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Old 02-26-2013, 06:48   #26
hotrodcummins12v
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I'm not an LEO. I have been pulled over maybe once while CCW and once through a checkpoint. I didn't notify the officers either time as I'm not required to here in PA. I think it makes the stop go a little quicker. Also (though extremely rare) there are impersonations and I don't want to give a BG the upper hand in that situation. But in reality, you should be able to sense if something isn't right. I choose not to mention it because the reason for CCW is so that NO ONE knows its there. I keep my info in the visor so its a short reach and there is no revealing mishaps. But I do have a few nonverbal warnings on the back window such as NRA, NAHC, AND Wilson Combat stickers. If you fail to notice that and ask, I won't tell.

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:56   #27
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Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
If I made a traffic stop, and while I was talking to the driver I saw he had a gun, and he hadn't notified me (as required by law), I'd probably screw a gun in his ear too.

The way I see it, there's really no good reason not to tell a cop, who stopped you for breaking a law (albeit a small one), that you've got a gun on you, unless you're up to no good. If you're up to no good, and you've got a gun on you, you can expect to have my gun screwed in your ear.

I'd rather get the jump on someone, and have to dust them them off later with a sincere apology, than let a potential BG with a gun get the jump on me. I like going home to my family at night.

Does that make me a bad guy?
IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you. I've pulled people over who had guns they didn't tell me about, and I've also had people pull up to the highway checkpoint I was working at while they were carrying, and I've NEVER screwed my gun in anyone's ear simply for being armed, even if they didn't tell me.

In those situtations, sometimes I'll unsnap the holster, other times I'll do a one-hand draw and have my pistol out, but pointing a deadly weapon at someone without any articulable facts other than "he was armed" is reckless. How's it going to look if you are aimed in at his head and have an ND? That's going to go AWESOME for you in court...

Lawyer: Was the subject threatening you before you killed him?

You: Uh, no. But he had a gun!

Lawyer: ...A gun which the subject was carrying legally. So I ask you again if the subject was threatening you, or otherwise manifesting the means, opportunity, and intent to make you or a third party suffer grievous bodily harm or death?

You: Uh... no. But he had a gun! He's supposed to notify me he's carrying!

Lawyer: If it pleases the court, allow me to point out to the court that in exhibit 135a, the crime scene photos indicate that the deceased's CCW permit was found in the glove box. Now officer, is it POSSIBLE that the deceased was retrieving his CCW permit in an attempt to non-verbally notify you he was carrying a gun at the time you shot him? Because officer, you may recall earlier testimony from our expert witness, a CCW instructor, that CCW students are trained to not state verbally that they have a gun as this may alarm the officer, but that it is best to simply hand their CCW permit to an officer along with their license and registration, as this is the manner least likely to panic the officer?

You: Uh, I guess he could have been reaching for his permit.

Lawyer: So your testimony is that you shot and killed the subject while he was attempting to both follow your orders AND comply with state law?


Good luck with that.

I would suggest that if you don't like spending the next 25 to life in solitary (because they usually have to put cops in solitary, as other prisoners like to beat/stab former cops), I would suggest that you take a hard look at your training. Perhaps unholserting, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("low ready"/"low search" comes to mind), and a forceful command to "freeze or I shoot" would be in order.

Something else to consider: You're in Texas, no? Last I checked, there are alot of Border Patrol, Customs, and ICE agents, not to mention FBI and ATF agents that work the border areas in texas, and as Federal LEOs they have NATIONWIDE concealed carry authority, and State laws regaring CCW notification etc DO NOT APPLY. That means they have NO DUTY to inform you they're carrying. Personally, if you pulled that crap with me and screwed a gun in my ear while I was "carrying on my creds", I'd call up my chief to tell him what happened. He'd then have a little chat with your chief (I'm sure the topic of federal supplemental and matching funds for local LE would come up, and how percarious the current budget situation is). I would imagine that your chief would then want to have a "heart-to-heart" with you about what went down. Would probably end up costing you getting a nastygram put in your personnel file at least.

I'm not saying you shouldn't draw down on someone who obviously is a turd, I'm just saying that "having a gun" alone is no darn good reason to potentially end someone's life. You better have articulable facts. $0.02

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:04   #28
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:00   #29
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Originally Posted by cfrye11 View Post
A week ago I had to call 911 for my 16 month old daughter. While waiting for the ambulance I ran over to unlock the door. I also took off my ccw in holster. I set it on a book shelf. (Only place to put it with out leavong room, i was alone) as I thought at any minute I would be doing CPR .


