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Old 03-01-2013, 16:59   #151
Restless28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWI View Post
Use a Saiga 12 or VEPR 12 if you think a standard tube fed shotty is too slow.
Please don't say "shotty".

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Old 03-01-2013, 17:20   #152
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Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
Not to get off topic but some "tactical" shotguns like the 590A1 20" have heavy-walled barrels. What's the purpose of that on a shotgun? Do they need a thick barrel for anything or just perceiving durability?
My 870 Police has a standard thickness barrel (I think...?). Then I see some have thick barrels, but not others.
The 590A1 has the heavy walled barrel because, as stated in this thread, the Navy/USMC are the primary purchasers and users of those shotguns and shipboard shotguns can get "dinged" going just about anywhere, on ladders, hatches, watertight door openings, name it. The barrel is meant to hold up to that.

As for the supertanker problem, the beauty in boarding a ship is that you get to see how big it is before you set out to it. The shotguns are always augmented by M-14 rifles and the bigger the vessel the more of them are issued out of the weapons lockers.
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Old 03-01-2013, 17:57   #153
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For home defense, at living room ranges, I would much rather have my mossberg 500 than any of my glocks. No over penetration and ONE shot stops.

I hope I don't live next door to anybody who has plans to blaze away at an intruder with a rifle.
Depends on the rounds used in both.
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Old 03-01-2013, 18:32   #154
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Obsolete, probably won't ever be. Too cheap to buy, too easy to use, and too damn reliable.
But reading this thread from the beginning got me thinking.
Before we get into this know that I have an 870, a Colt 6920, and a SLR 107 all set-up for HD. I like them all.
1) if I had 8 rounds in my 12 gauge with some good #4 shot (or #1 personally) would I feel more comfortable with 8 one shot stops? If all center mass hits.
How many would argue that it takes (normally) 3-4 hits with a .223 to stop the BG. Wouldn't that make it close to even on the high capacity thing? I'm no expert, just going by some things I've been told, and it's just a question. Take it easy on me.
2) on the other side of the equation, those nine .30 (or whatever your load works out to be) may deliver more pellets/bullets (I've heard some say "1 shot from my shotgun has more payload than a .357 mag revolver". Well, there's 1 big problem, those pellets won't, and don't, expand like HP's will.
Now, me personally, I've got it down to this.
In my house and in my car, pistol (I like the attached light giving me the free hand in the house).
In the yard, 870. I like the chances of a 1 shot stop.
Coyote hunting, AR.
Hear something, but don't have a clue what it was, walking out with my AK, attached bright white light, Aimpoint micro.
Use what you want and are comfortable with. Be happy.
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Old 03-01-2013, 19:20   #155
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Here's a little truth to be heard here..........

No matter what you use for HD, you are preparing for the unknown.

Pick the weapon of your choice, and there is a possibility if, and when the time comes to use it......you could have made exactly the wrong choice.

Chances are that no matter what you choose, there will be plenty of possibilities where you could prevail with a variety of possible choices.

Depending on the timing, and when and where I might need to defend myself and family......it could end up being a shotgun, or a rifle, or a pistol, or a revolver. Any one of those things could mean I die.......and any one of those things could mean a bad guy gets stopped.

......it's all a gamble.

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Old 03-01-2013, 19:47   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boats View Post
Only by landlubbers. The fleet loves them some shotguns.
Nothing says "Prepare to be boarded" better in my opinion
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Old 03-01-2013, 19:51   #157
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Originally Posted by hogship View Post
Here's a little truth to be heard here..........

No matter what you use for HD, you are preparing for the unknown.

Pick the weapon of your choice, and there is a possibility if, and when the time comes to use it......you could have made exactly the wrong choice.

Chances are that no matter what you choose, there will be plenty of possibilities where you could prevail with a variety of possible choices.

Depending on the timing, and when and where I might need to defend myself and family......it could end up being a shotgun, or a rifle, or a pistol, or a revolver. Any one of those things could mean I die.......and any one of those things could mean a bad guy gets stopped.

......it's all a gamble.

