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Old 02-27-2013, 13:45   #101
KalashniKEV
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Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
The Army conducted a study, the result of which was development of the 5.56mm, and downsizing the AR-10 (in 7.62 Nato) to the 5.56 to meet the requirement.

LeMay may have adopted it first, but the ARMY specifically asked for a small caliber, lightweight recoil weapon with increased lethality.

It was never designed to wound, the early Special Forces reports praised it's incredible lethality in the early twist barrels with guys who actually knew how to make hits, not just throw mags off on auto.
You dispelled one rumor and may have referenced another (the "Meat Axe").

It's the speed that kills on SCHV rounds. That's the source of their incredible lethality... and it is incredible.

Just think about how many scrawny third worlders can lift up their shirts and show off in-and-out entry and exit wounds left from .30 cal AK rounds...

"Dees is number one. Dees is de one from when I was 23. Dees is from my cousin when I was 26..."

When the 5.45 showed up in Afghanistan the locals thought it was a poison bullet because everyone who got shot with SCHV actually died- rather than just sit out the rest of the fighting season if it wasn't a CNS or major organ hit.

I too believed that the "barely stabilized" bullets yawed earlier in the target and created greater tissue damage and more devastating wound channels until I read what DocGKR had to say on the subject.
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:18   #102
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:19   #103
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Old 02-27-2013, 14:32   #104
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
You dispelled one rumor and may have referenced another (the "Meat Axe").

It's the speed that kills on SCHV rounds. That's the source of their incredible lethality... and it is incredible.

Just think about how many scrawny third worlders can lift up their shirts and show off in-and-out entry and exit wounds left from .30 cal AK rounds...

"Dees is number one. Dees is de one from when I was 23. Dees is from my cousin when I was 26..."

When the 5.45 showed up in Afghanistan the locals thought it was a poison bullet because everyone who got shot with SCHV actually died- rather than just sit out the rest of the fighting season if it wasn't a CNS or major organ hit.

I too believed that the "barely stabilized" bullets yawed earlier in the target and created greater tissue damage and more devastating wound channels until I read what DocGKR had to say on the subject.
Do a bit more research. "Barely stabilized" rounds are also "barely accurate"

The "Poison bullet" was not a result of pure velocity in the Russian round but the hollow under the tip which destabilized the bullet in tissue.

Apply that concept to the 7.62 X 51 projectile and see what happens in tissue.

Oh yes, the shotgun is just as obsolete as self contained cartridges, lead projectiles, and iron sights. Why we cling to such things is beyond me, they re all so "Last century"
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:18   #105
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I just wonder where everyone lives that they need (not want) a rifle with 400 yd capability to defend their homes. Where I live, a rifle's capability is limited to about 100 ft.before going thru the neighbor's house. Shotguns have the advantage of stopping power that dissipates so there is less or no collateral damage to the occupants next door or next room. If you need a bazooka to defend your home, I suggest you move to a safer neighborhood. Life is too short to live in Condition Red all the time.
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Old 02-27-2013, 15:46   #106
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
You dispelled one rumor and may have referenced another (the "Meat Axe").

It's the speed that kills on SCHV rounds. That's the source of their incredible lethality... and it is incredible.

Just think about how many scrawny third worlders can lift up their shirts and show off in-and-out entry and exit wounds left from .30 cal AK rounds...

"Dees is number one. Dees is de one from when I was 23. Dees is from my cousin when I was 26..."

When the 5.45 showed up in Afghanistan the locals thought it was a poison bullet because everyone who got shot with SCHV actually died- rather than just sit out the rest of the fighting season if it wasn't a CNS or major organ hit.

I too believed that the "barely stabilized" bullets yawed earlier in the target and created greater tissue damage and more devastating wound channels until I read what DocGKR had to say on the subject.
I think it all comes down to speed. In Vietnam-era rifles, first of all, almost everyone was carrying a full 20" barrel, so that's a velocity boost. Second, they were shooting lighter, faster rounds to begin with.

Most of the changes post-A1 to the M16 family have decreased its lethality. Everyone wants shorter barrels. Add to that the M855 ammo, which is both slower and less prone to fragmentation, and you have a recipe for significantly decreased terminal ballistics.