Once the ambulance arrived they sent me to get a car seat and prepare to get in ambulance. I come back in the room and there is a sheriff standing next to my gun.

He looks at me. Looks at the gun and says aaaaaaaaa... and kinda points.

I said I'm sorry . I carry. I have a permit . He could see it if he wanted And I would put it away of he let me. He said yes put it away and he let me pick it up. He followed me to my bed room and watched me put it on top of my safe.

He never asked for my permit .


I thought this was nice on his part. Dumb on mine for leaving it out. But I really had no choice.

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Wait wait... this is in your own home, presumbly? If so, why the **** were you concerned about what LEO had to say and having a permit?
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:01   #30
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Personally, if you pulled that crap with me and screwed a gun in my ear while I was "carrying on my creds", I'd call up my chief to tell him what happened. He'd then have a little chat with your chief (I'm sure the topic of federal supplemental and matching funds for local LE would come up, and how percarious the current budget situation is).
Wow, you got that much juice that if you tell your chief, and he calls the TX local's chief, the topic of federal funds for local LE will come up and somehow be used as leverage to bully someone into cowering down and bowing to the feds and then result in formal discipline in someone's jacket?

So... you mentioned your "chief"... not SAC... so you are uniformed federal police instead of an 1811 agent? Praytell, which federal police agency has their chief available for you to call from Texas regarding this contact? You must have some juice.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:09   #31
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you. I've pulled people over who had guns they didn't tell me about, and I've also had people pull up to the highway checkpoint I was working at while they were carrying, and I've NEVER screwed my gun in anyone's ear simply for being armed, even if they didn't tell me.

In those situtations, sometimes I'll unsnap the holster, other times I'll do a one-hand draw and have my pistol out, but pointing a deadly weapon at someone without any articulable facts other than "he was armed" is reckless. How's it going to look if you are aimed in at his head and have an ND? That's going to go AWESOME for you in court...

Lawyer: Was the subject threatening you before you killed him?

You: Uh, no. But he had a gun!

Lawyer: ...A gun which the subject was carrying legally. So I ask you again if the subject was threatening you, or otherwise manifesting the means, opportunity, and intent to make you or a third party suffer grievous bodily harm or death?

You: Uh... no. But he had a gun! He's supposed to notify me he's carrying!

Lawyer: If it pleases the court, allow me to point out to the court that in exhibit 135a, the crime scene photos indicate that the deceased's CCW permit was found in the glove box. Now officer, is it POSSIBLE that the deceased was retrieving his CCW permit in an attempt to non-verbally notify you he was carrying a gun at the time you shot him? Because officer, you may recall earlier testimony from our expert witness, a CCW instructor, that CCW students are trained to not state verbally that they have a gun as this may alarm the officer, but that it is best to simply hand their CCW permit to an officer along with their license and registration, as this is the manner least likely to panic the officer?

You: Uh, I guess he could have been reaching for his permit.

Lawyer: So your testimony is that you shot and killed the subject while he was attempting to both follow your orders AND comply with state law?


Good luck with that.

I would suggest that if you don't like spending the next 25 to life in solitary (because they usually have to put cops in solitary, as other prisoners like to beat/stab former cops), I would suggest that you take a hard look at your training. Perhaps unholserting, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("low ready"/"low search" comes to mind), and a forceful command to "freeze or I shoot" would be in order.

I'm not saying you shouldn't draw down on someone who obviously is a turd, I'm just saying that "having a gun" alone is no darn good reason to potentially end someone's life. You better have articulable facts. $0.02
Also, this.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:10   #32
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Wow, you got that much juice that if you tell your chief, and he calls the TX local's chief, the topic of federal funds for local LE will come up and somehow be used as leverage to bully someone into cowering down and bowing to the feds and then result in formal discipline in someone's jacket?

So... you mentioned your "chief"... not SAC... so you are uniformed federal police instead of an 1811 agent? Praytell, which federal police agency has their chief available for you to call from Texas regarding this contact? You must have some juice.
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.

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Old 02-26-2013, 09:23   #33
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you.
Only two people know whether or not that person is intent on harming you. The person with the gun and God.

They don't want to tell you they are armed and you see their gun? Well they get a gun from LE pointed at them. You can sort out the other stuff later.

I guess I know of too many traffic stops going bad in a matter of a split second. Guess that's why we always preach and teach that traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things we do.

Sorry if you disagree.

