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Old 02-25-2013, 14:47   #51
CBennett
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
You are kidding, right?

Police officers aren't "Professional" right?

My best friend who carried an FN 12ga, among other shotguns, during a full career in Special Forces (Having retired just a couple of years go) wasn't a "professional" by your standards either I guess

Our agency uses them as does the local PD. they ALSO have patrol rifles(M4 variety) but I think agencies still sue them depending on what they have going on. Last time I looked they had the patrol rifle in the trunk in a bag and the shotgun in the front.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:55   #52
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
You are kidding, right?

Police officers aren't "Professional" right?

My best friend who carried an FN 12ga, among other shotguns, during a full career in Special Forces (Having retired just a couple of years go) wasn't a "professional" by your standards either I guess
As many others have pointed out- you just won't see a shotgun in professional application for anything other than breaching or non-lethal use.

That's a fact, jack.

All the limpstroking in the world over "grandpa's scattergun" or "devastating superiority" is not going to overcome the limitations of the platform.

If an 18-series-dude carried an "FN 12 ga" (which would be odd) then I'd say he's quite lucky he didn't find himself in a situation that exceeded the capabilities of his chosen weapon.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:41   #53
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I ran into a lot of shotguns, all mossbergs, in Iraq.
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Old 02-25-2013, 15:50   #54
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General Firearms Forum

Here piggy piggy
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Old 02-25-2013, 17:07   #55
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A shotgun has and always will have a roll in your basic battery of firearms. Rifle, shotgun, handgun.

So no, not obsolete. Whether it's a tacticool shotty or grandpa's game getter a shotgun is just another tool for a certain job.

Just ask Joe Biden.

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Old 02-25-2013, 17:09   #56
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Every time I had to go stand in the fog and watch the perimeter fence it wasn't an M4 the armorer handed me out the arms room window. It was #4 Buckshot and the launcher for it.
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Old 02-25-2013, 17:50   #57
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:18   #58
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I have to debunk the many generalizations in this post. And for the record - I'll keep it fair and balanced (NOT a Fox News reference...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
Shotguns are fun, as are revolvers, and they are still useful inside some rooms for home defense within pistol range, but I'd almost always prefer to grab just about any carbine: 7.62x39 AK, or .357 magnum lever action, or even 9mm carbine.
I'm all good with this - and the KEY phrase here is preference. Better to grab a Glock 19 you can use than 590 you can't.

Quote:
These all have increased effective range over a shotgun, not to mention greater pinpoint accuracy where every projectile has a lawyer attached, and you can choose ammo with various amounts of penetration if that is an issue.
This paragraph is so full of BS I don't know where to start...
#1 An increased effective range is only a benefit if increased range is called for. Where I live, a shot over 25 yards means you are shooting off your property. Again - what is the purpose of the weapon?
#2 pinpoint accuracy. I maintain that the NON-pinpoint accuracy of a pattern of buck is far more effective overall than a pinpoint vital miss. In any dynamic shooting situation pinpoint accuracy is also called luck. Shotgun easily wins here. Ask the local po po.
#3 You can choose WAY more types of ammo with a shotgun that have way more effectiveness at any range of penetration. This is just plain wrong, and as always - if it will penetrate a BG enough - it will over penetrate. And EVERY hi-vel rifle round will outdo almost all SG rounds for over penetration period.

That entire argument is utter and total fail.

Quote:
Local cops & swat teams choose 9mm carbines, making that politically correct here in liberalville.
I prefer 7.62x39 for just about everything else within self-defense range, but then I'm a bad guy anyway.
I'm not going to argue a 9mm Subgun indoors. (see HK avatar). A very good choice IMO. And the Police choose for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes they are good ones.


Quote:
I have the most fun with my SxS rabbit-eared Cimarron/TTN coachgun shooting cowboy action matches, competing against Winchester/Norinco model 97 pump guns. Quick reloading and quick shooting is stressed in this sport.
Now on this point, total agreement. Little coach gun ARE extremely fun.

