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Old 02-26-2013, 19:25   #81
Restless28
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Originally Posted by I Shooter View Post
You are talking abut two different types of weapons. The shotgun is a defensive weapon. The AR is an assault type weapon. Yes I know it isn't full auto or burst fire, that is the only difference between the M16.

The 5.56 was designed to hurt people not kill them. The idea was that it takes more troops to take care of a wounded man than it did a dead one. The wounded man is taken out of the fight and he has to be taken care of.

If it was about killing troops they would have stayed with the 308. All so you get to carry more ammo because of its light weight.

On a side note. Some in the know claim that because of the AR and its spray and pray manner that is the reason in the Vietnam war we used five times the ammo to kill a man as was used in World War 2. Did they have better rifle men then or better rifles. I would say they had better rifles. I know they had more power.

The shotgun takes its birth back to the days of the blunder bust. It was effective then and it still is.

At 20' down the hall from a bad guy you cut loose with a 12 gage number 4 buck out of a short cylinder bore barreled shot gun the bad guy is going to have a very bad day. At that point the pattern is about 2' the hallway is 4' or less. With two shots you have hit the bad guy many times.

With the AR you pull the trigger twice and you may get two hits. If not then you have two bullets running at around 3000 fps running a muck.

The shotgun is a great weapon. It works well in the home and around the house. The AR is what it was built to be and under powered rifle with to light of a bullet to do any thing well.

Don't get me wrong I like shooting the 5.56 it is good fun. If I need a rifle I want one that has stopping power like the 308 or 358, not a mouse gun.

Yes I know the 5.56 can on one hand go through any thing then on the next hand it can't go through drywall it is safer than a shotgun. The fan boy stuff a lot of you come up with over the AR is just bull.

Why do you think so many people are wild catting calibers for the AR? They are looking for a round that makes it a better killing rife.
Excellent post. Truly excellent!
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:44   #82
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Other than breaching.....yes, tactical ones obsolete sonce we can get carbines.
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:44   #83
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Excellent post. Truly excellent!
That was the dumbest thing I've seen on the internet in awhile.
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:57   #84
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Yes tactical shotguns are obsolete, so are AR's, because Joe Biden says a double barrel will do just fine.
All you need is two rounds a balcony and the sky.
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:13   #85
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Other than breaching.....yes, tactical ones obsolete sonce we can get carbines.
Are we talking the Spencer or the Winchester 66 ?

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Old 02-26-2013, 20:30   #86
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For building searches, etc., I would always go for the shotgun first. It has a lot of uses in that arena, but outside of that, there are better options.
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:41   #87
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That was the dumbest thing I've seen on the internet in awhile.
+1

Me too.
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:39   #88
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If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area thatís urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if thereís ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoeverís coming in is not going. You donít need a shotgun. Itís harder to load; itís harder to pump. And in fact, you donít need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
It's like you took Biden's shotgun comment and ran it through an urban thug translator. This is why the Democrat overlords in big cities push gun control so much - they hear crap like this from their constituents all the time.
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:40   #89
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If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area thatís urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if thereís ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoeverís coming in is not going. You donít need a shotgun. Itís harder to load; itís harder to pump. And in fact, you donít need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
I have a Saiga 12, is that OK? It's not a pump and is mag/drum fed, you know, kinda like an AK.
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:58   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Shooter View Post
You are talking abut two different types of weapons. The shotgun is a defensive weapon. The AR is an assault type weapon. Yes I know it isn't full auto or burst fire, that is the only difference between the M16.

The 5.56 was designed to hurt people not kill them. The idea was that it takes more troops to take care of a wounded man than it did a dead one. The wounded man is taken out of the fight and he has to be taken care of.

If it was about killing troops they would have stayed with the 308. All so you get to carry more ammo because of its light weight.

On a side note. Some in the know claim that because of the AR and its spray and pray manner that is the reason in the Vietnam war we used five times the ammo to kill a man as was used in World War 2. Did they have better rifle men then or better rifles. I would say they had better rifles. I know they had more power.

The shotgun takes its birth back to the days of the blunder bust. It was effective then and it still is.

At 20' down the hall from a bad guy you cut loose with a 12 gage number 4 buck out of a short cylinder bore barreled shot gun the bad guy is going to have a very bad day. At that point the pattern is about 2' the hallway is 4' or less. With two shots you have hit the bad guy many times.

With the AR you pull the trigger twice and you may get two hits. If not then you have two bullets running at around 3000 fps running a muck.

The shotgun is a great weapon. It works well in the home and around the house. The AR is what it was built to be and under powered rifle with to light of a bullet to do any thing well.

