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Old 02-25-2013, 13:29   #41
MrMurphy
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I look at shotguns just like SMGs (which were designed to fill a similar combat role).

Inside their niche, they're awesome for many purposes.

Too many people try to then make it a one size fits all solution, which they're not awesome for.

MP5's are superb room clearing weapons against non-armored targets. Soon as you leave the building though, you're severely restricted in what you can do compared to any rifle. Same with a shotgun. Rearranging someone's rib cage at 5 yards? Sure, shotgun is fine. Hunting, etc, still fine.

Out where I am, wide open spaces and 500-1,000m wide open spaces are often the norm. I'd rather have something that clears more than 100m (barely)... Any 5.56 or 7.62, especially scoped, can handle out to 400+ if for some odd reason, a guy half a county over got REALLY pissed at me.
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Old 02-25-2013, 13:34   #42
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
A.) Probably more than just a "couple" years ago.

B.)If it wasn't, he probably didn't use it for much other than breaching. Thats pretty much what the .mil uses shotguns for. IIRC, we have a SGM here who works at the Army shotgun training school.
Uhm, not really

and

A couple of hadjis aren't around to argue the point.

but not my story to tell.

Still trying to figure out how a 'professional" who uses the shotgun is suddenly "unprofessional" because of that choice.
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Old 02-25-2013, 13:40   #43
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deleted - redundant

Last edited by WT; 03-24-2013 at 17:23..
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Old 02-25-2013, 13:45   #44
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Obsolete? Not hardly. When you consider that most clear shot distances in most homes are 20'or less. Even a 20 Ga. shotgun .with #3 buck is very effective.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:19   #45
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
When was the last time the fleet actually fired at a badguy that didn't involve a cruise missile or 5 inch deck gun?




Shotguns are great for a few limited roles.

Breaching, LL employment, and jobs that require possibly dealing with animals. (Rural LE, survival etc)


Aside from those scenario's though, the SG, is second to the rifle. Even a small caliber rifle, is orders of magnitude more effective than the SG as a weapon.
Nice bit of ignorance. The USN boards hundreds of vessels per year. Shotguns go in numbers on every boarding due to their CQB prowess.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:51   #46
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Shotguns in professional application are only used for breaching and non-lethal roles.
The Coast Guard requires me to qualify with a shotgun every six months. 00 buck, no breaching or less than lethal rounds. Some units use less than lethal rounds but it is not the exclusive reason for the shotgun being issued.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:07   #47
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Uhm, not really

and

A couple of hadjis aren't around to argue the point.

but not my story to tell.

Still trying to figure out how a 'professional" who uses the shotgun is suddenly "unprofessional" because of that choice.
Just because he shot a couple of people with it, hardly means it was the go to choice.

I know of atleast one soldier who killed a guy with a crash axe. Doesn't mean it was the go to choice. Simply what was available. I'm sure we can find a couple instances of the M107 or M2CG/M3 being used on people. But it hardly makes them the choice weapon.

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Nice bit of ignorance. The USN boards hundreds of vessels per year. Shotguns go in numbers on every boarding due to their CQB prowess.
I really don't think its their "prowess" that is the reason they use the shotgun.

Much more likely, that its because the navy has thousands of them, and they offer a low cost option that meets their requirement.


If shotguns really were the boarding weapon of choice, you wouldn't see the guys who specialize in taking down boats and airplanes, and other CQB places running SMG's and SBR's.



I'm not saying shotguns don't work. They do, they'll kill you dead.


But in professional use, they have been relegated to second teir employment, I.E. specialized uses. LL, Breaching etc.


As a home owner, as a rural LE, in some specialty roles, its still in use, and has a relevant niche. In the tactical role though, it is quite correct, they're fading, and fading fast.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:10   #48
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I live in a townhouse so to me it is a very practical tool for HD. I guess it all depends on your situation.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:18   #49
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Just because he shot a couple of people with it, hardly means it was the go to choice.

I know of atleast one soldier who killed a guy with a crash axe. Doesn't mean it was the go to choice. Simply what was available. I'm sure we can find a couple instances of the M107 or M2CG/M3 being used on people. But it hardly makes them the choice weapon.

The fact that it was a choice and it wasn't taken for breaching purposes wouldn't affect your professional opinion of the choice of such an amateur as a career SF NCO.

AW, heck, like I said, it isn't my story to tell, and I guess you are right, all these other people just don't know what they are doing. The final decision on the internetz is up to pros like you.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:38   #50
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The fact that it was a choice and it wasn't taken for breaching purposes wouldn't affect your professional opinion of the choice of such an amateur as a career SF NCO.

AW, heck, like I said, it isn't my story to tell, and I guess you are right, all these other people just don't know what they are doing. The final decision on the internetz is up to pros like you.


