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Old 03-02-2013, 18:18   #176
chpullen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
I have read each post carefully and watched the YouTube video. Something I keep seeing is the occasional mention of shotguns used in combat from WWI, WWII, the Nam, and the current mess we are facing with the sand folks.
If you used a combat shotgun (not in door busting role), what ranges, loads, situations? How did it function in actual combat?

I personally have a 12 Ga hammerless side by side Coach Gun. I know. Not enough shots and slow to reload. It is also light, 36" long, (read that as HIGHLY manuverable in my small roomed house and narrow hallway, easy for my petite wife to handle/discharge), and offers two fast manshreading rounds w/o reloading.

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Old 03-02-2013, 18:21   #177
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Like your attitude. The South HAS risen again!
Jeb Stuart and a few others left a shotgun legacy in some places.

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Old 03-02-2013, 18:22   #178
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"When Zombies attack I call shotgun"

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Old 03-02-2013, 18:26   #179
chpullen
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Jeb Stuart and a few others left a shotgun legacy in some places.

Lemat for the win.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:46   #180
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Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
You should re-read my post. According to the situation.
Are you one of those that think one weapon can do it all?
So like Call of Duty you're going to press a button and out-pops-an AR/Shotgun/Pistol once you dispatch the intruder in your house, start to dial 911, and his driver starts putting rounds through your front window?

Was it shotgun for the lawn, or rifle? I don't want to scroll up.

You've got to pick one and roll with it based on where you live and how you plan to respond to different threats.

For me?

Glock 17 with a tac light... I shoot that **** at everything.

/franksredhot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boats View Post
Foreigners in particular get bug eyed by the 12ga. Must not see many shotguns as "weapons."
It's because they have hunted before and they know what a shotgun can do. Lots of other countries don't allow the ownership of military weapons and if they haven't served a term of conscription they usually only have experience with Chinese/Turkish/Russian shotguns that are all over the world- and have probably ruined some small game by using an improper load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
If you used a combat shotgun (not in door busting role), what ranges, loads, situations? How did it function in actual combat?
It would be extremely foolhardy to patrol with a shotgun in either urban terrain or in the great wide open because in either place you could easily be engaged outside of the shotgun's envelope.

Shotguns were fielded for breaching and non-lethal purposes... but it's more effective to breach with explosives or a hooley, and the whole "non-lethal craze" was way overblown and was mostly just a gimmick to make a few guys rich, IMO.

I carried my shotty in the turret as just-another-tool for EOF, though elaborate escalation of force schemes brief better than they work in real life. Birdshot to the windshield? Buck for whatever? Green lasers? Flash Bangs? 30-Min Chem Lights? VS-17 pieces made into little flags? Tac Lights? Air Horns? Warning shots?

I was almost always able to control the space around my truck just by moving my hand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by floorpoor
There are guys that WILL just "blaze away" because they don't practice, and don't have a clue, or just don't care about safe and responsible gun ownership.
Interesting theory... can you show me when that has ever happened?

I suppose you also think that if CCW were allowed in the Aurora movie theater that it would have turned in to the "Wild West?"
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:03   #181
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
So like Call of Duty you're going to press a button and out-pops-an AR/Shotgun/Pistol once you dispatch the intruder in your house, start to dial 911, and his driver starts putting rounds through your front window?

Was it shotgun for the lawn, or rifle? I don't want to scroll up.

You've got to pick one and roll with it based on where you live and how you plan to respond to different threats.

For me?

Glock 17 with a tac light... I shoot that **** at everything.

/franksredhot
Oh, a call of duty reference. Now I understand your way of thinking a little more. I don't play it, but my two oldest boys do.
That would explain a lot about some of the things you say.
Like, you would use a 9mm pistol for everything. Good luck with that against a well-trained determined individual with a rifle.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:29   #182
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A loaded shotgun is my HD gun for 2 reason 1: It has been reliable for 2000+ rounds. 2. None of my possible engagements are longer than 25 yards. Longer than that range I'd no longer be dealing with home invaders.
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Old 03-03-2013, 05:53   #183
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Oh, a call of duty reference. Now I understand your way of thinking a little more. I don't play it, but my two oldest boys do.
That would explain a lot about some of the things you say.
Like, you would use a 9mm pistol for everything. Good luck with that against a well-trained determined individual with a rifle.
Calm your emotions.

