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Old 02-28-2013, 15:22   #121
iDivideByZero
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Originally Posted by wdp View Post
Military still uses the scatter gun for close combat situations so I guess it depend on the scenario. For HD why not, still the best choice AFAIC
When I was in ('05-'09) the only thing we used shotguns for were breaching doors (slugs to the hinges and/or locks), after that back to M4/M249. The M249 is especially brutal in close quarters, I'd take one over a shotgun any day.
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Old 02-28-2013, 15:26   #122
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Which BCT were/are you with? I was 4th BCT 1/506 from 06-09.
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Old 02-28-2013, 16:24   #123
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My 18 inch tactical combat shotgun is NOT obsolete.

General Firearms Forum
^^ That's what works for me. I've never been in combat and I'm not a tactical kind of guy but for HD that simple short bbl shotgun is just fine. tom.
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Old 02-28-2013, 17:17   #124
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... The "Poison bullet" was not a result of pure velocity in the Russian round but the hollow under the tip which destabilized the bullet in tissue.

Apply that concept to the 7.62 X 51 projectile and see what happens in tissue...
Like the .303 wood tip/core the Brit's developed?

General Firearms Forum

Ya, don't particularly care to be on the receiving end of that ...
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Old 02-28-2013, 17:20   #125
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Yeah, especially when he calls a blunderbuss a blunder bust.
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Old 02-28-2013, 17:56   #126
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Originally Posted by iDivideByZero View Post
Which BCT were/are you with? I was 4th BCT 1/506 from 06-09.
I was in 1BCT from '04-'09. I spent my best time in NO SLACK.

Here's some breaching action for the rest of you guys.
(Though once we crossed the berm we only used Hooleys and Breaching Charges)

General Firearms Forum

OT: The soldier in the photo was my company medic. He was medically discharged with traumatic brain damage from two IED explosions and received two Purple Hearts in AFG. He was killed when a train crashed into his float in a parade in West Texas. Still can't wrap my head around how that happens...
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Old 02-28-2013, 17:58   #127
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Ship boardings are close range, till you enter a ship's hold that's 100m across...

Ex brother in law did ship boardings as a Marine off a CH-46. He took an M-4.
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Old 02-28-2013, 18:05   #128
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Ship boardings are close range, till you enter a ship's hold that's 100m across...
I was going to point that out, but I've never cleared a ship, nor have I trained for it. (Now if we could just get everyone to stay in their lane...)

No way in hellllllllll I'd want to be trading shots Duck Dynasty style against an AK equipped enemy out on the deck...

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Old 02-28-2013, 18:25   #129
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Not to get off topic but some "tactical" shotguns like the 590A1 20" have heavy-walled barrels. What's the purpose of that on a shotgun? Do they need a thick barrel for anything or just perceiving durability?
My 870 Police has a standard thickness barrel (I think...?). Then I see some have thick barrels, but not others.
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Old 02-28-2013, 18:25   #130
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Dang, there's no one-size-fits-all firearm that covers every situation. If that were the case, there'd be one platform, in one caliber...man, it'd be like the choices you had in an old Soviet store! If you can find a SINGLE use for a tactical shotgun, then it's not obsolete as a firearm. Depending on the situation, you need to know which pistol, rifle, or shotgun to grab. If you try to use that shotgun (or any other firearm) in every situation, I wonder about your judgment!

Personally, I use an 870 with #4 buckshot for home defense in my dense suburban environment. 9mm, .40 or other pistol calibers could go wanging through my or myn eighbors’ walls…no thanks. But that’s MY situation. YMMV.

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Old 02-28-2013, 19:13   #131
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I was going to point that out, but I've never cleared a ship, nor have I trained for it. (Now if we could just get everyone to stay in their lane...)

No way in hellllllllll I'd want to be trading shots Duck Dynasty style against an AK equipped enemy out on the deck...