Claiming to know a guy who claims to have used a shotgun to kill some bad guys, is hardly conclusive evidence that tactical shotguns are not being relegated to second line duty.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:47   #51
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You are kidding, right?

Police officers aren't "Professional" right?

My best friend who carried an FN 12ga, among other shotguns, during a full career in Special Forces (Having retired just a couple of years go) wasn't a "professional" by your standards either I guess

Our agency uses them as does the local PD. they ALSO have patrol rifles(M4 variety) but I think agencies still sue them depending on what they have going on. Last time I looked they had the patrol rifle in the trunk in a bag and the shotgun in the front.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:55   #52
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You are kidding, right?

Police officers aren't "Professional" right?

My best friend who carried an FN 12ga, among other shotguns, during a full career in Special Forces (Having retired just a couple of years go) wasn't a "professional" by your standards either I guess
As many others have pointed out- you just won't see a shotgun in professional application for anything other than breaching or non-lethal use.

That's a fact, jack.

All the limpstroking in the world over "grandpa's scattergun" or "devastating superiority" is not going to overcome the limitations of the platform.

If an 18-series-dude carried an "FN 12 ga" (which would be odd) then I'd say he's quite lucky he didn't find himself in a situation that exceeded the capabilities of his chosen weapon.
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Old 02-25-2013, 16:41   #53
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I ran into a lot of shotguns, all mossbergs, in Iraq.
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Old 02-25-2013, 16:50   #54
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General Firearms Forum

Here piggy piggy
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Old 02-25-2013, 18:07   #55
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A shotgun has and always will have a roll in your basic battery of firearms. Rifle, shotgun, handgun.

So no, not obsolete. Whether it's a tacticool shotty or grandpa's game getter a shotgun is just another tool for a certain job.

Just ask Joe Biden.

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Old 02-25-2013, 18:09   #56
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Every time I had to go stand in the fog and watch the perimeter fence it wasn't an M4 the armorer handed me out the arms room window. It was #4 Buckshot and the launcher for it.
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Old 02-25-2013, 18:50   #57
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What worked well then still works well now.

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Old 02-25-2013, 21:18   #58
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I have to debunk the many generalizations in this post. And for the record - I'll keep it fair and balanced (NOT a Fox News reference...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
Shotguns are fun, as are revolvers, and they are still useful inside some rooms for home defense within pistol range, but I'd almost always prefer to grab just about any carbine: 7.62x39 AK, or .357 magnum lever action, or even 9mm carbine.
I'm all good with this - and the KEY phrase here is preference. Better to grab a Glock 19 you can use than 590 you can't.

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These all have increased effective range over a shotgun, not to mention greater pinpoint accuracy where every projectile has a lawyer attached, and you can choose ammo with various amounts of penetration if that is an issue.
This paragraph is so full of BS I don't know where to start...
#1 An increased effective range is only a benefit if increased range is called for. Where I live, a shot over 25 yards means you are shooting off your property. Again - what is the purpose of the weapon?
#2 pinpoint accuracy. I maintain that the NON-pinpoint accuracy of a pattern of buck is far more effective overall than a pinpoint vital miss. In any dynamic shooting situation pinpoint accuracy is also called luck. Shotgun easily wins here. Ask the local po po.
#3 You can choose WAY more types of ammo with a shotgun that have way more effectiveness at any range of penetration. This is just plain wrong, and as always - if it will penetrate a BG enough - it will over penetrate. And EVERY hi-vel rifle round will outdo almost all SG rounds for over penetration period.

That entire argument is utter and total fail.

Quote:
Local cops & swat teams choose 9mm carbines, making that politically correct here in liberalville.
I prefer 7.62x39 for just about everything else within self-defense range, but then I'm a bad guy anyway.
I'm not going to argue a 9mm Subgun indoors. (see HK avatar). A very good choice IMO. And the Police choose for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes they are good ones.


Quote:
I have the most fun with my SxS rabbit-eared Cimarron/TTN coachgun shooting cowboy action matches, competing against Winchester/Norinco model 97 pump guns. Quick reloading and quick shooting is stressed in this sport.
Now on this point, total agreement. Little coach gun ARE extremely fun.

Quote:
A cheap shotgun makes a better home defense weapon than a cheap rifle, and it's pretty easy to learn.
Yep
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:49   #59
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Not at all, I consider a shotgun set up exclusively for home defense an essential tool in my modest collection.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:36   #60
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In my very limited experience outside of the internet, it seems like a firearm is used somewhat more often without actually being fired as a threat for a behavior modification. In that type situation it would seem that a shotgun is every bit as functional as a number of other firearms.

And, at least in some urban police settings, shotguns still seem to enjoy some service. And probably will for the next few weeks.
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