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Old 02-26-2013, 11:17   #41
billn
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Curious:

Do all states require a fingerprint and FBI background check for CCW? If so are not those folks least likely to be criminals?
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:18   #42
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Originally Posted by oldgraywolf View Post

If I were a cop, I'd appreciate the heads up. It's simple courtesy, has very little to do with "rights."
Sure, but if you're concerned about being kind to your fellow man you have little ability to thump your chest about some perceived deprivation of your rights.

I've been stopped once while CCW out of state (I live in Ilinois but have an out-of-state non-resident permit). I think it was an Indiana or Kentucky state trooper. Not sure which. But I gave the trooper the heads up. He asked where I had it and just said "leave it there."

My brother, who was sworn LE from isn't any longer, got stopped in Mississippi and got the "I won't touch mine if you don't touch yours" response when he declared.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:19   #43
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Originally Posted by billn View Post
Curious:

Do all states require a fingerprint and FBI background check for CCW? If so are not those folks least likely to be criminals?
That doesn't matter. Just because you were a law abiding citizen one day doesn't mean you're quite as upstanding the next.

There's a guy in my jurisdiction who was just sentenced to probation on a felony DUI but it was common knowledge he was legally purchasing firearms and funneling them to a local gang. But nobody would dime him out..... cause he was scoring them guns.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:22   #44
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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
Our recently retired state police area commander is against citizen CCW. I belong to a service organization with another long retired state police commander and the local city police chief. Both have mentioned that to me and it surprised me. Every other cop I've known or dealt with in my area is very much pro-carry.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:52   #45
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You do not disclose your CCW status to a Police Officer but have your car full of "I own guns" stickers, and somehow think that "concealed is concealed" still applies?
Just because I own them doesn't mean I'm carrying one

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:00   #46
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Just because I own them doesn't mean I'm carrying one

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But it makes the assumption far more powerful, for cops and civilians alike. It takes half the surprise off.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:00   #47
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Those of you who are 100% opposed to the thought that the officer would draw upon seeing the undisclosed firearm, particularly those of you who are police officers, should read the latest Force Science Institute bulletin. It came out yesterday and should hit the archives on their website if you are not a subscriber (you should be if you are not).

It specifically detailed officer positioning on traffic stops and what positions are most survivable when the driver suddenly produces a gun. They proved, yet again, that action always beats reaction and that the "suspect" was almost always able to produce the gun and fire a shot before the officer would be able to react if they had their gun out and trained on the person. That should tell you something.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:05   #48
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I can understand why an officer would pull his gun and point it at the suspect in the ablove situation, and I can also understand why an officer would not. I would suggest that in most jurisdictions an officer would be more than justified to point is gun at the suspect and that in most jurisdictions if force was used in a case such as this, it would be a tragedy but it most likely would not end up being a criminal matter. Police even shoot unarmed people and it ends up being justified.

I am also a firm believer that many/most/nearly all good officers develop some instincts that they may not be able to always verbalize. It may be sub-conscious thoughts that officers have based on verbal, non-verbal, visual, physical cues, etc. but that may be best left for another thread. Based on that, I would be extremely reluctant to criticize an officer who did elect to draw and point his gun and I would be extremely reluctant to criticize and officer who did not elect to draw and point his gun at a driver who inadvertently allowed their gun to show.

An officer's experience and training need to be considered along with other factors such as the frequency of officers encountering gun carriers who are legal and who are not. Different juridictions have different ratios of people carrying legitimately versus carrying illegally and this may even be unique from one neighborhood to another. I realize that this is not answering the question but my opinion is that in this case either answer is correct.

I have said it here before. The driver does not know that which the officer may. The driver may think it is a routine traffic stop but the officer may be looking at the car as a potential vehicle used in a crime. Because of that I believe that whether or not required, the driver notifying the officer he is armed has far more benefits for far more drivers than it has detrimental consequences.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:56   #49
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Originally Posted by PuroMexicano View Post
But it makes the assumption far more powerful, for cops and civilians alike. It takes half the surprise off.
Yes I admit. I own guns and want the world to know I'm for right wing. Nothing wrong with that. It might even prevent a situation while I'm in the vehicle, especially when I'm not carrying to and from work where weapons are prohibited on property. In reality, many people own guns and don't carry for protection. So the stickers don't mean anything other than that I support the 2nd amendment. But when I'm in a bank, store, or anywhere, I still retain that element of surprise.

