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Old 02-26-2013, 20:07   #61
GlockFanWA
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I used to help teach a firearm safety course in Maine, required for people wanting a CFL. We would tell people you don't have to tell an officer you are carrying but we highly advise that if stopped you tell him you have a CFL and you are carrying then wait for the officer to tell you what to do. Some would do nothing, some may go further.
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:10   #62
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OP, good thought provoking thread. Good to read all the LEO responses. In MS, it is legal to have a concealed weapon in your vehicle with or without permit, no duty to inform unless asked. The couple of interactions with LEO I have had, I have never been asked, and no I did not inform. Just kept my hands on steering wheel until told to retrieve my license. Although I can safely say a weapon in the vehicle is common around here, I will probably inform by handing my CCW license if I am stopped again.

Thanks again OP and LEOs for the info. Gives a lot to think about

Last edited by Pwhfirefighter; 02-26-2013 at 20:11..
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:17   #63
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I'll also throw a scenario out there...

State Trooper tooling along at well above posted trying to make it to the scene of a previous accident to take photos before he gets called away sees a car with no plate, so he stops it. On contact, the driver steps out and walks back to the rear of the stopped vehicle with both of his hands in sight. The driver is polite and calm, but when the trooper requests the driver's license, the reaching motion causes the driver's jacket to bunch up around an object under one arm. The trooper thinks it's a gun and the driver states that it is.

The trooper has the driver turn around and puts his own (the trooper's gun) to the back of the driver's head. He leads the driver to the trunk of the stopped vehicle, sprawls him out over it, removes the gun, and tosses it on the shoulder. The driver remains calm and discloses that he has a spare magazine and a knife, which the trooper removes and throws on the roadside.

Keep in mind that this is only a stop for no license plates, the driver is calm and compliant, he does not come back wanted, and the gun does not come back stolen.

Two questions:

1) Were the trooper's actions appropriate and reasonable.

2) Who was the driver?
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:35   #64
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Yes, and Timothy McVeigh. Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper Charlie Hanger.
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:45   #65
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Originally Posted by Austin Millbarge View Post
Yes, and Timothy McVeigh. Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper Charlie Hanger.
You would be correct.

Hanger stopped McVeigh on the day of the bombing for not having license plates on his car. Two days later when McVeigh was identified as a suspect and a warrant was issued, investigators learned that he was sitting in jail in Oklahoma.

The case is a prime example of "you know you're a good guy, but we don't."
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:50   #66
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Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
When you're pulled over by a uniformed officer, you KNOW you're being stopped by the police. You also know what's in your own heart and mind, and what you will do. You know who is in the car with you (and, hopefully, what sort of people they are). You know whether you're armed, and with what, and whether you are legally armed or not.


(snipped a lot of his post, but read it, its excellent)

Thank you for helping me understand better the mindset and decision making in the scenarios I described. Your post is a huge reason why I hang out here.
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:04   #67
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
They all broke out into spontaneous song:
That was a great reminder of why I bought premium speakers and a subwoofer for my computer.

Let the record reflect, I brought up McVeigh in post #12.
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Last edited by razdog76; 02-26-2013 at 21:19..
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:58   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Fly View Post
(snipped a lot of his post, but read it, its excellent)

Thank you for helping me understand better the mindset and decision making in the scenarios I described. Your post is a huge reason why I hang out here.
Thank you, for taking the time to read my post, which was long. I'm very glad you found it to be informative and useful...

Conversing with those in and out of LE is a huge reason why I hang out here...
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:01   #69
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Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
You would be correct.

Hanger stopped McVeigh on the day of the bombing for not having license plates on his car. Two days later when McVeigh was identified as a suspect and a warrant was issued, investigators learned that he was sitting in jail in Oklahoma.

The case is a prime example of "you know you're a good guy, but we don't."
Great example...I hadn't heard all those details.

Another example is Eric Rudolph, whom bombed a park in Atlanta during the Olympics and was on the FBI's 10 most wanted for years...he was captured by a patrol officer while going through a dumpster, IIRC.

You just never know who you're dealing with...
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Last edited by Marlowe; 02-26-2013 at 22:08..
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:06   #70
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Why finger CCW folks when you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW anyway?
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:16   #71
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Why finger CCW folks when you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW anyway?
Please explain, there are the laws of 50 states to consider.
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:19   #72
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If you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW why only ask CCW folks if they have a weapon? Would it not be prudent to ask all cars stopped if they have weapons?
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Old 02-26-2013, 23:38   #73
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Nothing, other than advising them to not to make any sudden moves to the weapon.

