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Old 03-03-2013, 20:25   #201
eyelikeglasses
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
As many others have pointed out- you just won't see a shotgun in professional application for anything other than breaching or non-lethal use.

That's a fact, jack.

All the limpstroking in the world over "grandpa's scattergun" or "devastating superiority" is not going to overcome the limitations of the platform.

If an 18-series-dude carried an "FN 12 ga" (which would be odd) then I'd say he's quite lucky he didn't find himself in a situation that exceeded the capabilities of his chosen weapon.
13 series here. The only cannon I ever fired downrange was a Mossberg.
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Old 03-03-2013, 20:50   #202
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"No professional application"... ok, that's funny.
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Old 03-03-2013, 22:30   #203
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
"No professional application"... ok, that's funny.
+1! I can think of at least 10 professional applications and I gave it 5 seconds to think...

let me distill this for the mall ninjas and virtual reality warriors.

I own guns in these calibers:

9mm, 40 sw, 45 LC, 45 ACP
22lr, .223, 7mm mag, 7.62X39, .308


and 12 guage in 4 way different shotguns. The bottom line is if necessary, I'd pick one one my concealed carried pistols and two of my 12 guage shotguns if I only got to keep three guns...

one gun... my 11-87... (two barrels)

...don't confuse offense with defense... really on defense, in my 75yd and under world, is anything better than a good shotgun?

and don't confuse in the SHTF scenario, that a gun can bring protein/dinner along with protection... again none better than a 12g.

For offense I want multiple drones, rpgs, machine guns etc... you get idea taking means working your way in... yes, if I want to start a war I'd go rifle... with a lot of other guys with rifles.

But standing as a "normal" guy with a suburban "castle" to protect hand me a 12 guage and I'm OK
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Old 03-03-2013, 22:55   #204
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Is this thread meant to be a joke?
...are we talking "Internet logic" or the real world?

I'll take a Benelli M4 topped with an Aimpoint T1 and 2 deep pockets of 00 buck and sabot slugs for any defensive scenario.

With a medium choke you will consistently ding steel silhouettes at 80 yards with the buckshot.
Spend more than 200.00 for your shotgun, might change your opinion.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:58   #205
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I have no doubt a SG can do anything I need from a longarm out to realistic combat distances and as a do-it-all gun it's about the best there is. Add an extra barrel and the SG is just as relevant a tool as it was 200+ years ago for folks who could only afford one gun.
It may not be the best at every role, esp within the parameters of military use, but between the vast selection of ammo from dust shot to game loads for duck to Brenneke KO's that hold into 4"/5 shots 100yrds.....it's hard to knock the scattergun.

Besides, it's got good spread!!!
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:39   #206
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Besides, it's got good spread!!!
General Firearms Forum

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Old 03-06-2013, 13:38   #207
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That's the thing about public perception... they see you with a shotgun they figure you basically can't miss so they are going to get shot... and so they tend to shy away.
Everybody everywhere seems to recognize the boom-stick!
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Old 03-06-2013, 14:32   #208
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"No professional application"... ok, that's funny.
Yep, agreed.

It's still a bit dismaying how many folks who are new to shotguns, or who haven't done any training or practice with them of more than a cursory level, are sometimes taken aback and shocked when they experience missing a "threat target" on the range, with all their shots, with whatever type of buckshot is being used. (Dismaying, but unsurprising, if they only shoot them when required to do so for quals.)

It's amazing what a little training can do for someone interested in accurately & effectively using a shotgun (or rifle), in as little as 8 hours (and obviously in up to 40 hours).

The hunter & sporting clays folks understandably have less troubles, for the most part.

It's one of those instances where someone may attempt to engage threat targets with buckshot at 5-10 yds, or at 25-35 yds with slugs, and after they promptly miss with all shots they turn and ask you (instructor) how they could have possibly missed that many times ... and you bite your tongue, not saying that however they did it, they really made it look easy.
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Old 03-06-2013, 14:55   #209
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Funny story:

Friend gets a 12 ga pump with a simple bead front sight... several of us go to the range... no one can hit the target at 25 yards with slugs... friend hands the gun and says; See if you can hit anything with this. First shot boom dead center. Surprised the hell out of everyone. They all wanted to know "how". I said that all i did was line up the front sight with the center of the receiver and the center of the target and pull the trigger.
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Old 03-06-2013, 20:02   #210
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All the above concerning rifles over SGs is why I didn't go too heavy into a SG. I use mine for hallway clearing; or, if on the road or confronted in my yard by more than one trouble maker, I don't have to worry as much with collateral damage to homes as with say a 7.62/39 out of an AK or SKS.
On the road if I break down somewhere unsavory or along an interstate in a downpour, my wife can easily cover me with a light manuverable attention getter.