General Firearms Forum
As has been pointed out, different tools for different jobs. Not all boardings are on large container ships. Sometimes you're on a 70 foot trawler with nets, ground tackle, winches, monkfish flopping around trying to bite your boots, and smelly fishermen giving you the evil eye. Other times you're on a 20 foot center console checking grandma and grandpa's life jackets. The Coast Guard still issues and trains with shotguns and not primarily for breaching. Less than lethal rounds are generally available if needed, some of the more specialized units use breaching rounds. However the majority of the training and qualifying with the shotgun for the average Coastie is with 00 and slug. The majority of the time that the average Coastie carries a shotgun on a boarding it is with 00 or slugs loaded and not for breaching or less than lethal. That being said most "average" boardings are conducted with just pistols, most of the time a longgun, regardless of carbine or shotgun is just in the way.
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Old 02-28-2013, 19:17   #132
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I was going to point that out, but I've never cleared a ship, nor have I trained for it. (Now if we could just get everyone to stay in their lane...)

No way in hellllllllll I'd want to be trading shots Duck Dynasty style against an AK equipped enemy out on the deck...

General Firearms Forum
Joe beat me to it and my server crashed midreply....

Since at the time (several years back) my profession involved clearing large and small buildings and aircraft on the ground among other things and his was clearing ships ranging from small freighters to oil tankers as first man in, we did some talking. I asked about shotguns, since I knew the Navy did use them for internal use (having deployed with a couple USN guys who had to requal on M16s, they'd previously only used M9 and shotguns) and queried him on his team's weapon setup.

There's definitely a time or two on a smaller boat or even building I think a shotgun could be handy, but i'd always want to be supported by riflemen (same if I had an SMG). No different than in WW1, where one or two shotgunners for close work were supported by a squad of rifle-and-bayonet guys for 'everything else', and the reason Pershing wanted a pistol for every trooper....for the close work.
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Old 02-28-2013, 19:21   #133
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Personally, I use an 870 with #4 buckshot for home defense in my dense suburban environment. 9mm, .40 or other pistol calibers could go wanging through my or myn eighbors’ walls…no thanks. But that’s MY situation. YMMV.
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Above pic is #4 buckshot, fired from Mossberg 19.5" barrel, fired from 12ft (across the room distance). Penetrated 6 boards of 5/8" thick sheet rock.

Not quiet sure why everyone has this misperception that shotguns don't have penetration capability? The above penetrated the equivalent of three walls found in your standard home...

It does not matter what you are firing, you better be very sure of your target, and what is behind the target before you pull the trigger.
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Old 02-28-2013, 19:33   #134
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I get the idea about #4 buck at 12 feet. But at 12 feet with a clean miss, my pellets will go through 1/2" of drywall, 3 1/2" fiberglass insulation, then whatever crap the builder used for exterior sheathing (not plywood) plus vinyl siding, and here's the important part, 10 to 40 yards of air before crashing into my neighbor's house. #4 buck will be far less devastating traveling through all that than a 158 grains of .357 magnum traveling the same path. What's the spread of #4 buck at 40 yds out of a 18.5" bbl with no choke? What happens to those pellets at that range as they try to punch in through the same wall construction that is just punched out of...40 yrd down range?

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Old 02-28-2013, 21:00   #135
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Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
It's not an either/or choice as each platform has its own positives.

At close range I'd pick the shotgun over the rifle, and as the distance grows the rifle gets the nod.

I remember an episode of Cops where two uniformed LEO appeared at the site of a nighttime armed robbery at a strip mall. The officers were fired on and one LEO armed with his 12 gauge returned fire in the dark in the general vicinity where the gunfire was. Both officers thought the perp had escaped but decided to walk the parking lot. Some distance away, at the edge of the lot, they discovered the dead body of the robber.

From this episode I take away the lesson that a pattern of .30 caliber projectiles has a better chance of one-shot effectiveness (given the particulars of the situation) than a single projectile aimed in the general vicinity.