Fly-since I work where you live I can tell you what will, or should happen, in your scenario. You will/should get a gun from PD pointed at you immediately. You will then be pulled out, disarmed, and handcuffed for the remainder of the stop for officer safety reasons. If you are legally carrying then no charges will come of it. Realize also that you are allowed to carry a loaded weapon inside your car anyhow. Doesn't cover carrying it on you.

My personal behavior from people who have informed me that there are weapons in the car were; asking them to keep it where it is, and not to make any furtive movements while I go back to my car and take care of whatever business I originally intended to deal with, then let them go. Or have them step out of the car, if the gun is somewhere inside the car and they are giving me reason to want to separate them from immediate access, while I go an attend to whatever business I originally intended to deal with.

Did I mention that I have never given someone a traffic ticket who informed me they were carrying or had weapons in the car? I appreiciate the courtesy of them telling me, because they don't have to here, and want to encourage them doing so the next time they meet me or one of my friends. (Note* realize that is if I have merelly stopped them for a traffic reason and not some other investigation).
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:34   #34
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.
I find this entire scenario reeks of BS. I arrested a DEA agent for beating up his girlfriend and possessing a firearm while intoxicated, and his gun was seized. If some Fed supervisor came down and "ripped into" anybody and demanded anything, he would go right into a cell too. I don't work for the Feds nor do I care what they like or demand.

For the record my brother is a Fed and I have worked woth them in the past.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:47   #35
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Guys, thanks for all the responses so far. I'd much rather go straight to you guys to get real world answers, then just posting somewhere like GNG (snicker) and getting a bunch of random BS from people who aren't LE.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:07   #36
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LEO's aren't anti-gun, they just like a head's up when one is in play.
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:11   #37
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In KS, you have to declare your carry firearm (with a vaild permit) only after a LEO asks about it. Otherwise, you are encouraged to declare.

To the OP, first response: I would probably screw a gun to his ear, too. If you don't have the courtesy to tell me there is a firearm where you can reach, I'm not going to be courteous enough to ask questions before placing myself ina tactically advantageous position.

Second response: I have had many CCx holders declare they were carrying. One night, I stopped four vehicles in a row where the driver was carrying, and declared (one was a SUV with three holders inside). It's not a big deal when it's just a traffic infraction and there's no lethal surprises.

I have handled it several different ways. Some examples:

If I have them get out, I have taken the holstered firearm throughout the encounter. After we are finished with my side of things, I have them stand at the rear of their vehicle and put the holstered firearm in the driver door map pocket, shut the door, and told them not to get in until I was in my patrol vehicle and backing up. I also told them not to reach for the firearm until after their door was shut.

If I have them stay in the vehicle, I have told them to leave their window down and make sure they have both hands where I can see them before I re-approach.

I had one encounter with some guys on quads, one guy told me he had a CCW and where his handgun was. I told him to slowly show me where it was. He started unzippin his Carhartt coat. I stopped him, patted him down from the outside, verified there were no weapons he could access without unzipping, and verified where his declared firearm was, and told him not to unzip his jacket.


I get the majority of the drivers I stop out of their vehicle and always ask if they have any guns or knives on them. This satisfies the CCW requirement and gives me an idea who I'm dealing with. I then pat them down. What amazes me is how many people reach for their weapons while telling you they have them.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:13   #38
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It's just so damn much easier to inform. I've been stopped while carrying twice and had other interactions with both state and county police ranging from police business to a casual conversation. I _always_ tell them I'm licensed, carrying, and where it is. Every time, the response has been a polite OK, or a thank you. No tickets, either.

If I were a cop, I'd appreciate the heads up. It's simple courtesy, has very little to do with "rights."
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:16   #39
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I'm not an LEO. I have been pulled over maybe once while CCW and once through a checkpoint. I didn't notify the officers either time as I'm not required to here in PA. I think it makes the stop go a little quicker. Also (though extremely rare) there are impersonations and I don't want to give a BG the upper hand in that situation. But in reality, you should be able to sense if something isn't right. I choose not to mention it because the reason for CCW is so that NO ONE knows its there. I keep my info in the visor so its a short reach and there is no revealing mishaps. But I do have a few nonverbal warnings on the back window such as NRA, NAHC, AND Wilson Combat stickers. If you fail to notice that and ask, I won't tell.

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You do not disclose your CCW status to a Police Officer but have your car full of "I own guns" stickers, and somehow think that "concealed is concealed" still applies?
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:16   #40
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What amazes me is how many people reach for their weapons while telling you they have them.
From what I hear, a lot of CCW instructors will tell people to hand you their permit rather than talk about having it and where the pistol is located. There is some biomechanical mumbo jumbo about how the brain wants to take your hands to a place on the body it is thinking about.