Don't get me wrong I like shooting the 5.56 it is good fun. If I need a rifle I want one that has stopping power like the 308 or 358, not a mouse gun.

Yes I know the 5.56 can on one hand go through any thing then on the next hand it can't go through drywall it is safer than a shotgun. The fan boy stuff a lot of you come up with over the AR is just bull.

Why do you think so many people are wild catting calibers for the AR? They are looking for a round that makes it a better killing rife.



You win ignorant post of the day. Congrats on unseating both Peace Warrior and NorthCarolinaLiberty.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:32   #91
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The issue I think we're getting into here, is the key word "tactical" in "tactical shotgun".


When guys like Kev, Murphy, myself, AirbornInfantry, etc talk about "tactical" we're generally talking about people who use the gun with the intent to kill someone. NOT guys hiding in the bedroom with a shotgun trained on the door waiting for the police to show up.

From this, I will also exclude, the non SWAT/CERT/whatever police use, as their use of a firearm, is also largely defensive, much like that of a civilian.

In the .mil/tactical useage, the shotgun has become the tertiary choice for the majority of users. Behind both the rifle, and the pistol.

There are some niche roles where it is still a front line choice, but it truly has become a niche weapon because it has some significant limitations, and what few advantages it does offer, are not enough to offset its drawbacks.

From a tactical standpoint, again, taking the weapon and going out looking for trouble, it has

A.) Very limited ammo capacity
B.) Very limited scope of engagement
C.) Longer reload time
D.) Possibility of having to perform a Select a XXX drill if you find yourself outside the engagement envelope of the round you have chambered/in the tube
E.) Relegated to headshot/hipshots against armored opponents
F.) Doesn't share ammo commonality with other team members
G.) Its lack of precision can make shots on partial obscured targets either impossible, or potentially harmful to captives/bystanders/others.


Its advantages

A.) Versatility in ammo choices/selection
B.) Ability to fire LL gives you a escalation of force not provide by most other platforms

In the end, you can argue till you're blue in the face if you don't agree with the facts I've posted, but the proof really is in the numbers. "Tactical Shotguns" are, in ever increasing numbers being relegated to the roles of LL employment, and Breaching duty. Aside from those roles, and some some niche duty, with units like boarding duties and, and prisoner control and similar, you just don't see them anymore.

With the new 40mm/37mm launchers, we're even seeing a move away from the shotgun in the LL platform, and dynamic entry/explosive entry is rapidly derringer those markets as well.

Also, you have to look no further than the Hollywood shoot out, to see why "Tactical Shotguns" are being replaced.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now on the civilian side/non "tactical" LEO/home defense etc

Its doing very well, and will never be replaced. Many people rely upon their shotguns to do "dual" duty of putting food on the table, and defending their homes from intruders/pets.

And in that role, its versatility is unmatched. And furthermore the majority of its downsides are dependent upon situations that are not realistically common enough to warrant replacement as a self defense weapon.

Low capacity, isn't such an issue when you're not going out looking for a fight.

Being that most users are not likely to leave the house with the weapon, they are unlikely to suddenly find themselves outside the range/envelope of the capability of their weapon.

Since most home invaders, in non drug related break ins, are not wearing body armor, its limitations against a armored opponent are not a realistic drawback.

Chances of having to make a shot around a hostage, for your average home owner, are slim, so its lack of precision is less of an issue, though it does bring into question what happens if/when you miss.

And its large ammo selection capability make it a good choice in a rural setting, as its capable of dealing with almost any pest you're likely to encounter from rats/racoons/badgers with bird shot, to animals like polar and brown bears with slugs.




I think alot of the arguing/bickering has been because people have been reading it as "are shotguns out dated" and then jumping in to see guys like Kev saying, yep, they're being replaced/relegated to niche duty, and getting fired up, before they understand just what he's saying.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:41   #92
John Biltz
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I've moved mine out of the bedroom closet into the safe. An AR sits there now. I'm unwilling as I have aged to take it out and practice with it. If I'm not going to practice with it then its out of the line up. I will say this, for the money, you can't beat a good pump shotgun for home defense and the much more expensive AR is not that much better. If I did not have an AR for other reasons and were younger I don't think its worth the money to upgrade.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:11   #93
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My 18 inch tactical combat shotgun is NOT obsolete.

General Firearms Forum
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:42   #94
KalashniKEV
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
The issue I think we're getting into here, is the key word "tactical" in "tactical shotgun".


When guys like Kev, Murphy, myself, AirbornInfantry, etc talk about "tactical" we're generally talking about people who use the gun with the intent to kill someone. NOT guys hiding in the bedroom with a shotgun trained on the door waiting for the police to show up.