You make the choice ahead of time based on the threats you expect to receive and what you plan to do about them- because you don't have time to make the choice in the moment.

You or the other guy will *need* to have lead on target right around the time you're wondering which line of defense he is standing on the threshold of, and is he going to cross it.

The less choices you make, the better.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:08   #184
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A loaded shotgun is my HD gun for 2 reason 1: It has been reliable for 2000+ rounds. 2. None of my possible engagements are longer than 25 yards. Longer than that range I'd no longer be dealing with home invaders.
Simple, concise, and reasonable. Pretty much says it all.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:12   #185
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For repelling boarders up close and personal in confined spaces I like a shotgun.

Nothing fancy or technical mind you just a 12 ga. with 00 Buck.

His name is "Claymore".........
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:31   #186
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I have something like that in my stable that I use for a travel gun. It breaks down and goes back together in seconds, fits in my luggage so I don't carry around any of those obvious gun totes, nice addition to your pistol when you are on the road.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:14   #187
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The more "Tactical" the accoutrements on a shotgun, the more versatile it becomes. I would define versatile as having both close-range and long-range effectiveness. So, a shotgun, properly deployed, is a devastating weapon out to 15 yards with whatever ammo you use in it (factoring for cylinder or improved-cylinder choke, buck or slug). Outside of 15 yards, if the shotgun has "rifle sights" as opposed to a bead, and you are using slugs, it has extended-range accuracy and lethality far exceeding that of a handgun. So, a shotgun gives you more lethality and accuracy within the same general ranges you would engage a threat with a handgun. Outside of those ranges, a rifle with optics is a superior tool (if you can't identify the threat, why would you shoot it?). The right tool for the right job.

If I can only carry one long gun, though (backed-up by my handgun), it's going to be a Shotgun with both slug and buck ammo. Living where I live, and doing my job, the shotgun is the best tool for the threats I'm likely to face.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:18   #188
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i know people who think its the untimate weapon for all situations. Its not. Anyone who says you can use slugs for long range to make it like a rifle, doesn't shoot slugs much. A shotgun rules for home defense or close quarters but if i could only have one gun, it would be a carbine hands down
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:24   #189
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I had a tactical 870 for years when I was on the job however I sold it after retirement.

I felt I wanted a shotgun that was simple to use for my wife to operate so the double was purchased and is stoked with Low Recoil 00 Buck.

My former patrol AR is my primary long gun for any extended or protracted engagements.
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Last edited by Olde School; 03-07-2013 at 08:36..
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:14   #190
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
The less choices you make, the better.

That's why there is a 60 year old M-500 with an 18" barrel out of the safe each night at the Flipper Estate.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:37   #191
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Lot's off good stuff here!

AK really made a great post about context. As always, for a specific purpose, there is a specific gun. In combat (i.e.: REAL tactical use) can't imagine a shotgun beating a rifle. At best, you will moving from indoors to outdoors. You had better have ~200yd capability (or more).

For HD - I'm not shooting more than 50 feet - EVEN if moving outdoors.

As for the lethality of the AR; As always - it's a gopher bullet, it works as well as a .22lr or .50 Beowulf when it lands on target. If it is off target, well....maybe not. Yes, the original AR was rifled properly and shot by guys who could shoot. And didn't spray and pray.

As we see mentioned, everything worth shooting at a bad guy over penetrates. Never forget that. Box O truth is awesome.

And as always - whatever you shoot best is what is best to shoot.
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Old 03-03-2013, 13:57   #192
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7 rounds of 00 Buck with 9 .32 caliber pellets each.

AR 15, 30 rds, one round at a time.