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Bravo sir, well said.
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Old 03-01-2013, 20:14   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullman View Post
Nothing says "Prepare to be boarded" better in my opinion
I don't know. A shotgun isn't a very intimidating weapon compared to putting a 5 inch round across the bow.
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Old 03-01-2013, 20:37   #159
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Originally Posted by FloorPoor View Post
I hope I don't live next door to anybody who has plans to blaze away at an intruder with a rifle.
Blaze away????

What are you some dizzy headed lib that rants about things turning into "the Wild West" or "Macho Men" out "Packing Heat?

Slap yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
Please don't say "shotty".
Even though I'm not yo' man, you not mah gurl, I'ma call you my shoooooooooooty...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
Before we get into this know that I have an 870, a Colt 6920, and a SLR 107 all set-up for HD. I like them all.
...and you're probably going to be stopping rounds with your upper torso when the **** goes down and you're still trying to decide "what to wear."

Pick one and roll with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
How many would argue that it takes (normally) 3-4 hits with a .223 to stop the BG. Wouldn't that make it close to even on the high capacity thing? I'm no expert, just going by some things I've been told, and it's just a question. Take it easy on me.
The vast majority of humans, when shot with an M4, immediately hit the ground deader than ****.

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Old 03-01-2013, 21:08   #160
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...and you're probably going to be stopping rounds with your upper torso when the **** goes down and you're still trying to decide "what to wear."

Pick one and roll with it.
You should re-read my post. According to the situation.
Are you one of those that think one weapon can do it all?
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Old 03-01-2013, 21:14   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
1) if I had 8 rounds in my 12 gauge with some good #4 shot (or #1 personally) would I feel more comfortable with 8 one shot stops? If all center mass hits.
How many would argue that it takes (normally) 3-4 hits with a .223 to stop the BG. Wouldn't that make it close to even on the high capacity thing? I'm no expert, just going by some things I've been told, and it's just a question. Take it easy on me.

I've not seen hundreds of people shot, but of the few that I've seen, and the bodies I saw, very few took more than 1-2 hits COM before they expired.



5.56, especially at ranges of under 150 yds, is decidedly lethal. You hit a guy in the chest, he's going down, and he's going to need some immediate medical attention if he wants to live.




You will ofcourse, find some instances of guys soaking up rounds and keeping fighting. But that happens with lots of calibers, including the mighty 12 gauge.
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Old 03-01-2013, 23:08   #162
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Nothing says "Prepare to be boarded" better in my opinion
Never did get an argument with that black hole of death staring at whomever it was pointed against.

I am convinced it's not just the cost, but the intimidation factor too, that keeps them on boarding party duty. Foreigners in particular get bug eyed by the 12ga. Must not see many shotguns as "weapons."
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Old 03-01-2013, 23:25   #163
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post



You will ofcourse, find some instances of guys soaking up rounds and keeping fighting. But that happens with lots of calibers, including the mighty 12 gauge.
And THOSE are the ones that get reported.

Its because its so rare.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:14   #164
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I'm a little late to the party, but I'm here to add a "professional" perspective that a few armchair warriors aren't fully grasping.

The 18" shotgun is a viable and very effective weapon system. It is in use by most if not all maritime security and military forces world wide. LE uses it not just in patrol vehicles and sert breaching and clearing operations, but in correctional facilities as well. It is used with both lethal and non lethal munitions to great effect daily by hundreds of people.

Security alert forces on ships use it because it won't over penetrate the bulk heads and works as a great fire suppression tool. MIO (or maritime intervention operations) use the shotgun for boarding, search and seizure missions, again as the shotgun is far superior to a rifle within the skin of a ship.

Shotguns are even used for gate guard duty and are effective up to 25 yards accurately and with very tight groupings.

As far as LE, shotguns are used in perimeter and patrol vehicles often as a shotgun is more effective in an encounter within 25 yards. With modern semi auto shotguns or proper technique with a pump gun, you can keep a steady and constant rate of fire on target long enough to end a threat.