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Old 02-26-2013, 13:12   #50
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Do almost all states allow transporting your gun in your car? Even if not CCW?
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Old 02-26-2013, 14:24   #51
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Do almost all states allow transporting your gun in your car? Even if not CCW?
I can only speak about Texas. You can carry a concealed handgun in your vehicle or a vehicle under your control without a license. But remember, concealed is the key word there. There are more details associated with that law(Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS), but I'll let anyone who wants to, to look it up for themselves.
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:20   #52
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Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.
PM me. I am curious what class you were. Most of my class moved on, but we were all spread from hell to breakfast. Maybe were in the same class. I heard a similar story when I was in about overzealous locals wanting to try to yank BPA's pistols. Hell, I got into a pissing match with one SO that was picking up a guy at my checkpoint and tried to tell me that BPA's couldn't carry. We agreed to disagree when I told him, "You can try and take it, but you won't like the result."
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:22   #53
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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
Why doesn't he already? Does he expect the bad guys to wear black hats, and have a sign too? IMHO, unprofessional.
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:57   #54
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When you're pulled over by a uniformed officer, you KNOW you're being stopped by the police. You also know what's in your own heart and mind, and what you will do. You know who is in the car with you (and, hopefully, what sort of people they are). You know whether you're armed, and with what, and whether you are legally armed or not.

You may not know why you were stopped, and you don't know whether you will get a ticket, or what the outcome of the stop will be.

All in all, though, you've got a lot of information on your side.

The officer, on the other hand, knows why he has stopped you. Beyond that, the officer is mostly facing unknowns...here are a few of them:

Who is the driver? Is the driver under the influence of anything? Has the driver any reason to be hostile to police? Does the driver have a criminal history, a history of violence? Has the driver ever assaulted a LEO?

Is the driver armed?

Who else is in the car? Who are they? Are they armed?

Are there weapons in the car?

Is there contraband in the car?

Is ANYONE in the car a threat?

Many officers refer to the walk from their vehicle to yours as "the death walk", since so many cops have been killed on "routine" stops. Police learn to make tactical choices based on threat possibility, not threat probability.

That's a key distinction between the LEO mindset and the non-LEO mindset: the non-LEO public tends to assess whether a threat is PROBABLE and make choices accordingly, whereas the LEO assesses whether a threat is POSSIBLE and makes choices accordingly.

For example, police are taught to park a few doors down from the location they've been dispatched to, whether it's a loud noise complaint, or something more serious. They do so, because the situation is essentially an unknown and a threat is POSSIBLE. They also won't stand in front of your door when they knock, even if you're a victim reporting a crime. Is it probable you will shoot through the door? No, but its possible and that's why they act as they do.

They are constantly trying to mitigate risk in a very risky world. Moreover, they must mitigate risk AND stay within the bounds of the law and their department's policy.

Hey, it would be SAFER to conduct EVERY traffic stop as a felony stop, but the public and the courts would not tolerate that...and, therefore, no department would allow such an extreme approach. Department policy and the law will control the extent of the officer safety measures the LEO may employ in a given situation.

Anyway, if you understand the difference in mindset between LEO and non-LEO (i.e., tactical choices being made based on threat possibility vs. threat probability) you will better interact with police in a given situation. You may object to the LEO mindset, but it is what it is and you will be better off if you at least understand it.

Back to the traffic stop scenario:

I'm a federal agent. When I'm stopped by police for whatever reason, I know all the unknowns that I present to the officer. I know I'm a LEO, but know the officer doesn't know that yet. By contrast, I also know exactly who the officer is: a LEO doing a dangerous job. I know that he must consider me a potential threat until the stop is concluded...and that his tactics will take this into account.

So, I try to remove as many unknowns as possible. I will roll down my windows, turn OFF the engine and the radio, turn ON interior lights at night, and place my hands on the steering wheel. I will inform the officer I'm a LEO and armed, for our mutual safety. I keep my credentials handy so they are easily accessed without having to make a lot of moves. I keep my vehicle registration in a holder on the visor, so that I don't have to reach into the glove box. I want to move only when told, and then slowly and as little as possible.

I will do exactly what he tells me to do. If I'm unhappy with the way he handles the stop, I can always request that his supervisor respond to the scene, or make a complaint after the stop. But, during the stop itself. I'm going to comply, and with no attitude, to all instructions.

Guess what? After 16 years on the job, and my share of stops, I've never had a bad experience. I treat the officer with courtesy and have always been treated the same way.

I would recommend that folks carrying a weapon with a CCW, whether required or not, follow a similar course of action during a stop.

If you don't inform, and the officer spots the weapon, expect the situation to get very tense, very fast. And it's completely unnecessary. You can remove a lot of the unknowns from the equation, and most officers will recognize and appreciate that.

The OP describes an instance where the driver did not inform, but the driver's movements inadvertently revealed the driver's holstered gun. In response, the officer drew his weapon. I think it was reasonable that he did so. The driver's threat potential just elevated significantly by the fact that he had an undisclosed weapon on his person, and the driver's intent remained unknown to the officer. Action beats reaction, and the officer drew his weapon in anticipation of the possibility that the the driver was a threat, a possibility increased by the driver being in possession of both a deadly weapon and an unknown intent.

