very happy with him. I can't remember, but I think the idiot didn't even declare it to the trooper. This event would have given me more cause to get the scumbag's earwax on the end of my Glock 23.
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:56   #79
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Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
Great example...I hadn't heard all those details.

Another example is Eric Rudolph, whom bombed a park in Atlanta during the Olympics and was on the FBI's 10 most wanted for years...he was captured by a patrol officer while going through a dumpster, IIRC.

You just never know who you're dealing with...
Here's a link to a page with a lot of info on the case, including trial transcripts:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...eightrial.html

The transcript of Trooper Hanger's testimony is here:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...igharrest.html

I've always liked the part where Hanger disarmed and arrested McVeigh, sat him in the front of his car, and then called dispatch on the phone because the radio was restricted to "emergency" use only because of the bombing. What a stud.

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Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
I'll say, maybe.

1) Was this a duty to inform state? I'm going to assume no, since there was no mention of it. So a gun gets pointed to the head of a person merely because the officer observes the person carrying a weapon?? The person was calm, not making any threats or gestures? How did the officer articulate the need to hold a gun to the persons head?

Would the same thing happen to a person encountered on the street?

2) Doesn't matter who the driver was eventually found out to be, at the time he was a compliant driver who may have had his license fall off the vehicle. If the driver was not McVeigh, I have a feeling the officer and his department would be facing a lawsuit.
I agree that it doesn't matter who the driver was. Police action is always valid at the time that it occurs or it is not. There is no 20/20 hindsight and there is no ends justifying the means. That said, I think this is a case that goes a long way towards justification of similar cases in the future and goes a long way towards giving some credit to the officer's intuition.

I think Hanger was on solid ground. I do not know if there was even a permit system in place in Oklahoma at the time, let alone a duty to notify. In one interview, Hanger said that he felt that he approached the vehicle, McVeigh would have shot him. I think that Hanger did what he had to do get home. Keep in mind that this was on rural interstate, he was alone, he had not called in the stop (radio use was restricted), and this was years before you could count on everybody having a cell phone. There are obviously a lot of "what-ifs", but a lot of them, in the case of McVeigh, could have easily resulted in an ODMP about the brave trooper who was killed by the man that just murdered over 160 people in OKC.

This is a risk management occupation. I can do a lot to ensure my safety by conducting every stop as a high risk stop with a long gun at the ready, but the public just isn't going to have it. That leaves all of us trying to make decisions that maximize our and the public's safety while minimizing the intrusion on the people with whom we interact. Sometimes our precautions cause them heartburn, sometimes our lack of precautions get us killed.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:33   #80
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Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined".
So, whether or not the local was wrong in his actions, you and your agency react by blowing it up into a full-blown cockfight to show who's is bigger and you admit that implicit bullying and blackmailing, using federal funds which have nothing to do with the situation, is part and parcel of how you handle interagency conflict? Got it.

Sort of reinforces my notion that the federal behemoth is really way out of hand and makes me happy to know that there are more than enough locals who tell the feds to back off or face arrest with the latest threat of federal gun ban laws.

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I find this entire scenario reeks of BS. I arrested a DEA agent for beating up his girlfriend and possessing a firearm while intoxicated, and his gun was seized. If some Fed supervisor came down and "ripped into" anybody and demanded anything, he would go right into a cell too. I don't work for the Feds nor do I care what they like or demand.

For the record my brother is a Fed and I have worked woth them in the past.
And the feds wonder why they have this image to overcome when working with locals.

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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
If he thinks like that, he should make it far in the department, that's your next chief of police right there.

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Originally Posted by billn View Post
Curious:

Do all states require a fingerprint and FBI background check for CCW? If so are not those folks least likely to be criminals?
Not in VT or AK where no permit is needed to CCW.

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Originally Posted by billn View Post
Do almost all states allow transporting your gun in your car? Even if not CCW?
CA requires long guns to be unloaded, and handguns and assault weapons to be unloaded and in a locked container. Basically, the gun cannot be in operable condition when inside a car.