Quote:
A cheap shotgun makes a better home defense weapon than a cheap rifle, and it's pretty easy to learn.
Yep
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:49   #59
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Not at all, I consider a shotgun set up exclusively for home defense an essential tool in my modest collection.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:36   #60
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In my very limited experience outside of the internet, it seems like a firearm is used somewhat more often without actually being fired as a threat for a behavior modification. In that type situation it would seem that a shotgun is every bit as functional as a number of other firearms.

And, at least in some urban police settings, shotguns still seem to enjoy some service. And probably will for the next few weeks.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:00   #61
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For the average untrained unpracticed american I think the shotgun is still a great tool for home defense. The one I have is a Maverick 88 (same as the mossberg 500), it only cost $140 at the pawn show, and my wife can easily use it/point it/load it etc. While its not necessarily "point and shoot" it seems like it would be easier for her to use in a high stress situation then trying to use my glock or the .38 snub nose.
- Cheaper than a rifle
- Less training for basic proficiency

In a professional setting I just don't see it used as much. I know our local SWAT only uses them breaching and thats it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:12   #62
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I guess if you are mil and you are going from urban areas to clear buildings to open spaces where you may be engaged the M4 is the way to go. Is that the consensus among the GT "professionals"?

IMHO for a non-mil application, i.e. home defense a tactical shotgun is just right.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:53   #63
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Oh look here, another "Shotguns suck, ARs rule" thread. We haven't seen one of those in maybe an entire week.

Once again. Shotguns are not ARs. ARs are not Shotguns. A round of .223 i not going to have the one shot stopping power inside 50 yards that a round of 00 buck will. A round of 00 buck is not going to do the job of a round of .223 at 100-300 yards. A handgun will do neither, but you'll be hard pressed to conceal an 18" barrel 12 gauge pump or a 16" AR with 30 round magazine inside your waistband. This isn't even considering the fact that shotguns are a lot more affordable, and easier to use than ARs, so you can defend a lot more homes with less time and money.

Different tools for different jobs, end of story.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:54   #64
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If you want to get technical, a 12 gauge shooting 00 buck is capable of firing more individual projectiles downrange than an AR-15 with a 30 round mag. One 2 3/4" 00 buck shell holds 9 pellets, so a tactical shotgun holding 7+1 has the capability of firing 72 individual 0.33" projectiles. For close quarters, this capability is unrivaled.

Yes, the tactical shotgun doesn't have much use for mid to long range, but when was it ever marketed as such?
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:59   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnieD View Post
Oh look here, another "Shotguns suck, ARs rule" thread........


It didn't start out that way.........people with smart *** comments turned it that way!
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:05   #66
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Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
If you want to get technical, a 12 gauge shooting 00 buck is capable of firing more individual projectiles downrange than an AR-15 with a 30 round mag. One 2 3/4" 00 buck shell holds 9 pellets, so a tactical shotgun holding 7+1 has the capability of firing 72 individual 0.33" projectiles. For close quarters, this capability is unrivaled.

Yes, the tactical shotgun doesn't have much use for mid to long range, but when was it ever marketed as such?
And the follow up is, in what percentage of cases do we see people firing in self-defense at somebody 50 yards or more away? Very, very close to NONE and the small percentage we could find are probably going to be police in semi-offensive shootings (as in barricaded suspects and such).
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:27   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
It didn't start out that way.........people with smart *** comments turned it that way!



Well "Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?" is a pretty stupid question.

.....about as stupid as defending the inside of your house with an AR!
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:53   #68
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Oh look here, another "Shotguns suck, ARs rule" thread. We haven't seen one of those in maybe an entire week.

