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Old 03-01-2013, 22:14   #161
AK_Stick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
1) if I had 8 rounds in my 12 gauge with some good #4 shot (or #1 personally) would I feel more comfortable with 8 one shot stops? If all center mass hits.
How many would argue that it takes (normally) 3-4 hits with a .223 to stop the BG. Wouldn't that make it close to even on the high capacity thing? I'm no expert, just going by some things I've been told, and it's just a question. Take it easy on me.

I've not seen hundreds of people shot, but of the few that I've seen, and the bodies I saw, very few took more than 1-2 hits COM before they expired.



5.56, especially at ranges of under 150 yds, is decidedly lethal. You hit a guy in the chest, he's going down, and he's going to need some immediate medical attention if he wants to live.




You will ofcourse, find some instances of guys soaking up rounds and keeping fighting. But that happens with lots of calibers, including the mighty 12 gauge.
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Old 03-02-2013, 00:08   #162
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Nothing says "Prepare to be boarded" better in my opinion
Never did get an argument with that black hole of death staring at whomever it was pointed against.

I am convinced it's not just the cost, but the intimidation factor too, that keeps them on boarding party duty. Foreigners in particular get bug eyed by the 12ga. Must not see many shotguns as "weapons."
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Old 03-02-2013, 00:25   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post



You will ofcourse, find some instances of guys soaking up rounds and keeping fighting. But that happens with lots of calibers, including the mighty 12 gauge.
And THOSE are the ones that get reported.

Its because its so rare.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:14   #164
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I'm a little late to the party, but I'm here to add a "professional" perspective that a few armchair warriors aren't fully grasping.

The 18" shotgun is a viable and very effective weapon system. It is in use by most if not all maritime security and military forces world wide. LE uses it not just in patrol vehicles and sert breaching and clearing operations, but in correctional facilities as well. It is used with both lethal and non lethal munitions to great effect daily by hundreds of people.

Security alert forces on ships use it because it won't over penetrate the bulk heads and works as a great fire suppression tool. MIO (or maritime intervention operations) use the shotgun for boarding, search and seizure missions, again as the shotgun is far superior to a rifle within the skin of a ship.

Shotguns are even used for gate guard duty and are effective up to 25 yards accurately and with very tight groupings.

As far as LE, shotguns are used in perimeter and patrol vehicles often as a shotgun is more effective in an encounter within 25 yards. With modern semi auto shotguns or proper technique with a pump gun, you can keep a steady and constant rate of fire on target long enough to end a threat.

Within corrections the shotgun is also used lethally for escapes and self defense. It also serves a purpose for less than lethal force, but honestly if you are going to go less than lethal, you'd grab a 40 or 37mm.

Would I be comfortable using only a shotgun in a combat situation? Yes, modern buckshot and sabot rounds are extremely effective. Does the military and law enforcement communities use the shotgun for more than breaching and less than lethal? Yep, more than you know.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:45   #165
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I have read each post carefully and watched the YouTube video. Something I keep seeing is the occasional mention of shotguns used in combat from WWI, WWII, the Nam, and the current mess we are facing with the sand folks.
If you used a combat shotgun (not in door busting role), what ranges, loads, situations? How did it function in actual combat?

I personally have a 12 Ga hammerless side by side Coach Gun. I know. Not enough shots and slow to reload. It is also light, 36" long, (read that as HIGHLY manuverable in my small roomed house and narrow hallway, easy for my petite wife to handle/discharge), and offers two fast manshreading rounds w/o reloading.

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Old 03-02-2013, 10:28   #166
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The 12 ga.shotgun is the best choice for home defense. I have three within easy reach, an 870 with 20 inch bbl., a Stoeger sxs , and a Vang Comp 870 with sidesaddle for slugs and butstock holder for buck. I have rubber pellet and slug loads nearby for less lethal, and the Vang is loaded with a turkey load, one short. I am prepared for anything with that setup, from inside the home, no overpenetration, to stepping outside for a slug select out to 150 yards. My M4 is there for major issues, but my shotguns will handle most eventualities. I would never choose a handgun knowing I was going to be in a gunfight, that is a fools choice. I have trained extensively for use of a long gun in close quarters, and I'm comfortable with the choice to pull the trigger to remove anything from the end of the barrel that I don't want on there.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:03   #167
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[QUOTE=ChuteTheMall;20028730]
I have the most fun with my SxS rabbit-eared Cimarron/TTN coachgun shooting cowboy action matches, competing against Winchester/Norinco model 97 pump guns. Quick reloading and quick shooting is stressed in this sport./[QUOTE]

Wow I wish I could find a Cimarron/TTN.