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Why finger CCW folks when you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW anyway?
Anyone can carry a gun anywhere anytime with or without complying with the laws. That is what criminals do.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:53   #81
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Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
Here's a link to a page with a lot of info on the case, including trial transcripts:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...eightrial.html

The transcript of Trooper Hanger's testimony is here:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...igharrest.html
Thanks for the link!
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:28   #82
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I can't help but notice this is at least the second instance of police misconduct you've talked about.

A MAJORITY of folks go an entire lifetime without witnessing any sort of misconduct on the part of LE, yet you have two.


Like Rabbi stated: and then what happened?

What state?
The female trooper took my pistol, went back to her car, ran the numbers to make sure it wasn't stolen, checked my permit to see the numbers matched, and then I was bought up from the ground, uncuffed, given a lecture about how what they did was for their safety as well as mine, was handed back my unloaded pistol and told to go on my way. Did I ask to talk to a supervisor, threaten to file charges? Are you guys joking? I feel lucky I was able to leave in one piece. The troopers around here have bad enough attitudes, I don't need any with a vendetta gainst me.

This was in Sullivan County, New York. The road block was set up on Route 52, between Liberty and Loch Sheldrake. The State Police routinely set up roadblocks n summer weekends in my area, and pull over every motorcycle they see. They make a killing on fines from guys not wearing DOT approved helmets, not to mention guys who don't have motorcycle licenses.

As far as this being the 2nd example of police misconduct, I used to tend bar that had a lot of troopers hang out in it. I could give you dozens of examples of police misconduct that, had I done what they did, would have landed me in prison.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:51   #83
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The female trooper took my pistol, went back to her car, ran the numbers to make sure it wasn't stolen, checked my permit to see the numbers matched, and then I was bought up from the ground, uncuffed, given a lecture about how what they did was for their safety as well as mine, was handed back my unloaded pistol and told to go on my way. Did I ask to talk to a supervisor, threaten to file charges? Are you guys joking? I feel lucky I was able to leave in one piece. The troopers around here have bad enough attitudes, I don't need any with a vendetta gainst me.

This was in Sullivan County, New York. The road block was set up on Route 52, between Liberty and Loch Sheldrake. The State Police routinely set up roadblocks n summer weekends in my area, and pull over every motorcycle they see. They make a killing on fines from guys not wearing DOT approved helmets, not to mention guys who don't have motorcycle licenses.

As far as this being the 2nd example of police misconduct, I used to tend bar that had a lot of troopers hang out in it. I could give you dozens of examples of police misconduct that, had I done what they did, would have landed me in prison.

So while she ran the numbers you were left handcuffed in a prone position on the road way? Assuming near a roadway?


Maybe an NYSP guy can chime in soon.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:52   #84
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Here's a link to a page with a lot of info on the case, including trial transcripts:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...eightrial.html

The transcript of Trooper Hanger's testimony is here:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...igharrest.html

I've always liked the part where Hanger disarmed and arrested McVeigh, sat him in the front of his car, and then called dispatch on the phone because the radio was restricted to "emergency" use only because of the bombing. What a stud.



I agree that it doesn't matter who the driver was. Police action is always valid at the time that it occurs or it is not. There is no 20/20 hindsight and there is no ends justifying the means. That said, I think this is a case that goes a long way towards justification of similar cases in the future and goes a long way towards giving some credit to the officer's intuition.

I think Hanger was on solid ground. I do not know if there was even a permit system in place in Oklahoma at the time, let alone a duty to notify. In one interview, Hanger said that he felt that he approached the vehicle, McVeigh would have shot him. I think that Hanger did what he had to do get home. Keep in mind that this was on rural interstate, he was alone, he had not called in the stop (radio use was restricted), and this was years before you could count on everybody having a cell phone. There are obviously a lot of "what-ifs", but a lot of them, in the case of McVeigh, could have easily resulted in an ODMP about the brave trooper who was killed by the man that just murdered over 160 people in OKC.

