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Old 02-26-2013, 08:00   #61
knotquiteawake
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For the average untrained unpracticed american I think the shotgun is still a great tool for home defense. The one I have is a Maverick 88 (same as the mossberg 500), it only cost $140 at the pawn show, and my wife can easily use it/point it/load it etc. While its not necessarily "point and shoot" it seems like it would be easier for her to use in a high stress situation then trying to use my glock or the .38 snub nose.
- Cheaper than a rifle
- Less training for basic proficiency

In a professional setting I just don't see it used as much. I know our local SWAT only uses them breaching and thats it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:12   #62
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I guess if you are mil and you are going from urban areas to clear buildings to open spaces where you may be engaged the M4 is the way to go. Is that the consensus among the GT "professionals"?

IMHO for a non-mil application, i.e. home defense a tactical shotgun is just right.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:53   #63
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Oh look here, another "Shotguns suck, ARs rule" thread. We haven't seen one of those in maybe an entire week.

Once again. Shotguns are not ARs. ARs are not Shotguns. A round of .223 i not going to have the one shot stopping power inside 50 yards that a round of 00 buck will. A round of 00 buck is not going to do the job of a round of .223 at 100-300 yards. A handgun will do neither, but you'll be hard pressed to conceal an 18" barrel 12 gauge pump or a 16" AR with 30 round magazine inside your waistband. This isn't even considering the fact that shotguns are a lot more affordable, and easier to use than ARs, so you can defend a lot more homes with less time and money.

Different tools for different jobs, end of story.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:54   #64
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If you want to get technical, a 12 gauge shooting 00 buck is capable of firing more individual projectiles downrange than an AR-15 with a 30 round mag. One 2 3/4" 00 buck shell holds 9 pellets, so a tactical shotgun holding 7+1 has the capability of firing 72 individual 0.33" projectiles. For close quarters, this capability is unrivaled.

Yes, the tactical shotgun doesn't have much use for mid to long range, but when was it ever marketed as such?
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:59   #65
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Oh look here, another "Shotguns suck, ARs rule" thread........


It didn't start out that way.........people with smart *** comments turned it that way!
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:05   #66
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If you want to get technical, a 12 gauge shooting 00 buck is capable of firing more individual projectiles downrange than an AR-15 with a 30 round mag. One 2 3/4" 00 buck shell holds 9 pellets, so a tactical shotgun holding 7+1 has the capability of firing 72 individual 0.33" projectiles. For close quarters, this capability is unrivaled.

Yes, the tactical shotgun doesn't have much use for mid to long range, but when was it ever marketed as such?
And the follow up is, in what percentage of cases do we see people firing in self-defense at somebody 50 yards or more away? Very, very close to NONE and the small percentage we could find are probably going to be police in semi-offensive shootings (as in barricaded suspects and such).
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:27   #67
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It didn't start out that way.........people with smart *** comments turned it that way!



Well "Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?" is a pretty stupid question.

.....about as stupid as defending the inside of your house with an AR!
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:53   #68
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Oh look here, another "Shotguns suck, ARs rule" thread. We haven't seen one of those in maybe an entire week.

Once again. Shotguns are not ARs. ARs are not Shotguns. A round of .223 i not going to have the one shot stopping power inside 50 yards that a round of 00 buck will. A round of 00 buck is not going to do the job of a round of .223 at 100-300 yards. A handgun will do neither, but you'll be hard pressed to conceal an 18" barrel 12 gauge pump or a 16" AR with 30 round magazine inside your waistband. This isn't even considering the fact that shotguns are a lot more affordable, and easier to use than ARs, so you can defend a lot more homes with less time and money.

Different tools for different jobs, end of story.
HEY MR. SMARTA**, where do you think logic and rational thought is going to get you on the internet?

You think you can just walk into a thread full of polarized internet commandos and bring everything to a halt with your Jedi mind tricks? You come in here like Steven Seagal tying up everyone' argument with a simple intellectual wrist twist of logic. That kind of thing doesn't fly on the internet Mister. We are here to pointlessly argue against anything that resembles good old-fashioned logic and common sense. Your kind of thinking is not wanted in this day and age, NOW KEEP IT TO YOURELF

DIS IS DA INTERWEBS!!!!!

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:13   #69
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Guns are all tools fit for their specific situation. They're not obsolete.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:16   #70
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NO! Any of you that think they are obsolete are welcome to send yours my way. I will put them to good use.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:52   #71
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I love shotguns, but use them for sporting and hunting purposes, not self defense. I find long guns to be to unwieldy for me indoors and prefer a pistol. Outdoors where extended range is a concern, I choose a rifle. I personally have no place for a HD shotgun, but that doesn't mean no one does.
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Old 02-26-2013, 13:24   #72
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Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
I don't know about in Canada, but it's not "obsolete" here in the US. (I only mention Canada as the OP listed his location as being in that country)

The Patrol Rifle/Carbine has a different role in civilian LE application than the Shotgun, for the most part.

The pistol-caliber carbine/subguns have been increasingly eclipsed by the increasingly shorter and handier (and more powerful) rifle-caliber carbines.

The Shotgun, however, remains a viable LE weapon within its tactical application. As a firearms instructor/trainer of some experience, I continued to respect its capabilities throughout my career. I continued to carry one in my plainclothes car until my retirement.