From this, I will also exclude, the non SWAT/CERT/whatever police use, as their use of a firearm, is also largely defensive, much like that of a civilian.

In the .mil/tactical useage, the shotgun has become the tertiary choice for the majority of users. Behind both the rifle, and the pistol.

There are some niche roles where it is still a front line choice, but it truly has become a niche weapon because it has some significant limitations, and what few advantages it does offer, are not enough to offset its drawbacks.

From a tactical standpoint, again, taking the weapon and going out looking for trouble, it has

A.) Very limited ammo capacity
B.) Very limited scope of engagement
C.) Longer reload time
D.) Possibility of having to perform a Select a XXX drill if you find yourself outside the engagement envelope of the round you have chambered/in the tube
E.) Relegated to headshot/hipshots against armored opponents
F.) Doesn't share ammo commonality with other team members
G.) Its lack of precision can make shots on partial obscured targets either impossible, or potentially harmful to captives/bystanders/others.


Its advantages

A.) Versatility in ammo choices/selection
B.) Ability to fire LL gives you a escalation of force not provide by most other platforms

In the end, you can argue till you're blue in the face if you don't agree with the facts I've posted, but the proof really is in the numbers. "Tactical Shotguns" are, in ever increasing numbers being relegated to the roles of LL employment, and Breaching duty. Aside from those roles, and some some niche duty, with units like boarding duties and, and prisoner control and similar, you just don't see them anymore.

With the new 40mm/37mm launchers, we're even seeing a move away from the shotgun in the LL platform, and dynamic entry/explosive entry is rapidly derringer those markets as well.

Also, you have to look no further than the Hollywood shoot out, to see why "Tactical Shotguns" are being replaced.
---------------------------------------------------------
THIS is the best post of the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Now on the civilian side/non "tactical" LEO/home defense etc

Its doing very well, and will never be replaced. Many people rely upon their shotguns to do "dual" duty of putting food on the table, and defending their homes from intruders/pets.
I agree that it's still probably the best defense against pets.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:15   #95
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Gasoline will be obsolete in automobiles long before a short barrel shotgun will be for HD where it's not necessarily about killing someone as it is about stopping the threat.

Last edited by Bob Hafler; 02-27-2013 at 09:19..
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:25   #96
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Are we talking the Spencer or the Winchester 66 ?

Springfield Trapdoor carbine?

Mosin Nagant carbine?
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:53   #97
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Much what Stick said.

We're all talking about two different categories here.

And the boy genius who said 5.56 was intended to wound......yeah, because the Army studies about increased hit potential and severely increased lethality with the 5.56 were all about wounding.....
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:32   #98
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Much what Stick said.

We're all talking about two different categories here.

And the boy genius who said 5.56 was intended to wound......yeah, because the Army studies about increased hit potential and severely increased lethality with the 5.56 were all about wounding.....
If you look at the history of the round you will find that after General LeMay shot the famous watermelon, thus proving the rifle and caliber's suitability for Air Force security personnel, the weapon was picked up by Special forces, and soon the Army s a whole to be used in jungle conditions, on full auto, to increase HIT PROBABILITY. Since then many attempts have been made to put some ballistic lipstick on the round but it is still what it is.

More importantly to the discussion at hand is the fact that most of us are aware that there is no "perfect solution" nor is there a "perfect weapon, caliber or gauge" Circumstances vary as do individuals, there can be no doubt about the fairly impressive record the shotgun has racked up, to say it is not a viable, or effective choice and that it has been rendered obsolete seems well, disingenuous.
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:09   #99
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The Army conducted a study, the result of which was development of the 5.56mm, and downsizing the AR-10 (in 7.62 Nato) to the 5.56 to meet the requirement.

LeMay may have adopted it first, but the ARMY specifically asked for a small caliber, lightweight recoil weapon with increased lethality.

It was never designed to wound, the early Special Forces reports praised it's incredible lethality in the early twist barrels with guys who actually knew how to make hits, not just throw mags off on auto.
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:43   #100
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I keep loaded hanguns around the house. I keep AR's in the safe. The only long gun I keep ready to go is a 870 with OO buck.

If someone broke in and stole something It would be cheaper and easyer to replace a used 870 than a Colt 6920.

Name any other gun that can be used to shoot anything from flying birds to large game or SD with only a change in ammo.

I have never seen anyone shot clays with a AR but I have seen people shoot at 200 yards with slugs. Last summer I was shooting slugs at 80 yards and every round was in center mass.
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