Within corrections the shotgun is also used lethally for escapes and self defense. It also serves a purpose for less than lethal force, but honestly if you are going to go less than lethal, you'd grab a 40 or 37mm.

Would I be comfortable using only a shotgun in a combat situation? Yes, modern buckshot and sabot rounds are extremely effective. Does the military and law enforcement communities use the shotgun for more than breaching and less than lethal? Yep, more than you know.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:45   #165
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I have read each post carefully and watched the YouTube video. Something I keep seeing is the occasional mention of shotguns used in combat from WWI, WWII, the Nam, and the current mess we are facing with the sand folks.
If you used a combat shotgun (not in door busting role), what ranges, loads, situations? How did it function in actual combat?

I personally have a 12 Ga hammerless side by side Coach Gun. I know. Not enough shots and slow to reload. It is also light, 36" long, (read that as HIGHLY manuverable in my small roomed house and narrow hallway, easy for my petite wife to handle/discharge), and offers two fast manshreading rounds w/o reloading.

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Old 03-02-2013, 09:28   #166
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The 12 ga.shotgun is the best choice for home defense. I have three within easy reach, an 870 with 20 inch bbl., a Stoeger sxs , and a Vang Comp 870 with sidesaddle for slugs and butstock holder for buck. I have rubber pellet and slug loads nearby for less lethal, and the Vang is loaded with a turkey load, one short. I am prepared for anything with that setup, from inside the home, no overpenetration, to stepping outside for a slug select out to 150 yards. My M4 is there for major issues, but my shotguns will handle most eventualities. I would never choose a handgun knowing I was going to be in a gunfight, that is a fools choice. I have trained extensively for use of a long gun in close quarters, and I'm comfortable with the choice to pull the trigger to remove anything from the end of the barrel that I don't want on there.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:03   #167
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[QUOTE=ChuteTheMall;20028730]
I have the most fun with my SxS rabbit-eared Cimarron/TTN coachgun shooting cowboy action matches, competing against Winchester/Norinco model 97 pump guns. Quick reloading and quick shooting is stressed in this sport./[QUOTE]

Wow I wish I could find a Cimarron/TTN.

Steve
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:20   #168
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A 18" 12ga pump shotgun will answer nearly all realistic home defense issues pretty well. Its only when people start talking about fringe hollywood movie ideas of citizens combat does the shotgun begin to fall short. I dont think the shotgun will ever be obsolete in joe citizen applications.
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Old 03-02-2013, 14:51   #169
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Blaze away????

What are you some dizzy headed lib that rants about things turning into "the Wild West" or "Macho Men" out "Packing Heat?

Slap yourself.
I am definitely NOT a lib, unless you mean libertarian. But I do know that there are very many people who own "defense rifles" who are total ****ing dip ****s. Purchasing a gun doesn't automatically make someone more responsible or intelligent.
There are guys that WILL just "blaze away" because they don't practice, and don't have a clue, or just don't care about safe and responsible gun ownership. They bought an AK or an AR because they thought they "look badass" These are usually the same type of guys who haul a bunch of junk appliances out to BLM land, shoot it up, and leave it. And there are plenty of those around where I live.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have guns, I'm just saying I don't want some idiot in the house next door emptying a 30 rd mag from an AK in the general direction of an intruder. Bullets penetrate walls, and I have kids. I would prefer they use an appropriate weapon for the job.

Slap yourself.

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Old 03-02-2013, 15:01   #170
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I don't know. A shotgun isn't a very intimidating weapon compared to putting a 5 inch round across the bow.
Good point
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:52   #171
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Is it the longarm of choice for infantry or other warfighters? Of course not. Is it the most devastating and reliable weapon an ordinary guy can buy for a reasonable price that will handle 99.99% of home defense needs? You bet your ass. This infatuation with ARs and AKs, which i love, is just a little unrealistic. An 870 or 500 with 5 or 6 00 bucks will handle any issue the vast majority of us will ever face.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:00   #172
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Does an AR have?