The driver could have avoided that situation by informing.

Some don't want to, thinking, "if the officer doesn't know about the gun, why complicate things? I'll just take my ticket and go." If that's what you choose to do, recognize that you're taking a chance that the officer will NOT somehow discover the gun...and, if he DOES discover you're armed without help from you, he will consider you a potential threat until he sorts it out and will act accordingly.

At the very least, for those who legally choose not to inform, I recommend that you strongly consider informing if directed to get out of the car and have weapons on you. If you don't, the chance of the weapon being discovered by the officer increases as you move from the vehicle and follow the officer's instructions.

Again, if the officer discovers your weapon WITHOUT your help, expect things to get very tense, very fast.
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Old 02-26-2013, 18:00   #55
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I retired in 2001 and things may have changed since then. For many years I was a field officer that also was responsible to train officers in the District in areas of defensive/firearms tactics. Deadly force used to be guided by a Supreme Court case known as Tennessee v Garner. (Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force only to prevent escape if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.)

A police officer can pull his weapon in a traffic stop but to point it at a subject who is carrying legally and is violating no law/statute is very risky. Anyone reading this knows that **** happens. If that weapon goes off accidentally, good luck, you will be charged with the shooting.

Best rule of thumb, if you are legally carrying a CW and come in contact with the police not only in a traffic stop but any time you come in contact with the police. First thing out of your mouth. "Iím a licensed CCW officer and my weapon is ...... then comply with his request.

The worst case I heard of in 30 years of LE experience is a green recruit working with a training officer stopping a car for a minor traffic offense. Walking up to the car seeing an uncased shotgun laying on the back seat. Went ballistic when they saw the gun. Person driving the car panicked , sped off and the recruit put a bullet through the back widow of the car and killed the driver
who was only guilty of a misdemeanor. No winners there.

In Wyoming this summer a deputy pulled over someone riding on a motorcycle. Subject was legally carrying openly on his belt. Deputy pulled down on the subject and kept his weapon on the subject until a supervisor arrived and told him the subject was legal and to let him go. Motorcycle rider was not impressed with the deputy and is now suing the Sherriff Dept.

If you are going to carry a legal CW, fine, use your bleeping head, know the law of the jurisdiction you are in and comply with the law. Always tell the officer you are legally armed. They donít know who you are. The life you save may be your own.
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:09   #56
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It's just so damn much easier to inform.
Yeah, right. Last August I got stopped at a motorcycle road block. When the State Trooper asked for my papers I told her I had a full carrry permit and had a pistol on my belt. I found myself grabbed by the hair, face planted into the pavement, and cuffed. All this in front of my 11 year old son.

New York State does not require a permit holder to inform. I learned my lesson, and have kept my mouth shut since then.
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:30   #57
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Yeah, right. Last August I got stopped at a motorcycle road block. When the State Trooper asked for my papers I told her I had a full carrry permit and had a pistol on my belt. I found myself grabbed by the hair, face planted into the pavement, and cuffed. All this in front of my 11 year old son.

New York State does not require a permit holder to inform. I learned my lesson, and have kept my mouth shut since then.
What happened after you were cuffed?

Did you make a complaint or request a supervisor? If so, what was the outcome? If not, why not?

Did the officer give you any explanation for the treatment you received?

Thanks...
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:32   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clancy View Post
Yeah, right. Last August I got stopped at a motorcycle road block. When the State Trooper asked for my papers I told her I had a full carrry permit and had a pistol on my belt. I found myself grabbed by the hair, face planted into the pavement, and cuffed. All this in front of my 11 year old son.

New York State does not require a permit holder to inform. I learned my lesson, and have kept my mouth shut since then.
...and then what happened?
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:41   #59
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Yeah, right. Last August I got stopped at a motorcycle road block. When the State Trooper asked for my papers I told her I had a full carrry permit and had a pistol on my belt. I found myself grabbed by the hair, face planted into the pavement, and cuffed. All this in front of my 11 year old son.

New York State does not require a permit holder to inform. I learned my lesson, and have kept my mouth shut since then.

I can't help but notice this is at least the second instance of police misconduct you've talked about.

A MAJORITY of folks go an entire lifetime without witnessing any sort of misconduct on the part of LE, yet you have two.


Like Rabbi stated: and then what happened?

What state?
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:46   #60
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I can't help but notice this is at least the second instance of police misconduct you've talked about.

A MAJORITY of folks go an entire lifetime without witnessing any sort of misconduct on the part of LE, yet you have two.


Like Rabbi stated: and then what happened?

What state?
They all broke out into spontaneous song:


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