PA has no duty to inform the officer. I've read stories where the driver informed and nothing happened and I've read stories where they informed the officer and it pretty much turned into a felony stop, ie, having a gun stuck in their ear.

On another forum, a question was posed about informing the officer (in a non-duty to inform state) with the officer asking; "Are there any weapons in the vehicle?" Some drivers will say; "I have nothing illegal in the vehicle."

A person who claimed to be an officer said if he subsequently found that the person was carrying, he would cite the driver for everything he could to include having him out of the vehicle and bent over the hood for being "cute".

I responded with the fact that while he may have thought it was "cute", the driver was truthful, in his own way. In addition, the driver was under no obligation to answer that question.
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Old 02-26-2013, 23:46   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
I'll also throw a scenario out there...

State Trooper tooling along at well above posted trying to make it to the scene of a previous accident to take photos before he gets called away sees a car with no plate, so he stops it. On contact, the driver steps out and walks back to the rear of the stopped vehicle with both of his hands in sight. The driver is polite and calm, but when the trooper requests the driver's license, the reaching motion causes the driver's jacket to bunch up around an object under one arm. The trooper thinks it's a gun and the driver states that it is.

The trooper has the driver turn around and puts his own (the trooper's gun) to the back of the driver's head. He leads the driver to the trunk of the stopped vehicle, sprawls him out over it, removes the gun, and tosses it on the shoulder. The driver remains calm and discloses that he has a spare magazine and a knife, which the trooper removes and throws on the roadside.

Keep in mind that this is only a stop for no license plates, the driver is calm and compliant, he does not come back wanted, and the gun does not come back stolen.

Two questions:

1) Were the trooper's actions appropriate and reasonable.

2) Who was the driver?
I'll say, maybe.

1) Was this a duty to inform state? I'm going to assume no, since there was no mention of it. So a gun gets pointed to the head of a person merely because the officer observes the person carrying a weapon?? The person was calm, not making any threats or gestures? How did the officer articulate the need to hold a gun to the persons head?

Would the same thing happen to a person encountered on the street?

2) Doesn't matter who the driver was eventually found out to be, at the time he was a compliant driver who may have had his license fall off the vehicle. If the driver was not McVeigh, I have a feeling the officer and his department would be facing a lawsuit.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:09   #75
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Here in Florida CCW holders are not required to inform the police that they are carrying.
Our state has the most CCW holders in the country and I just assume everybody I pull over is armed. When people tell me that they are armed, I just ask them to keep theirs hands where I can see them.
I will not draw on somebody just because he has a gun on hum and is not trying to get it out. I may unholster and move towards the back of the car, while I figure if he has a CCW.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:22   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billn View Post
Why finger CCW folks when you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW anyway?
The OP described an incident involving someone with a CCW wearing the pistol during a traffic stop...the OP's question related to this scenario. So, responses have been oriented towards that scenario.

As for firearms in the car, a lot depends on local law. In California, for instance, the gun must be in a locked container and unloaded. So, if an individual in California, without a permit, but lawfully transporting a firearm in this manner, in a locked container in the vehicle's trunk, I would not see any reason to inform, unless the circumstances of the stop suggested that was the prudent thing to do.

In Arizona, by contrast, one can carry without a permit...and so can have a gun in the car, without a permit. If that weapon is on the driver's person, the situation, tactically, is no different then the CCW situation and I would recommend informing.

If the gun is in the glove, box, let's say...and the driver has to reach into the glove box to get his vehicle registration, then the driver really MUST inform the officer, for everyone's safety.

If the gun is in the glove box, or center console, or in a gun rug under the seat, or some such place, and the driver does not have to reach into those locations for any reason, then it's a closer call as to whether to inform or not. I see no harm in informing the officer, but not as much necessity to do so in this instance, as opposed to the situation where the gun is on your person or in a location you may be reaching towards. Of course, if someone with a CCW has the gun off body somewhere in the car, the same analysis applies.

That said, and in an abundance of caution, I would recommend that people inform police during a traffic stop that there is an accessible weapon in the passenger compartment of the car, whether on or off body.

In a nutshell, look at it this way:

If you inform, what's the worse thing that can happen? As long as you're legal, the worst that can happen is maybe the stop takes a little bit longer, maybe it's a little inconvenient. You can always complain afterwards about how the stop was conducted by the officer.

If you don't inform, what the worse thing that can happen? The officer can discover the gun and suddenly you're at police gun point, in a potentially deadly situation.