.....do the math
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Old 03-03-2013, 15:41   #193
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.

thats some of the worst advise ive ever heard.. please dont reproduce hahaha

im just joking around

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Old 03-03-2013, 15:46   #194
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With Seller & Bellot 12g 00 buck you get 12 .33 cal, 54gr, lead balls going about 1100fps with each pull of the trigger.

My folding Mossy 500 will hold 6 in the mag tube. 12 x 6 = 72.

That's 72 bullets with only 6 pulls of the trigger.

At 30 feet i get about a 10 inch group with one round.

I can switch to slugs or "blinding" bird shot at a moments notice... or i can alternate different ammo from the side-saddle or other ammo source without having to remove a magazine.

Now put yourself in a sudden "civil unrest" violent riot situation in the middle of the city with mobs of people violently blocking a intersection that you just found yourself and your family inadvertently trapped in like Reginald Denny. The mob is bent on pulling all of you out of your vehicle and then beating you, robbing you, beating your wife and kids and gang raping your wife and daughters.

If i can't simply hit the zombies with my vehicle and get out of the area, i'll use my 10mm 20 rnd Glock pistol out the window first, then the shotgun, then the carbine as backup and for any more precise work that needs to be done.

Your immediate need is to get out of there and get your family and self to a safe place that you can defend. Your immediate need is not to go toe to toe with the mob in their own neighborhood and try to save the world.
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Old 03-03-2013, 15:48   #195
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Remington 870 Express youth model. Hunt on Sunday, kick doors on Monday. Cheap, accessable, dependable, effective. There are other choices, but this is all you need (not getting into gauge choices!).
I am the weapon, the gun is my tool.
"Tactical" don't mean much. Sorry if I have offended any of you 'high speed low drag' operators.
That police magnum should serve you well.

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Old 03-03-2013, 17:11   #196
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[QUOTE=Olde School For repelling boarders up close and personal in confined spaces I like a shotgun.

Nothing fancy or technical mind you just a 12 ga. with 00 Buck.

His name is "Claymore".........[/QUOTE]

Priceless Olde School. Wish I had thought of that one!

Mine is "Tunnels".

I never meant to imply arming a complete infantry squad with Mossbergs and hundred round bandoleers then sending them into say the urban combat our boys are facing with the sand terrorists.

I am aware of the long distance heavy incoming that arrives on station in a modern firefight, and know even the best shotgun with crates of ammo on hand wouldn't end nicely.

That said, I just wanted some stories from the Nam, WWII, or Korea/WWI where a alley cleaner showed it mettle.


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Old 03-03-2013, 17:27   #197
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Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?

When armies had bolt rifles, and police had revolvers, the tactical shotgun had more of a distinct advantage than it has now. The one thing where shotguns have the advantage is in stopping power for one shot. It's hard to argue that there is anything more devastating than a 1, or 1 1/4 oz slug, or 00B at close range. Nothing (within reason) is going to have the same effect without follow-up shots.

The answer: No, tactical shotguns aren't obsolete......but, all the other options make smaller the distinctions they once had......

ooc
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:28   #198
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I too prefer my para SKS and my AK if things are breaking bad. But for my narrow hallway that points straight at my front door that has someone else's front door and bedroom right across the street....I like 'ol Tunnels and double load of OO buck.

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Old 03-03-2013, 19:44   #199
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A.) Probably more than just a "couple" years ago.

B.)If it wasn't, he probably didn't use it for much other than breaching. Thats pretty much what the .mil uses shotguns for. IIRC, we have a SGM here who works at the Army shotgun training school.
Multiple Army shotgun quals here as well, however we carried them on a daily basis at a busy border crossing. They are effective "riot" guns when faced en-masse, and out-numbered, by albeit, poorly armed groups. No non-lethal shells, but that stupid, dangerous adage about racking the slide as a warning, unfortunately has merit.

*Mossberg 500A, 5 shot magazine, fed with good ol' Army green hull 00 Buck.

Last edited by eyelikeglasses; 03-03-2013 at 19:50.. Reason: *Fun fact.
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Old 03-03-2013, 20:22   #200
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That's the thing about public perception... they see you with a shotgun they figure you basically can't miss so they are going to get shot... and so they tend to shy away.
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