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Old 02-25-2013, 04:23   #26
byf43
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"Tactical". "Tactical"???

Anything can be used "tactically". From Grand-Pa's old Superposed (or Purdy!), to an 870, to Mossberg, to a butcher knife, to whatever.

I hate that _ _ _ _ed term "tactical" almost as much as I hate that _ _ _ _ed term, "shottie"!!!!
("Shottie!" Sounds like junior high school jargon for, "I gotta make my shotgun sound 'so cool', dude!" -or- "I'm frum da hood, an' gotta sound like it, mahn.") Give me a freakin' break. Sheesh.

No, my beloved 870s don't have 20 or 30 round magazines, nor do they have a laser or flashlight hanging off of them.
(And none of them shoot that darned 'Rooskie' round, the 7.62x39!)

Heck, not one of my 870s have a sidesaddle attached to them!!!!

Two of them have extended magazine tubes (+2), and one of them is stuffed full of 00B, for taking care of what may intrude our home, at whatever time - day or night.

At close range. . . . where these shotguns are intended to be used, there isn't anything as devastating. Well, maybe a hand grenade, but, I don't particularly care to use one inside my house. Ha!
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Last edited by byf43; 02-25-2013 at 04:26..
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:42   #27
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Mine would still be my primary house defense weapon. furthest at any point in my house I shoot is around 25' im thinking a Remington 870 will throw a good pattern of buck(OO) or #4 buck) at that range from memory. If I were out in the "woods" out side town I may go with the AK74 but not where I live.

maybe im nuts or im not looking at this right or just plain wrong. But the way I see this is. At 25' or less when I pull the trigger and as long as I do my part and actually hit what im aiming at...ive put as much lead/holes into a target as a M4 would in 3 quick 3 round bursts(9 holes/9 pellets) in one pull of the trigger in my Shotgun. Now I realize I dont have the CAPACITY with my shotgun as a 30 round mag or even a 15 round mag..but I can combat reload pretty decently and being in town hope to get everyone to a bedroom area till the cavalry arrives. and at that point if its really going badly the "safe room" has all the other stuff I use for HD in it also so then its all available.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:05   #28
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Originally Posted by Seriously? View Post
Ok for certain applications, but mostly obsolete.


1. Carbines have been around longer than "tactical" shotguns, so why would they just now become superior?

2. The distance from which people will try to kill you hasn't changed.

3. You guys read too many BS gun magazines and listen to too many mall ninjas on youtube.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:15   #29
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Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?
No. Another valuable tool one should have available for the proper application of force, near or far with the proper respective loads.

YMMV
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:17   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post


1. Carbines have been around longer than "tactical" shotguns, so why would they just now become superior?

2. The distance from which people will try to kill you hasn't changed.

3. You guys read too many BS gun magazines and listen to too many mall ninjas on youtube.
Don't you know that these hard mofos are always going up against bad guys who dressed up like Rainbow Six operators?
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:23   #31
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Don't you know that these hard mofos are always going up against bad guys who dressed up like Rainbow Six operators?
Come clean my monitor!
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:47   #32
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Shotguns in professional application are only used for breaching and non-lethal roles.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:03   #33
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Yes tactical shotguns are obsolete, so are AR's, because Joe Biden says a double barrel will do just fine.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:22   #34
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Not obsolete! HD you cannot beat a good tactical shotgun mine is a Mossberg 590A1 I can get 8 in tube one in chamber and 4 in speedfeed stock. What more could you want or need plus all the flexibility of the various shotgun shells you can buy from 00 buck to bird shot #8 to slugs. I also have a AR for the times when range may be greater.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:54   #35
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Shotguns in professional application are only used for breaching and non-lethal roles.
Only by landlubbers. The fleet loves them some shotguns.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:29   #36
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I keep my DD M4 under my bed, and my Mossberg 590 next to my bed..... Haha, is that wrong?

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Old 02-25-2013, 11:35   #37
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Shotguns in professional application are only used for breaching and non-lethal roles.
Interesting. For the eleven years I have had an 870 issued, I have yet to see breaching in a qual course. Same with less-lethals. We have gone through a lot of 00 and slugs, though. Breaching rams work fine.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:40   #38
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Shotguns in professional application are only used for breaching and non-lethal roles.
You are kidding, right?