To me, the choice is obvious, both from the standpoint of being a LEO, as I am now, and the standpoint of being a private citizen with a CCW, as I was before I was a LEO.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:27   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billn View Post
If you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW why only ask CCW folks if they have a weapon? Would it not be prudent to ask all cars stopped if they have weapons?
Officer safety. I ask about weapons, but not on every traffic stop. If dispatch advised driver/occupant has CHL, I will ask where weapon is. I will then give instructions to driver/occupant about the weapon. Some dispatchers have automatically sent assisting officers when a CHL driver/occupant is discovered on a traffic stop. I know they mean well, but it isn't necessary for every stop unless requested or their is some type of CAD history associated with driver/occupant or with the vehicle.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:32   #78
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There was a scene on AK State Troopers where an occupant/driver had a handgun under his leg. The trooper was not very happy with him. I can't remember, but I think the idiot didn't even declare it to the trooper. This event would have given me more cause to get the scumbag's earwax on the end of my Glock 23.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:56   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
Great example...I hadn't heard all those details.

Another example is Eric Rudolph, whom bombed a park in Atlanta during the Olympics and was on the FBI's 10 most wanted for years...he was captured by a patrol officer while going through a dumpster, IIRC.

You just never know who you're dealing with...
Here's a link to a page with a lot of info on the case, including trial transcripts:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...eightrial.html

The transcript of Trooper Hanger's testimony is here:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...igharrest.html

I've always liked the part where Hanger disarmed and arrested McVeigh, sat him in the front of his car, and then called dispatch on the phone because the radio was restricted to "emergency" use only because of the bombing. What a stud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
I'll say, maybe.

1) Was this a duty to inform state? I'm going to assume no, since there was no mention of it. So a gun gets pointed to the head of a person merely because the officer observes the person carrying a weapon?? The person was calm, not making any threats or gestures? How did the officer articulate the need to hold a gun to the persons head?

Would the same thing happen to a person encountered on the street?

2) Doesn't matter who the driver was eventually found out to be, at the time he was a compliant driver who may have had his license fall off the vehicle. If the driver was not McVeigh, I have a feeling the officer and his department would be facing a lawsuit.
I agree that it doesn't matter who the driver was. Police action is always valid at the time that it occurs or it is not. There is no 20/20 hindsight and there is no ends justifying the means. That said, I think this is a case that goes a long way towards justification of similar cases in the future and goes a long way towards giving some credit to the officer's intuition.

I think Hanger was on solid ground. I do not know if there was even a permit system in place in Oklahoma at the time, let alone a duty to notify. In one interview, Hanger said that he felt that he approached the vehicle, McVeigh would have shot him. I think that Hanger did what he had to do get home. Keep in mind that this was on rural interstate, he was alone, he had not called in the stop (radio use was restricted), and this was years before you could count on everybody having a cell phone. There are obviously a lot of "what-ifs", but a lot of them, in the case of McVeigh, could have easily resulted in an ODMP about the brave trooper who was killed by the man that just murdered over 160 people in OKC.

This is a risk management occupation. I can do a lot to ensure my safety by conducting every stop as a high risk stop with a long gun at the ready, but the public just isn't going to have it. That leaves all of us trying to make decisions that maximize our and the public's safety while minimizing the intrusion on the people with whom we interact. Sometimes our precautions cause them heartburn, sometimes our lack of precautions get us killed.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:33   #80
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined".
So, whether or not the local was wrong in his actions, you and your agency react by blowing it up into a full-blown cockfight to show who's is bigger and you admit that implicit bullying and blackmailing, using federal funds which have nothing to do with the situation, is part and parcel of how you handle interagency conflict? Got it.

Sort of reinforces my notion that the federal behemoth is really way out of hand and makes me happy to know that there are more than enough locals who tell the feds to back off or face arrest with the latest threat of federal gun ban laws.

Quote:
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I find this entire scenario reeks of BS. I arrested a DEA agent for beating up his girlfriend and possessing a firearm while intoxicated, and his gun was seized. If some Fed supervisor came down and "ripped into" anybody and demanded anything, he would go right into a cell too. I don't work for the Feds nor do I care what they like or demand.

For the record my brother is a Fed and I have worked woth them in the past.
And the feds wonder why they have this image to overcome when working with locals.

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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
If he thinks like that, he should make it far in the department, that's your next chief of police right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billn View Post
Curious:

Do all states require a fingerprint and FBI background check for CCW? If so are not those folks least likely to be criminals?
Not in VT or AK where no permit is needed to CCW.

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Do almost all states allow transporting your gun in your car? Even if not CCW?
CA requires long guns to be unloaded, and handguns and assault weapons to be unloaded and in a locked container. Basically, the gun cannot be in operable condition when inside a car.

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Why finger CCW folks when you can carry a gun in your car without a CCW anyway?
Anyone can carry a gun anywhere anytime with or without complying with the laws. That is what criminals do.
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