Probably explains why I'm caught scratching my balls at home a lot
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:17   #41
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Curious:

Do all states require a fingerprint and FBI background check for CCW? If so are not those folks least likely to be criminals?
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:18   #42
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If I were a cop, I'd appreciate the heads up. It's simple courtesy, has very little to do with "rights."
Sure, but if you're concerned about being kind to your fellow man you have little ability to thump your chest about some perceived deprivation of your rights.

I've been stopped once while CCW out of state (I live in Ilinois but have an out-of-state non-resident permit). I think it was an Indiana or Kentucky state trooper. Not sure which. But I gave the trooper the heads up. He asked where I had it and just said "leave it there."

My brother, who was sworn LE from isn't any longer, got stopped in Mississippi and got the "I won't touch mine if you don't touch yours" response when he declared.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:19   #43
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Curious:

Do all states require a fingerprint and FBI background check for CCW? If so are not those folks least likely to be criminals?
That doesn't matter. Just because you were a law abiding citizen one day doesn't mean you're quite as upstanding the next.

There's a guy in my jurisdiction who was just sentenced to probation on a felony DUI but it was common knowledge he was legally purchasing firearms and funneling them to a local gang. But nobody would dime him out..... cause he was scoring them guns.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:22   #44
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I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
Our recently retired state police area commander is against citizen CCW. I belong to a service organization with another long retired state police commander and the local city police chief. Both have mentioned that to me and it surprised me. Every other cop I've known or dealt with in my area is very much pro-carry.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:52   #45
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You do not disclose your CCW status to a Police Officer but have your car full of "I own guns" stickers, and somehow think that "concealed is concealed" still applies?
Just because I own them doesn't mean I'm carrying one

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:00   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrodcummins12v View Post
Just because I own them doesn't mean I'm carrying one

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But it makes the assumption far more powerful, for cops and civilians alike. It takes half the surprise off.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:00   #47
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Those of you who are 100% opposed to the thought that the officer would draw upon seeing the undisclosed firearm, particularly those of you who are police officers, should read the latest Force Science Institute bulletin. It came out yesterday and should hit the archives on their website if you are not a subscriber (you should be if you are not).

It specifically detailed officer positioning on traffic stops and what positions are most survivable when the driver suddenly produces a gun. They proved, yet again, that action always beats reaction and that the "suspect" was almost always able to produce the gun and fire a shot before the officer would be able to react if they had their gun out and trained on the person. That should tell you something.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:05   #48
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I can understand why an officer would pull his gun and point it at the suspect in the ablove situation, and I can also understand why an officer would not. I would suggest that in most jurisdictions an officer would be more than justified to point is gun at the suspect and that in most jurisdictions if force was used in a case such as this, it would be a tragedy but it most likely would not end up being a criminal matter. Police even shoot unarmed people and it ends up being justified.

I am also a firm believer that many/most/nearly all good officers develop some instincts that they may not be able to always verbalize. It may be sub-conscious thoughts that officers have based on verbal, non-verbal, visual, physical cues, etc. but that may be best left for another thread. Based on that, I would be extremely reluctant to criticize an officer who did elect to draw and point his gun and I would be extremely reluctant to criticize and officer who did not elect to draw and point his gun at a driver who inadvertently allowed their gun to show.

An officer's experience and training need to be considered along with other factors such as the frequency of officers encountering gun carriers who are legal and who are not. Different juridictions have different ratios of people carrying legitimately versus carrying illegally and this may even be unique from one neighborhood to another. I realize that this is not answering the question but my opinion is that in this case either answer is correct.

I have said it here before. The driver does not know that which the officer may. The driver may think it is a routine traffic stop but the officer may be looking at the car as a potential vehicle used in a crime. Because of that I believe that whether or not required, the driver notifying the officer he is armed has far more benefits for far more drivers than it has detrimental consequences.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:56   #49
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Originally Posted by PuroMexicano View Post
But it makes the assumption far more powerful, for cops and civilians alike. It takes half the surprise off.
Yes I admit. I own guns and want the world to know I'm for right wing. Nothing wrong with that. It might even prevent a situation while I'm in the vehicle, especially when I'm not carrying to and from work where weapons are prohibited on property. In reality, many people own guns and don't carry for protection. So the stickers don't mean anything other than that I support the 2nd amendment. But when I'm in a bank, store, or anywhere, I still retain that element of surprise.

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:12   #50
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Do almost all states allow transporting your gun in your car? Even if not CCW?
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