Where I feel the shotgun is somewhat "losing ground" is from the perspective of seemingly having less good training being made available.

When you see a lot of Patrol/Urban/Tactical/Etc rifle & carbine training being offered, but increasingly less shotgun training, it's not surprising that the shotgun is being given less attention. My concern would be that this may someday prove to be detrimental to the folks who might find themselves better served using a shotgun in some tactical situations.

I remember having a conversation about this with a good friend who has been on SWAT for many years. He's a primary trainer for his teams and an excellent instructor for rifle/carbine/M4 & 1911. He's also a designated precision rifle/sniper, using different caliber rifles (including .50 BMG).

Anyway, when this subject came up one afternoon, he didn't see the difficulty in arriving at an answer. He said that when it's his turn to be leading Entry, he wants the short-barreled 12 ga shotgun (and not for breaching). I was disinclined to disagree with him.

For a citizen/subject of another country looking at how US civilian LE might have differing opinions and preferences about this sort of thing, remember that we're back up to about 900,000 active cops in the US, and more than 17,000 state/local LE agencies. That offers the potential for some differing opinions.

I don't think that number counts reserve/volunteer officers with peace officer status of varying capacity (some are on-duty only and some have 24/7/365 status), but I haven't looked at the latest breakdown of how the numbers were tallied.

Then there's the experience and opinions of all the retired cops, as well as the private citizens who may have acquired experience and training.

Then there's all the active/retired military, and their varied experience and training which has influenced their opinions and personal preferences. (There's naturally some overlap of active/reserve/retired/former military to be found among working LE, of course.)
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Old 02-26-2013, 13:26   #73
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If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
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Old 02-26-2013, 14:46   #74
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Get da banana klip!
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:49   #75
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If ..., just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo.....
Emptying a magazine from the condo rooftop sounds to me as if it may be a great tactic on an Aleppo condo rooftop but might have some slight potential legal repercussions where there is still the rule of law.
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:51   #76
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obsolete? not by any stretch.
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:56   #77
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NO. not obsolete. Still a very viable tool.
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Old 02-26-2013, 17:47   #78
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If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area thatís urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if thereís ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoeverís coming in is not going. You donít need a shotgun. Itís harder to load; itís harder to pump. And in fact, you donít need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
Lol. You sound like Uncle Joe Stalin and only a little bit like the Dope from Delaware.
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Old 02-26-2013, 19:07   #79
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You are talking abut two different types of weapons. The shotgun is a defensive weapon. The AR is an assault type weapon. Yes I know it isn't full auto or burst fire, that is the only difference between the M16.

The 5.56 was designed to hurt people not kill them. The idea was that it takes more troops to take care of a wounded man than it did a dead one. The wounded man is taken out of the fight and he has to be taken care of.

If it was about killing troops they would have stayed with the 308. All so you get to carry more ammo because of its light weight.

On a side note. Some in the know claim that because of the AR and its spray and pray manner that is the reason in the Vietnam war we used five times the ammo to kill a man as was used in World War 2. Did they have better rifle men then or better rifles. I would say they had better rifles. I know they had more power.

The shotgun takes its birth back to the days of the blunder bust. It was effective then and it still is.

At 20' down the hall from a bad guy you cut loose with a 12 gage number 4 buck out of a short cylinder bore barreled shot gun the bad guy is going to have a very bad day. At that point the pattern is about 2' the hallway is 4' or less. With two shots you have hit the bad guy many times.

With the AR you pull the trigger twice and you may get two hits. If not then you have two bullets running at around 3000 fps running a muck.

The shotgun is a great weapon. It works well in the home and around the house. The AR is what it was built to be and under powered rifle with to light of a bullet to do any thing well.

Don't get me wrong I like shooting the 5.56 it is good fun. If I need a rifle I want one that has stopping power like the 308 or 358, not a mouse gun.

Yes I know the 5.56 can on one hand go through any thing then on the next hand it can't go through drywall it is safer than a shotgun. The fan boy stuff a lot of you come up with over the AR is just bull.

Why do you think so many people are wild catting calibers for the AR? They are looking for a round that makes it a better killing rife.

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Old 02-26-2013, 19:19   #80
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There is no panacea. My home defense guns are handguns because I live in a town and want to have them on me if I need them. I keep a rifle in the safe with a couple of loaded magazines in case something happens up town or in the neighborhood and I feel I can make a positive impact without endangering anyone. A shotgun does nothing for me. I can't carry it in my cargo pocket like my G26 or on my belt under a shirt or jacket, but anything outside the range of a handgun is also outside the range of a shotgun with buckshot since I can't keep the pattern on the target. Some pellets are going to go stray from a load or OO or OOO if someone is 30+ yards away. I shoot my G26 or 1911 well enough that at that range I feel I am unlikely to miss a stationary man sized target with either.

If I lived in the country where the neighbors were a quarter mile away the long gun would be a shotgun. Either a 12 gauge pump like an 870 or 500 or a hammerless coach gun. (Right now I am shotgunless except for a 16ga single shot and a family heirloom quail gun.)

I don't drive my wife's car in a foot of snow and I don't drive my Jeep on vacation road trips of a couple of hundred miles either; seems kind of common sensical to use common sense in picking one's tools rather than an emotional attachment or aversion.
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