It was special forces guys in Vietnam who first praised the M16, and it was Delta guys in Mogadishu who condemned the horrible, horrible combination that is M855 ammo from a short barrel (believe most of them were using 10.5" Commandos).
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Old 02-27-2013, 16:17   #107
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Originally Posted by bill4282 View Post
I just wonder where everyone lives that they need (not want) a rifle with 400 yd capability to defend their homes. Where I live, a rifle's capability is limited to about 100 ft.before going thru the neighbor's house. Shotguns have the advantage of stopping power that dissipates so there is less or no collateral damage to the occupants next door or next room. If you need a bazooka to defend your home, I suggest you move to a safer neighborhood. Life is too short to live in Condition Red all the time.
I might be able to hit a neighbor's house if I try, but it would be a chore. That doesn't mean my SOCOM 16 is my answer to an HD situation.

I don't really want to get into a "caliber" debate, but I have seen a miserable failure of a .223 factory "hunting" round that left me with doubts. Actually seeing it is hard to overcome. Certainly no round has a 100% success rate but the shotgun is up in the good end of the ratio. I fail to see how they payload of the shotgun has gotten any smaller or less effective over the years so therefore I fail to see how it is obsolete.

You have opened the door for someone to mention test showing the limited over penetration of the 5.56 rnd which, supposedly makes it a better HD round. Odd then, that the same lack of penetration would make it a better round than a 12 ga slug, or a 7.62 round when penetration IS needed
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Old 02-27-2013, 18:15   #108
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I think it is the very best in all aspects with in 10 yards. and if not in a high density area say out in acreage 5 or larger, It is the best with in 40 yards to account for the stray pellets hurting someone not intended.

Why? Well to repeat the past posters with one trigger pull your launching 9 to 12 to 15 00 buckshot pellets depending on the load. For the larger loads I think there is 15 00 pellets. so with 2 quick pulls of a trigger you just put up to 30 rounds into a bad guy.

If they have body armor I rather have a shotgun shooting at the head and pelvis if there close and get up to 30 shots in there head and or pelvis if better than gambling on a rifle or handgun getting through the armor. Remember some armor can stop some rifle rounds with trama plate.

5, 10 , 15, 33cal lead balls into your head will stop better than misses from a single shot or two.

I still dont understand where in the Hollywood Shootout that shotgun blasts into the head area did not take out the Perps. If 2 cops emptied 2 shotguns with 8 shots of just 9 pellets that is 72 33cal pellets for each perps head and I think at least 5 should/would have hit the head even with a large spread. I dont have the after action report but did they even try putting the bead on their head and pull the trigger. of did they just do body shots or spray and pray?

As the other posters said, a shotgun is the most lethal and immieadiate stopping compared to most others options.
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:22   #109
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They were under fire from up to 50m away, under heavy full-auto suppressive fire.

LAPD also does not train for headshots specificallly IIRC.
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:41   #110
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Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
The Army conducted a study, the result of which was development of the 5.56mm, and downsizing the AR-10 (in 7.62 Nato) to the 5.56 to meet the requirement.

LeMay may have adopted it first, but the ARMY specifically asked for a small caliber, lightweight recoil weapon with increased lethality.

It was never designed to wound, the early Special Forces reports praised it's incredible lethality in the early twist barrels with guys who actually knew how to make hits, not just throw mags off on auto.


so much fail in one post

you most definitely need to read this book:


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Old 02-27-2013, 21:03   #111
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I know lots of guys will wade through the muck with their Benelli or Wingmaster shotguns and bring ducks home for dinner.

But I'm talking about the shorter ones, the 18-inch-ish configuration ones with the purpose of using it for police work, "SHTF" or whatever, essentially using it for the purposes one would use a carbine.

While watching an episode of Rescue 911 (Bonus points if you remember when that show was on the air!) on YouTube, an officer was being shot by an offender at a distance that apparently was out of shotgun range, so after being injured he had to somehow reach for his M14 patrol rifle and fire back.

People have valid criticisms of the shotgun, including:
"It's too heavy!"
"It's too slow to reload"
"It holds too few rounds"
"Its limited in effective distance which puts me at a disadvantage"

All of those are good points. I mean, after all, an AR which holds 30 rounds (or 5 to 10 depending on how horrible your local laws are ) is lighter, quicker handling, and recoils significantly less. It can be reloaded quicker, is more accurate, especialy out to distance, and can be used in versatile conditions.

It seems to be the nail in the coffin of what would be a tactical shotgun. I mean, wouldn't cops or civilians alike want 30 rounds on tap compared to 6 or 7? Faster follow-up shots versus having to pump? Eliminating the jams associated with short stroking the action? Something easier on both the shoulder and the pocketbook (assuming we're talking buckshot and slug prices).