Steve
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:20   #168
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A 18" 12ga pump shotgun will answer nearly all realistic home defense issues pretty well. Its only when people start talking about fringe hollywood movie ideas of citizens combat does the shotgun begin to fall short. I dont think the shotgun will ever be obsolete in joe citizen applications.
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Old 03-02-2013, 15:51   #169
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Blaze away????

What are you some dizzy headed lib that rants about things turning into "the Wild West" or "Macho Men" out "Packing Heat?

Slap yourself.
I am definitely NOT a lib, unless you mean libertarian. But I do know that there are very many people who own "defense rifles" who are total ****ing dip ****s. Purchasing a gun doesn't automatically make someone more responsible or intelligent.
There are guys that WILL just "blaze away" because they don't practice, and don't have a clue, or just don't care about safe and responsible gun ownership. They bought an AK or an AR because they thought they "look badass" These are usually the same type of guys who haul a bunch of junk appliances out to BLM land, shoot it up, and leave it. And there are plenty of those around where I live.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have guns, I'm just saying I don't want some idiot in the house next door emptying a 30 rd mag from an AK in the general direction of an intruder. Bullets penetrate walls, and I have kids. I would prefer they use an appropriate weapon for the job.

Slap yourself.

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Old 03-02-2013, 16:01   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I don't know. A shotgun isn't a very intimidating weapon compared to putting a 5 inch round across the bow.
Good point
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:52   #171
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Is it the longarm of choice for infantry or other warfighters? Of course not. Is it the most devastating and reliable weapon an ordinary guy can buy for a reasonable price that will handle 99.99% of home defense needs? You bet your ass. This infatuation with ARs and AKs, which i love, is just a little unrealistic. An 870 or 500 with 5 or 6 00 bucks will handle any issue the vast majority of us will ever face.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:00   #172
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Does an AR have?


Non-lethal rounds
Breaching rounds
Slugs
6-14, .25-.35 caliber projectiles with one pull of a trigger
sabot rounds--.45-.50 caliber
duplex loads of a slug and buck

or how about three 60 caliber projectiles?!!
General Firearms Forum

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Old 03-02-2013, 18:14   #173
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
The issue I think we're getting into here, is the key word "tactical" in "tactical shotgun".


When guys like Kev, Murphy, myself, AirbornInfantry, etc talk about "tactical" we're generally talking about people who use the gun with the intent to kill someone. NOT guys hiding in the bedroom with a shotgun trained on the door waiting for the police to show up.

From this, I will also exclude, the non SWAT/CERT/whatever police use, as their use of a firearm, is also largely defensive, much like that of a civilian.

In the .mil/tactical useage, the shotgun has become the tertiary choice for the majority of users. Behind both the rifle, and the pistol.

There are some niche roles where it is still a front line choice, but it truly has become a niche weapon because it has some significant limitations, and what few advantages it does offer, are not enough to offset its drawbacks.

From a tactical standpoint, again, taking the weapon and going out looking for trouble, it has

A.) Very limited ammo capacity
B.) Very limited scope of engagement
C.) Longer reload time
D.) Possibility of having to perform a Select a XXX drill if you find yourself outside the engagement envelope of the round you have chambered/in the tube
E.) Relegated to headshot/hipshots against armored opponents
F.) Doesn't share ammo commonality with other team members
G.) Its lack of precision can make shots on partial obscured targets either impossible, or potentially harmful to captives/bystanders/others.


Its advantages

A.) Versatility in ammo choices/selection
B.) Ability to fire LL gives you a escalation of force not provide by most other platforms

In the end, you can argue till you're blue in the face if you don't agree with the facts I've posted, but the proof really is in the numbers. "Tactical Shotguns" are, in ever increasing numbers being relegated to the roles of LL employment, and Breaching duty. Aside from those roles, and some some niche duty, with units like boarding duties and, and prisoner control and similar, you just don't see them anymore.

With the new 40mm/37mm launchers, we're even seeing a move away from the shotgun in the LL platform, and dynamic entry/explosive entry is rapidly derringer those markets as well.

Also, you have to look no further than the Hollywood shoot out, to see why "Tactical Shotguns" are being replaced.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now on the civilian side/non "tactical" LEO/home defense etc

Its doing very well, and will never be replaced. Many people rely upon their shotguns to do "dual" duty of putting food on the table, and defending their homes from intruders/pets.

And in that role, its versatility is unmatched. And furthermore the majority of its downsides are dependent upon situations that are not realistically common enough to warrant replacement as a self defense weapon.