This is a risk management occupation. I can do a lot to ensure my safety by conducting every stop as a high risk stop with a long gun at the ready, but the public just isn't going to have it. That leaves all of us trying to make decisions that maximize our and the public's safety while minimizing the intrusion on the people with whom we interact. Sometimes our precautions cause them heartburn, sometimes our lack of precautions get us killed.

Damn good read and should be mandatory in all academies.

Trooper Hanger was a boss through all of that.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:32   #85
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Thanks for the link!
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Damn good read and should be mandatory in all academies.

Trooper Hanger was a boss through all of that.
Glad you guys enjoyed it. I have no particular interest in the bombing, which is to say that I'm interested in it from an American and American law enforcement history perspective, but I find the way that everything came together and moreover the manner in which Trooper Hanger handled business truly an awesome story.

Hanger is right up there with guys like Jim Cirillo and Pierce Brooks in my book.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:34   #86
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Without reading every response in this thread because I don't have the time at the moment.... You encounter a driver on a unknown risk traffic stop for say speeding. You in a no notify state. The driver reaches for the glove compartment and his shirt rides up revealing a firearm in a holster on his hip (a gun he is not reaching for). You're seriously going to pull your gun out, put it near his head and handcuff him? For what? What is your legal justification for putting a gun at his head? I'm not saying, don't have your hand on yours, or even draw by your side. But seriously, you're putting it at his head and pulling him out of the car?

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:49   #87
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The case is a prime example of "you know you're a good guy, but we don't."
I used to be fond of saying, "Until the day bad guys start running around, holding up signs saying 'I'm a bad guy ', we have to assume EVERYONE could be a bad guy."



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Old 02-27-2013, 06:20   #88
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I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine.....

Blah, blah, blah... Yada,yada....

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.
Okay. So, the truth is, your story is based on secondhand knowledge and heresay. That's all you need to say.

The most humorous part about your story, is that you tell it like some Fed is going to chew a local's butt on the side of the road.

That definitely ain't gonna happen around here. We don't work for the Feds. Feds don't "outrank us". This isn't some cheesy 1980's movie, where the Feds roll in and tell us, "We're taking over your investigation...."

Doesn't work like that. Not even remotely.




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Old 02-27-2013, 06:31   #89
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TN does not require the HCP holder to notify when on a traffic stop, but HCP instructors encourage them to when they go through the class. When I run their DL it comes up that they are a HCP holder. I get a little peeved when they don't tell me they're armed.

Here's the million-dollar question: should LEOs be more concerned about the ones that tell them they're armed or the ones that don't want them to know? On some other forums I see plenty of posts about people bragging how they don't have to notify and they believe the LEO is going to do a,b,c to them if they DO notify. That's a bunch of crap. While there have been isolated encounters that didn't go well for a permit holder, in my neck of the woods they're few and far between. In 11 years on the job I have arrested a handful of permit holders. They were either intoxicated (DUI) or involved in some other criminal activity that lead to the arrest. I was involved in an arrest where one had dope in the vehicle and the serial number on the weapon was filed off. Needless to say ATF was happy to get in on that one.

Bottom line if you're responsible and courteous your weapon stays on you during the duration of the stop. If I choose to have you exit there's a bigger reason than the mere fact you have a permit to carry. We simply can't take the risk to assume that every permit holder is Mary Poppins with no intention to do a LEO harm. I can cite several news stories of permit holders who killed someone, including a LEO. While I know the majority are law abiding I'm not going to ever let my guard down. If the holder happens to get their feelings hurt they can always complain to the appropriate agency heads. I'm going to make sure I get home at the end of watch. I have yet to have a written complaint on me in 11 years from anyone.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:59   #90
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Pointing a weapon at somebody and having a negligent discharge are two completely different things. I would not be worried about pointing a weapon at somebody because I was worried about the gun going off accidentally. A backfire? Really?? If you have a negligent discharge, regardless of where that round goes, you should be questioning your choice of profession. If a firearm is drawn from its holster, it should be pointed in the direction of the threat. Your training and proficiency with a firearm (think professionalism as a police officer here)should dictate that your finger is not on the trigger, and that gun will not go off unless you intend it to. There is no excuse for an ND in any situation, let alone while it's drawn on a threat. If you don't draw your weapon for fear of an ND--no disrespect intended--hang it up and go home, you aren't doing anyone any good on the road.