Non-lethal rounds
Breaching rounds
Slugs
6-14, .25-.35 caliber projectiles with one pull of a trigger
sabot rounds--.45-.50 caliber
duplex loads of a slug and buck

or how about three 60 caliber projectiles?!!
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:14   #173
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The issue I think we're getting into here, is the key word "tactical" in "tactical shotgun".


When guys like Kev, Murphy, myself, AirbornInfantry, etc talk about "tactical" we're generally talking about people who use the gun with the intent to kill someone. NOT guys hiding in the bedroom with a shotgun trained on the door waiting for the police to show up.

From this, I will also exclude, the non SWAT/CERT/whatever police use, as their use of a firearm, is also largely defensive, much like that of a civilian.

In the .mil/tactical useage, the shotgun has become the tertiary choice for the majority of users. Behind both the rifle, and the pistol.

There are some niche roles where it is still a front line choice, but it truly has become a niche weapon because it has some significant limitations, and what few advantages it does offer, are not enough to offset its drawbacks.

From a tactical standpoint, again, taking the weapon and going out looking for trouble, it has

A.) Very limited ammo capacity
B.) Very limited scope of engagement
C.) Longer reload time
D.) Possibility of having to perform a Select a XXX drill if you find yourself outside the engagement envelope of the round you have chambered/in the tube
E.) Relegated to headshot/hipshots against armored opponents
F.) Doesn't share ammo commonality with other team members
G.) Its lack of precision can make shots on partial obscured targets either impossible, or potentially harmful to captives/bystanders/others.


Its advantages

A.) Versatility in ammo choices/selection
B.) Ability to fire LL gives you a escalation of force not provide by most other platforms

In the end, you can argue till you're blue in the face if you don't agree with the facts I've posted, but the proof really is in the numbers. "Tactical Shotguns" are, in ever increasing numbers being relegated to the roles of LL employment, and Breaching duty. Aside from those roles, and some some niche duty, with units like boarding duties and, and prisoner control and similar, you just don't see them anymore.

With the new 40mm/37mm launchers, we're even seeing a move away from the shotgun in the LL platform, and dynamic entry/explosive entry is rapidly derringer those markets as well.

Also, you have to look no further than the Hollywood shoot out, to see why "Tactical Shotguns" are being replaced.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now on the civilian side/non "tactical" LEO/home defense etc

Its doing very well, and will never be replaced. Many people rely upon their shotguns to do "dual" duty of putting food on the table, and defending their homes from intruders/pets.

And in that role, its versatility is unmatched. And furthermore the majority of its downsides are dependent upon situations that are not realistically common enough to warrant replacement as a self defense weapon.

Low capacity, isn't such an issue when you're not going out looking for a fight.

Being that most users are not likely to leave the house with the weapon, they are unlikely to suddenly find themselves outside the range/envelope of the capability of their weapon.

Since most home invaders, in non drug related break ins, are not wearing body armor, its limitations against a armored opponent are not a realistic drawback.

Chances of having to make a shot around a hostage, for your average home owner, are slim, so its lack of precision is less of an issue, though it does bring into question what happens if/when you miss.

And its large ammo selection capability make it a good choice in a rural setting, as its capable of dealing with almost any pest you're likely to encounter from rats/racoons/badgers with bird shot, to animals like polar and brown bears with slugs.




I think alot of the arguing/bickering has been because people have been reading it as "are shotguns out dated" and then jumping in to see guys like Kev saying, yep, they're being replaced/relegated to niche duty, and getting fired up, before they understand just what he's saying.
AK Stick:

That's it. The shotgun is the premier home defense weapon. I'm not a young badass infantryman, just an old Dad and husband looking to defend my family. for my purposes a 12 guage pump is the best option. My SKS and any other 7.62 is great too, but 00 buck rocks.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:18   #174
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My 18 inch tactical combat shotgun is NOT obsolete.

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Perfect and affordable.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:30   #175
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^^ That's what works for me. I've never been in combat and I'm not a tactical kind of guy but for HD that simple short bbl shotgun is just fine. tom.
You and I are in the same boat, brother. I'm not a "professional" and don't pretend to be.
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