Low capacity, isn't such an issue when you're not going out looking for a fight.

Being that most users are not likely to leave the house with the weapon, they are unlikely to suddenly find themselves outside the range/envelope of the capability of their weapon.

Since most home invaders, in non drug related break ins, are not wearing body armor, its limitations against a armored opponent are not a realistic drawback.

Chances of having to make a shot around a hostage, for your average home owner, are slim, so its lack of precision is less of an issue, though it does bring into question what happens if/when you miss.

And its large ammo selection capability make it a good choice in a rural setting, as its capable of dealing with almost any pest you're likely to encounter from rats/racoons/badgers with bird shot, to animals like polar and brown bears with slugs.




I think alot of the arguing/bickering has been because people have been reading it as "are shotguns out dated" and then jumping in to see guys like Kev saying, yep, they're being replaced/relegated to niche duty, and getting fired up, before they understand just what he's saying.
AK Stick:

That's it. The shotgun is the premier home defense weapon. I'm not a young badass infantryman, just an old Dad and husband looking to defend my family. for my purposes a 12 guage pump is the best option. My SKS and any other 7.62 is great too, but 00 buck rocks.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:18   #174
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My 18 inch tactical combat shotgun is NOT obsolete.

General Firearms Forum
Perfect and affordable.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:30   #175
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^^ That's what works for me. I've never been in combat and I'm not a tactical kind of guy but for HD that simple short bbl shotgun is just fine. tom.
You and I are in the same boat, brother. I'm not a "professional" and don't pretend to be.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:18   #176
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Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
I have read each post carefully and watched the YouTube video. Something I keep seeing is the occasional mention of shotguns used in combat from WWI, WWII, the Nam, and the current mess we are facing with the sand folks.
If you used a combat shotgun (not in door busting role), what ranges, loads, situations? How did it function in actual combat?

I personally have a 12 Ga hammerless side by side Coach Gun. I know. Not enough shots and slow to reload. It is also light, 36" long, (read that as HIGHLY manuverable in my small roomed house and narrow hallway, easy for my petite wife to handle/discharge), and offers two fast manshreading rounds w/o reloading.

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Like your attitude. The South HAS risen again!
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:21   #177
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Originally Posted by chpullen View Post
Like your attitude. The South HAS risen again!
Jeb Stuart and a few others left a shotgun legacy in some places.

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Old 03-02-2013, 19:22   #178
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"When Zombies attack I call shotgun"

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Old 03-02-2013, 19:26   #179
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Jeb Stuart and a few others left a shotgun legacy in some places.

Lemat for the win.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:46   #180
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Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
You should re-read my post. According to the situation.
Are you one of those that think one weapon can do it all?
So like Call of Duty you're going to press a button and out-pops-an AR/Shotgun/Pistol once you dispatch the intruder in your house, start to dial 911, and his driver starts putting rounds through your front window?

Was it shotgun for the lawn, or rifle? I don't want to scroll up.

You've got to pick one and roll with it based on where you live and how you plan to respond to different threats.

For me?

Glock 17 with a tac light... I shoot that **** at everything.

/franksredhot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boats View Post
Foreigners in particular get bug eyed by the 12ga. Must not see many shotguns as "weapons."
It's because they have hunted before and they know what a shotgun can do. Lots of other countries don't allow the ownership of military weapons and if they haven't served a term of conscription they usually only have experience with Chinese/Turkish/Russian shotguns that are all over the world- and have probably ruined some small game by using an improper load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
If you used a combat shotgun (not in door busting role), what ranges, loads, situations? How did it function in actual combat?
It would be extremely foolhardy to patrol with a shotgun in either urban terrain or in the great wide open because in either place you could easily be engaged outside of the shotgun's envelope.

Shotguns were fielded for breaching and non-lethal purposes... but it's more effective to breach with explosives or a hooley, and the whole "non-lethal craze" was way overblown and was mostly just a gimmick to make a few guys rich, IMO.

I carried my shotty in the turret as just-another-tool for EOF, though elaborate escalation of force schemes brief better than they work in real life. Birdshot to the windshield? Buck for whatever? Green lasers? Flash Bangs? 30-Min Chem Lights? VS-17 pieces made into little flags? Tac Lights? Air Horns? Warning shots?

I was almost always able to control the space around my truck just by moving my hand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by floorpoor
There are guys that WILL just "blaze away" because they don't practice, and don't have a clue, or just don't care about safe and responsible gun ownership.
Interesting theory... can you show me when that has ever happened?

I suppose you also think that if CCW were allowed in the Aurora movie theater that it would have turned in to the "Wild West?"
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