"S_____!!! She's got a 12 gage! Hey, it's ok lady!!! Wee's just a-leavin!!"

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Old 03-06-2013, 21:27   #211
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Is that a tactical shotgun in your pocket? Or are you just happy to see me?
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Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

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AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

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Old 03-06-2013, 21:38   #212
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Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?

Was this odd question asked in the Tactical Shotgun Forum??
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Old 03-06-2013, 21:59   #213
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... They all wanted to know "how". I said that all i did was line up the front sight with the center of the receiver and the center of the target and pull the trigger.
Aiming. Imagine that!?!

I remember when I was a new guy and had to go through my first shotgun qual.

After the buckshot stages were done they gave me 2 rifled slugs and told me I had to hit the silhouette somewhere in the scored area with both of them from 50 yds. It wasn't considered an out-of-the-ordinary skill level back then, and that was using the older 870's with the bead mounted directly on top of the barrel (instead of being elevated on a pedestal).

Nowadays I see cops who appear a bit intimidated when asked to get 70% of a handful of slugs on a target while shooting from 35 yds.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:27   #214
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Nowadays I see cops who appear a bit intimidated when asked to get 70% of a handful of slugs on a target while shooting from 35 yds.
...and the probably "make" about 50% "on target" with more than half of those being superficial wounds outside of both the primary and secondary lethal zones.

As you pointed out though, 40 hours and a few thousand repetitions is a quick cure for that.

...then watch the skill set diminish over time.

...then add real-world-stress and watch the hit percentage go *below* the 50% on target that they started with.

Meanwhile, an officer trained in the basics of SRM with a carbine can put nearly 100% of his rounds through the primary lethal zone with two feet firmly planted... and a bit less under stress.

The pump shotgun is not dead for breaching and non-lethal application, but it remains the most manipulation intensive weapon you can field, and the one that requires the most training to reach a basic level of effectiveness.
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Old 03-07-2013, 19:52   #215
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Aiming. Imagine that!?!

I remember when I was a new guy and had to go through my first shotgun qual.

After the buckshot stages were done they gave me 2 rifled slugs and told me I had to hit the silhouette somewhere in the scored area with both of them from 50 yds. It wasn't considered an out-of-the-ordinary skill level back then, and that was using the older 870's with the bead mounted directly on top of the barrel (instead of being elevated on a pedestal).
KY DOC instructors and CERT has to hit 5/7 from 50, annually.
KY CERT is well versed in SG's, it's the primary weapon. Although there will always be a .223 somewhere around.
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Old 03-07-2013, 20:52   #216
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Obsolete? No. Limited uses? Yeah.
This. At 100 yards or less, with slugs, it has the potential to be just as accurate and lethal as a rifle bullet.

Inside of 45 yards, you've got a hell of a manstopper with the right buckshot. I don't have a HD shotgun, but it will probably be the next gun I get.
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:16   #217
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[QUOTE=KalashniKEV;20065003 but it remains the most manipulation intensive weapon you can field, and the one that requires the most training to reach a basic level of effectiveness.[/QUOTE]

Oh boy, statistics

That is kind of like someone going off on "XXX is the leading cause of...."

SOMETHING is ALWAYS going to be "The most....." (whatever) "require "The Most..." or whatever as long as you want to measure things.

Remember too, that you are avoiding the fact that you mil issue M-4,

Has a "giggle switch"

Has a massive supply chain behind it.

Is backed up up by a bunch of other folks, probably including an LMG

Is supported by air power field artillery, armor, and all kinds of goodies.

As an individual I lack those amenities and would simply like to eliminate a thread as efficiently as possible, preferably with one shot and control my immediate environment. I may, or may not, chose a shotgun, but it is still a viable choice.

I am so surprised that so many have been purchased by the military since the sandbox follies started, I would think they would have known it has become obsolete. I guess you didn't give them the word
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Old 03-07-2013, 23:18   #218
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Oh boy, statistics

That is kind of like someone going off on "XXX is the leading cause of...."

SOMETHING is ALWAYS going to be "The most....." (whatever) "require "The Most..." or whatever as long as you want to measure things.

Remember too, that you are avoiding the fact that you mil issue M-4,

Has a "giggle switch"

Has a massive supply chain behind it.

Is backed up up by a bunch of other folks, probably including an LMG

Is supported by air power field artillery, armor, and all kinds of goodies.

As an individual I lack those amenities and would simply like to eliminate a thread as efficiently as possible, preferably with one shot and control my immediate environment. I may, or may not, chose a shotgun, but it is still a viable choice.