If you are lawful, honest, and use courtesy along with a dose of common sense you should be able to go about your business with ease. Police officers have to point their guns at people from time to time. Case law has shown time and time again an officer has a reasonable right to his safety--judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer--not from the perspective of Joe Blow.

To maintain control over a potentially dangerous situation, it takes proactive action, not complacent reaction. Scientific research and expert testimony have established a person is incapable of reaction time fast enough to react to, much less stop a person intent on drawing and firing their weapon.

CCW is not protected by the Constitution. For that matter neither is legal open carry per se. Officer safety is paramount during any interaction with the police and if you are involved with a police officer while carrying a weapon on your person, prepare to have it removed and safeguarded during said interaction. No government conspiracy theories, no ego trips, just business living in a civilized, governed society. Just sayin.

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Old 02-27-2013, 07:10   #91
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Without reading every response in this thread because I don't have the time at the moment.... You encounter a driver on a unknown risk traffic stop for say speeding. You in a no notify state. The driver reaches for the glove compartment and his shirt rides up revealing a firearm in a holster on his hip (a gun he is not reaching for). You're seriously going to pull your gun out, put it near his head and handcuff him? For what? What is your legal justification for putting a gun at his head? I'm not saying, don't have your hand on yours, or even draw by your side. But seriously, you're putting it at his head and pulling him out of the car?
I'm in a 'shall notify' state, so it's worthless for me to debate how to handle this scenario in a 'no notify state'.

Second, is there really that much difference between drawing your gun and holding it to your side versus pointing it at someone or holding it at a low ready? Legally, I don't see much....

The thing is, the law allows us to threaten the use of deadly force, even when deadly force is not justified.

There's not a judge, jury, or IA investigator who will bat an eye at me pointing my gun at someone (anyone) who is armed as long as I can articulate.

So it all basically comes down to a matter of perception. I'm sorry, but I refuse to allow someone else's perception compromise my safety.



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Old 02-27-2013, 07:11   #92
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Here's the million-dollar question: should LEOs be more concerned about the ones that tell them they're armed or the ones that don't want them to know?
Read my first two posts in this thread, and you've got my answer.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:14   #93
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Why doesn't he already? Does he expect the bad guys to wear black hats, and have a sign too? IMHO, unprofessional.
I don't know.

I know some of his history as an officer, and not all of it's good. Maybe the two issues are related.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:15   #94
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Pointing a weapon at somebody and having a negligent discharge are two completely different things. I would not be worried about pointing a weapon at somebody because I was worried about the gun going off accidentally. A backfire? Really?? If you have a negligent discharge, regardless of where that round goes, you should be questioning your choice of profession. If a firearm is drawn from its holster, it should be pointed in the direction of the threat. Your training and proficiency with a firearm (think professionalism as a police officer here)should dictate that your finger is not on the trigger, and that gun will not go off unless you intend it to. There is no excuse for an ND in any situation, let alone while it's drawn on a threat. If you don't draw your weapon for fear of an ND--no disrespect intended--hang it up and go home, you aren't doing anyone any good on the road.

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Very good point. Over the years, I've pointed my gun at countless people. Never had a ND.

The only one I've shot wasn't an accident. He kinda had that one coming when he tried to kill me.


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Old 02-27-2013, 07:17   #95
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The only one I've shot wasn't an accident. He kinda had that one coming when he tried to kill me.


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Old 02-27-2013, 07:19   #96
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This seems like an appropriate place to leave this...

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If you're a cop, you really do act politely and have a plan to kill everyone. You're hunting bad people, and sooner or later you're going to find them. Gacy really did look like a clown. Bundy seemed like a gentleman. McVeigh was a pretty clean-cut kid. Sadly, they looked nothing like the villians on TV, and there was no creepy music as a clue. Plan for it, and watch their hands.
I can't remember exactly who I stole this from. I think it was Sam.