Surely somebody will stick up for the tactical shotgun? I voted with my money, with a top of the line 870 Police Magnum. Though 7.62x39 semi-automatic rifles that hang in the safe have many of the same positive attributes.

Despite the demerits against the shotgun, I can't help but grab it and a pocket full of buckshot and slugs when I head out into the woods.

But I see less and less people who want a shotgun and make a b-line for some kind of a carbine in its place, or keep the 12 gauge for birds or maybe a slug barrel for deer in wooded areas.

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
Walking in Brown Bear country, do you want a 12 gauge or a M4? I've read that you want a shotgun in this case. What say anyone?
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:05   #112
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Walking in Brown Bear country, do you want a 12 gauge or a M4? I've read that you want a shotgun in this case. What say anyone?
Of the two?? Shotgun no question
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Old 02-27-2013, 23:50   #113
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Walking in Brown Bear country, do you want a 12 gauge or a M4? I've read that you want a shotgun in this case. What say anyone?
This is up for huge debate on Canadian forums. I would bring my 12 ga with slugs. Maybe my 30-06. I've never seen a brown bear, but one has seen me, and that's unnerving (somebody told me it was watching us shoot)

I really hope I never run into a brown bear again. Black bears are everywhere 1 hour outside the city, though they're pretty scary looking up close.

I would definitely NOT use a .223 against a bear. Or buckshot for that matter. .30-06 rifle or 12 gauge slugs. Maybe a 45-70. And good running shoes.
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Old 02-28-2013, 00:40   #114
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Walking in Brown Bear country, do you want a 12 gauge or a M4? I've read that you want a shotgun in this case. What say anyone?


The topic is tactical shotguns, not hunting guns.

You're not really comparing apples to apples.



That said, I take a black rifle into brown bear country quite often.

They're not really nearly as scary as they're made out to be.
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Old 02-28-2013, 00:43   #115
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This is up for huge debate on Canadian forums. I would bring my 12 ga with slugs. Maybe my 30-06. I've never seen a brown bear, but one has seen me, and that's unnerving (somebody told me it was watching us shoot)

I really hope I never run into a brown bear again. Black bears are everywhere 1 hour outside the city, though they're pretty scary looking up close.

I would definitely NOT use a .223 against a bear. Or buckshot for that matter. .30-06 rifle or 12 gauge slugs. Maybe a 45-70. And good running shoes.

Bah, blackbears, especially interior black bears are not really tough or hard to kill. A 223 with a good bullet is more than enough.

I killed one with a 10mm, and the 223 is quite a bit more powerful.


Brown bear are a little bit of a different story, but I would probably take one with a 223 given the right circumstances.

I know atleast one person who's killed a charging brown bear with a single well placed 223 round.....
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:46   #116
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Anyone that thinks a shotgun is obsolete has never used one in combat.
I used one in Vietnam in 68-69 and you DON'T want to be on the recieving end
of one!
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:28   #117
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Excellent post. Truly excellent!
Yeah, especially when he calls a blunderbuss a blunder bust.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:38   #118
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Anyone that thinks a shotgun is obsolete has never used one in combat.
I used one in Vietnam in 68-69 and you DON'T want to be on the recieving end
of one!
Dano
Unless you're on the receiving end ~200m away, flipping the bird and slamming rounds on target with a rifle or carbine. I'll take that drink most days.

Stop using the word "obsolete."

There is a reason why shotguns in professional use are relegated to breaching and non lethal applications.

And yes, I did bring a shotgun. Maybe even the same one...
(Was it a Winnie?)

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Old 02-28-2013, 13:21   #119
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If I was out to sea boarding ships at least I know my pump shotgun is going to function. I can also use it as a spare paddle if neccessary. Ship boarding is gonna be close range and thats what they are made for. I was LE for a couple years and now Im in the military. I went to a tactical shotgun class back in 2005. The instructor was a scary dude with how fast and efficient he had become with an 870.

Very impressive to say the least!

I like my AR, but if I had to choose one to count my life on I would rather have the 870. Sorry, but in my opinion if your in an urban area and your good with a shotgun, you are definately the man to beat.

Additionally under pressure you dont have to be spot on accurate to hit the bad guy. Feet and faces on armoured dudes tends to work well.
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Old 02-28-2013, 14:25   #120
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Sometimes, I need a carpenters hammer. It does nearly all things well.

But sometimes, I need the BFH. The three pounder. I occasionally need to hit something hard enough that the outcome cannot be questioned.
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