I am so surprised that so many have been purchased by the military since the sandbox follies started, I would think they would have known it has become obsolete. I guess you didn't give them the word

I love that your "facts" have so little to do with the OP, or his argument, yet are presented like they're somehow deciding factors.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:56   #219
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I love that your "facts" have so little to do with the OP, or his argument, yet are presented like they're somehow deciding factors.
I know... this is really weird actually...

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Remember too, that you are avoiding the fact that you mil issue M-4,

Has a "giggle switch"
WTF is a "giggle switch?"


You talk like a dirtshooter.

FA is overrated in it's usefulness by those who are unacquainted. Burst is more so...

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Has a massive supply chain behind it.
Why is this relevant? I'm going to throw an extractor every 8,000 rounds and you are going to have to replace a shotgun's extractor every... I don't even know... who cares??

Why is this relevant?



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Is backed up up by a bunch of other folks, probably including an LMG

Is supported by air power field artillery, armor, and all kinds of goodies.
What scenario are we imagining now???

Your home is under attack by some battle-hardened Muj or something?



Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
As an individual I lack those amenities and would simply like to eliminate a thread as efficiently as possible,
I agree- let's eliminate this thread as quickly as possible:

The shotgun is the most manipulation intensive weapon you can field, and the one that requires the most training to reach a basic level of effectiveness.

The strengths of the shotgun- "spread," "man-stopperability," "scary pump noises" are greatly overstated in their effectiveness.

The weaknesses of the shotgun- extremely manipulation intensive manual of arms, limited capacity, long and cumbersome to maneuver, stout recoil, poor ergos and limited ability to mount required accessories, like a light are very real.

Quote:
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I am so surprised that so many have been purchased by the military since the sandbox follies started, I would think they would have known it has become obsolete. I guess you didn't give them the word
Yeah... and what are they used for?

C'mon... I'll give you a minute to think about it. You can even use the Google...

Breaching and non-lethal application.

Or, in all honesty, most just stay in the rack or get left in the truck.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:24   #220
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I know lots of guys will wade through the muck with their Benelli or Wingmaster shotguns and bring ducks home for dinner.

But I'm talking about the shorter ones, the 18-inch-ish configuration ones with the purpose of using it for police work, "SHTF" or whatever, essentially using it for the purposes one would use a carbine.

While watching an episode of Rescue 911 (Bonus points if you remember when that show was on the air!) on YouTube, an officer was being shot by an offender at a distance that apparently was out of shotgun range, so after being injured he had to somehow reach for his M14 patrol rifle and fire back.

People have valid criticisms of the shotgun, including:
"It's too heavy!"
"It's too slow to reload"
"It holds too few rounds"
"Its limited in effective distance which puts me at a disadvantage"

All of those are good points. I mean, after all, an AR which holds 30 rounds (or 5 to 10 depending on how horrible your local laws are ) is lighter, quicker handling, and recoils significantly less. It can be reloaded quicker, is more accurate, especialy out to distance, and can be used in versatile conditions.

It seems to be the nail in the coffin of what would be a tactical shotgun. I mean, wouldn't cops or civilians alike want 30 rounds on tap compared to 6 or 7? Faster follow-up shots versus having to pump? Eliminating the jams associated with short stroking the action? Something easier on both the shoulder and the pocketbook (assuming we're talking buckshot and slug prices).

Surely somebody will stick up for the tactical shotgun? I voted with my money, with a top of the line 870 Police Magnum. Though 7.62x39 semi-automatic rifles that hang in the safe have many of the same positive attributes.

Despite the demerits against the shotgun, I can't help but grab it and a pocket full of buckshot and slugs when I head out into the woods.

But I see less and less people who want a shotgun and make a b-line for some kind of a carbine in its place, or keep the 12 gauge for birds or maybe a slug barrel for deer in wooded areas.

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
Far from obsolete...out to 50 yards with 00 Buck, out to 100 yards with slugs...past that rifle. I haven't seen too many people survive close range shootings with 00 Buck from a 12G.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:32   #221
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I love that your "facts" have so little to do with the OP, or his argument, yet are presented like they're somehow deciding factors.



Hey, countrygun knows everything


........just ask him!
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:49   #222
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Far from obsolete...
Please just stop saying "obsolete."
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:00   #223
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The AR is the perfect weapon for every scenario encountered by the high speed low drag operator or hapless homeowner. It will even cook you breakfast in the morning.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:02   #224
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I'm not quite getting some of the emotion being exhibited on this forum.

Heck -- I still use a VCR from time to time.


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Old 03-08-2013, 09:22   #225
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I'm not quite getting some of the emotion being exhibited on this forum.

Heck -- I still use a VCR from time to time.


.
Well then you're GTG- a Violent Carbine Response is the appropriate answer to most engagements.

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