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Old 02-27-2013, 07:46   #97
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Location: The Great State of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
Okay. So, the truth is, your story is based on secondhand knowledge and heresay. That's all you need to say.

The most humorous part about your story, is that you tell it like some Fed is going to chew a local's butt on the side of the road.

That definitely ain't gonna happen around here. We don't work for the Feds. Feds don't "outrank us". This isn't some cheesy 1980's movie, where the Feds roll in and tell us, "We're taking over your investigation...."

Doesn't work like that. Not even remotely.

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I know my Chief and Sheriff would support the local law. They might look in the Texas penal code and say they cant find that agency listed as having powers of arrest, they might ask the agents if they can arrest for running a red light, or arrest for a DWI. Most times when a Fed has his gun taken away or a Fed is arrested our Chief calls their boss and they send over a person to pick up that agents creds and weapon. Nearest office's are about an hour drive, yet a boss always comes to pick up the items, and most times our Chief does not meet with them. If he does meet, he always gives his business card and says "If you ever have agents in the area again, give us a heads up, we are more than willing to help."

Local uniformed officers in marked patrol cars trump anyone in plain clothes for officer safety and powers of arrest.

I point my gun at people all the time, as action beats reaction. There is no law that says me pointing a loaded pistol at you and giving you orders is illegal, but you not following orders can be illegal, and deadly...
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:34   #98
razdog76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billn View Post
If you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW why only ask CCW folks if they have a weapon? Would it not be prudent to ask all cars stopped if they have weapons?
I don't ask, I treat everyone as if they are armed on a traffic stop through. It doesn't mean I am rude, or abusive in any way. I look at traffic stops as an opportunity to give people a good impression... every motorist gets stopped sooner or later, no sense in turning it into a negative experience played all over youtube.

Ohio law requires disclosure, and defines the legal methods of transporting firearms in vehicles. If its in the trunk... its certainly less of a threat.

Still, if I notice valuable things, such as extra car stereos, guns, atv's I will check the SN's to see if they have been entered as stolen items. Takes a minute, and easy to explain to the driver that if they had reported a like item stolen, they would want to see some effort put into recovering it.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:47   #99
huron bay
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One thing a police officer can do to protect themselves from issues that can arise after the fact is to know your Department policy on Deadly Force. In the foregoing described McVeigh incident the troop had a car with no plate. This is more than just a car with a driver carrying a legal CW. I would not have pointed the weapon at the subject without additional information but I would sure as hell would have had it at the ready. If the officer has additional (vehicle description, subject description on the bombing) you would probably not have a problem. However, if a officer shoots a person that is carrying a CW legally accidentally or by mistake, good luck. You can be held accountable by State and or Federal both criminally and civil. These types of issues come up all the time. Unless it has changed, the Garner case was the standard that is used to judge if the officer made the right call. I'm not saying it is right, I'm saying that is what you are facing after a Fourth Amendment issue. Many would say it is not fair, you have a split second to decide, the courts have years to decide if you were right.

The officer in Illinois will at sometime in he career be involved in a suit, from someone who was carrying a CW lawfully, probably in Federal Court and it will be brought up pursuant to :

42 USC § 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights





USCPrelim is a preliminary release and may be subject to further revision before it is released again as a final version.
Current through Pub. L. 112-238. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

Last edited by huron bay; 02-27-2013 at 08:48..
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:24   #100
series1811
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I guess there are a ton of stories where LE jacks up LE, but we usually take it better than citizen gun carriers.

Two agents I know were speeding, and a Florida HP stopped them and then handcuffed and took the driving agent's gun, when the agent told him he was armed.

The passenger agent, who was kind of a wise ass, started laughing at the other agent and the HP asked him, "Do you think this is funny?"

He said, "Yeah, I do, that's why I'm laughing."

When you know it's all going to get worked out in the wash, why get upset by it?
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