Once again. Shotguns are not ARs. ARs are not Shotguns. A round of .223 i not going to have the one shot stopping power inside 50 yards that a round of 00 buck will. A round of 00 buck is not going to do the job of a round of .223 at 100-300 yards. A handgun will do neither, but you'll be hard pressed to conceal an 18" barrel 12 gauge pump or a 16" AR with 30 round magazine inside your waistband. This isn't even considering the fact that shotguns are a lot more affordable, and easier to use than ARs, so you can defend a lot more homes with less time and money.

Different tools for different jobs, end of story.
HEY MR. SMARTA**, where do you think logic and rational thought is going to get you on the internet?

You think you can just walk into a thread full of polarized internet commandos and bring everything to a halt with your Jedi mind tricks? You come in here like Steven Seagal tying up everyone' argument with a simple intellectual wrist twist of logic. That kind of thing doesn't fly on the internet Mister. We are here to pointlessly argue against anything that resembles good old-fashioned logic and common sense. Your kind of thinking is not wanted in this day and age, NOW KEEP IT TO YOURELF

DIS IS DA INTERWEBS!!!!!

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:13   #69
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Guns are all tools fit for their specific situation. They're not obsolete.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:16   #70
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NO! Any of you that think they are obsolete are welcome to send yours my way. I will put them to good use.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:52   #71
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I love shotguns, but use them for sporting and hunting purposes, not self defense. I find long guns to be to unwieldy for me indoors and prefer a pistol. Outdoors where extended range is a concern, I choose a rifle. I personally have no place for a HD shotgun, but that doesn't mean no one does.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:24   #72
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Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
I don't know about in Canada, but it's not "obsolete" here in the US. (I only mention Canada as the OP listed his location as being in that country)

The Patrol Rifle/Carbine has a different role in civilian LE application than the Shotgun, for the most part.

The pistol-caliber carbine/subguns have been increasingly eclipsed by the increasingly shorter and handier (and more powerful) rifle-caliber carbines.

The Shotgun, however, remains a viable LE weapon within its tactical application. As a firearms instructor/trainer of some experience, I continued to respect its capabilities throughout my career. I continued to carry one in my plainclothes car until my retirement.

Where I feel the shotgun is somewhat "losing ground" is from the perspective of seemingly having less good training being made available.

When you see a lot of Patrol/Urban/Tactical/Etc rifle & carbine training being offered, but increasingly less shotgun training, it's not surprising that the shotgun is being given less attention. My concern would be that this may someday prove to be detrimental to the folks who might find themselves better served using a shotgun in some tactical situations.

I remember having a conversation about this with a good friend who has been on SWAT for many years. He's a primary trainer for his teams and an excellent instructor for rifle/carbine/M4 & 1911. He's also a designated precision rifle/sniper, using different caliber rifles (including .50 BMG).

Anyway, when this subject came up one afternoon, he didn't see the difficulty in arriving at an answer. He said that when it's his turn to be leading Entry, he wants the short-barreled 12 ga shotgun (and not for breaching). I was disinclined to disagree with him.

For a citizen/subject of another country looking at how US civilian LE might have differing opinions and preferences about this sort of thing, remember that we're back up to about 900,000 active cops in the US, and more than 17,000 state/local LE agencies. That offers the potential for some differing opinions.

I don't think that number counts reserve/volunteer officers with peace officer status of varying capacity (some are on-duty only and some have 24/7/365 status), but I haven't looked at the latest breakdown of how the numbers were tallied.

Then there's the experience and opinions of all the retired cops, as well as the private citizens who may have acquired experience and training.

Then there's all the active/retired military, and their varied experience and training which has influenced their opinions and personal preferences. (There's naturally some overlap of active/reserve/retired/former military to be found among working LE, of course.)
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Last edited by fastbolt; 02-26-2013 at 12:26..
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:26   #73
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If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
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Old 02-26-2013, 13:46   #74
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Get da banana klip!
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Old 02-26-2013, 15:49   #75
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If ..., just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo.....
Emptying a magazine from the condo rooftop sounds to me as if it may be a great tactic on an Aleppo condo rooftop but might have some slight potential legal repercussions where there is still the rule of law.
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