Is the shotgun obsolete for self-defense? Hardly.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:08   #136
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obsolete, heck no. This may sound like sacrilige but I think police were sold a bill of goods with the patrol rifle and believe the AR platform is overrated for police work. Point and shoot capability (very fast on target) at close range and slugs at moderate ranges, perfect for most situations.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:29   #137
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do I own one? no...

would I like to have one? yes...I've priced a replacement barrel for my Benelli Nova and it costs more that what I paid for my shotgun 4 years ago!!! even a Hastings is up in price, but I can't find any (the downside of buying 'Italian quality' instead of keeping the Mossberg 500 I had previously)

financial constraints prevent me from obtaining one and even used 'hunting' shotguns are rising in price...why? not sure, but I would guess some folks are buying them for conversion into a tactical/defense shotgun by buying a replacement barrel or having barrels cut...

I am steadily buying all types of 12ga loads for my shotgun (just a hunting type pump shotgun) and I have yet to find more than 2 or 3 boxes of .223 or 5.56 in the last 2 months...

another thought came to mind...if a bunch of states or federal government does pass something that limits/bans/eliminates .223/5.56 semiautomatics (as well as 'higher capacity tactical' shotguns) then I think there might be a rise in sales of shotguns that hold 5 rounds with shorter barrels...not quite 'tactical' but very well suited for defense purposes...

if I ever have to 'bug out' or leave my home in a 'survival' manuever I am grabbing my shotgun and a .30-06 hunting rifle as my long guns and leaving the 'defense' rifle if I am limited in what I can haul (same thing goes for handguns...take the .357 magnum & .38 spl stuff and leave the 9mm simply due to versatility)

my overall answer...no not dead, not obsolete, perhaps in 'limbo' since the re-emergence of 'defense' rifles...

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Old 03-01-2013, 10:51   #138
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I USED to think that a shotgun was the greatest defensive tool on earth. But one night, I heard the sound of someone breaking in through the front door. I immediately got up and ran to the back door, where I kept my shotgun "staged" in a closet along with some loose shells. Running now to the front door, I fumbled with the shells and dropped them all on the floor except one. This, despite my panic and adrenaline rush, I managed to load into my pump shotgun.

But again in my panic, I kept jacking the slide on the shotgun -- ejecting the one shell I did have and continuing to pump uselessly. You may ask how my thumb managed to stay on the slide release that whole time I'm moving around. To this day, I couldn't say -- I guess $h1t happens.

I got to the front door, and the sound of me repeatedly racking the slide must have scared the attempted house-breaker away, because I opened the front door to see him fleeing into the night. I immediately fell to the floor, threw up my guts, and wept like a little girl.

This experience has taught me that shotguns are useless for home defense, and that one would be better served with a cell phone set to speed-dial 911 and a Depends adult diaper.









[/satire]

(with the help of a leftist article posted a few weeks ago)
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:07   #139
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I USED to think that a shotgun was the greatest defensive tool on earth. But one night, I heard the sound of someone breaking in through the front door. I immediately got up and ran to the back door, where I kept my shotgun "staged" in a closet along with some loose shells. Running now to the front door, I fumbled with the shells and dropped them all on the floor except one. This, despite my panic and adrenaline rush, I managed to load into my pump shotgun.

But again in my panic, I kept jacking the slide on the shotgun -- ejecting the one shell I did have and continuing to pump uselessly. You may ask how my thumb managed to stay on the slide release that whole time I'm moving around. To this day, I couldn't say -- I guess $h1t happens.

I got to the front door, and the sound of me repeatedly racking the slide must have scared the attempted house-breaker away, because I opened the front door to see him fleeing into the night. I immediately fell to the floor, threw up my guts, and wept like a little girl.

This experience has taught me that shotguns are useless for home defense, and that one would be better served with a cell phone set to speed-dial 911 and a Depends adult diaper.









[/satire]

(with the help of a leftist article posted a few weeks ago)
see ... your first fail point was when it wasn't a double barrel, and the second failure point was when you didn't go out on your balcony and fire both shells into the air ...
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:20   #140
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see ... your first fail point was when it wasn't a double barrel, and the second failure point was when you didn't go out on your balcony and fire both shells into the air ...

Thanks for that great advice -- I'm sure it's approved SOP in any municipality in the country! General Firearms Forum


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