Police officers aren't "Professional" right?

My best friend who carried an FN 12ga, among other shotguns, during a full career in Special Forces (Having retired just a couple of years go) wasn't a "professional" by your standards either I guess
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:46   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boats View Post
Only by landlubbers. The fleet loves them some shotguns.


When was the last time the fleet actually fired at a badguy that didn't involve a cruise missile or 5 inch deck gun?




Shotguns are great for a few limited roles.

Breaching, LL employment, and jobs that require possibly dealing with animals. (Rural LE, survival etc)


Aside from those scenario's though, the SG, is second to the rifle. Even a small caliber rifle, is orders of magnitude more effective than the SG as a weapon.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:49   #40
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You are kidding, right?

Police officers aren't "Professional" right?

My best friend who carried an FN 12ga, among other shotguns, during a full career in Special Forces (Having retired just a couple of years go) wasn't a "professional" by your standards either I guess


A.) Probably more than just a "couple" years ago.

B.)If it wasn't, he probably didn't use it for much other than breaching. Thats pretty much what the .mil uses shotguns for. IIRC, we have a SGM here who works at the Army shotgun training school.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:29   #41
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I look at shotguns just like SMGs (which were designed to fill a similar combat role).

Inside their niche, they're awesome for many purposes.

Too many people try to then make it a one size fits all solution, which they're not awesome for.

MP5's are superb room clearing weapons against non-armored targets. Soon as you leave the building though, you're severely restricted in what you can do compared to any rifle. Same with a shotgun. Rearranging someone's rib cage at 5 yards? Sure, shotgun is fine. Hunting, etc, still fine.

Out where I am, wide open spaces and 500-1,000m wide open spaces are often the norm. I'd rather have something that clears more than 100m (barely)... Any 5.56 or 7.62, especially scoped, can handle out to 400+ if for some odd reason, a guy half a county over got REALLY pissed at me.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:34   #42
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A.) Probably more than just a "couple" years ago.

B.)If it wasn't, he probably didn't use it for much other than breaching. Thats pretty much what the .mil uses shotguns for. IIRC, we have a SGM here who works at the Army shotgun training school.
Uhm, not really

and

A couple of hadjis aren't around to argue the point.

but not my story to tell.

Still trying to figure out how a 'professional" who uses the shotgun is suddenly "unprofessional" because of that choice.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:40   #43
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deleted - redundant

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:45   #44
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Obsolete? Not hardly. When you consider that most clear shot distances in most homes are 20'or less. Even a 20 Ga. shotgun .with #3 buck is very effective.
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Old 02-25-2013, 13:19   #45
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When was the last time the fleet actually fired at a badguy that didn't involve a cruise missile or 5 inch deck gun?




Shotguns are great for a few limited roles.

Breaching, LL employment, and jobs that require possibly dealing with animals. (Rural LE, survival etc)


Aside from those scenario's though, the SG, is second to the rifle. Even a small caliber rifle, is orders of magnitude more effective than the SG as a weapon.
Nice bit of ignorance. The USN boards hundreds of vessels per year. Shotguns go in numbers on every boarding due to their CQB prowess.
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Old 02-25-2013, 13:51   #46
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Shotguns in professional application are only used for breaching and non-lethal roles.
The Coast Guard requires me to qualify with a shotgun every six months. 00 buck, no breaching or less than lethal rounds. Some units use less than lethal rounds but it is not the exclusive reason for the shotgun being issued.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:07   #47
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Uhm, not really

and

A couple of hadjis aren't around to argue the point.

but not my story to tell.

Still trying to figure out how a 'professional" who uses the shotgun is suddenly "unprofessional" because of that choice.
Just because he shot a couple of people with it, hardly means it was the go to choice.

I know of atleast one soldier who killed a guy with a crash axe. Doesn't mean it was the go to choice. Simply what was available. I'm sure we can find a couple instances of the M107 or M2CG/M3 being used on people. But it hardly makes them the choice weapon.

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Nice bit of ignorance. The USN boards hundreds of vessels per year. Shotguns go in numbers on every boarding due to their CQB prowess.
I really don't think its their "prowess" that is the reason they use the shotgun.

Much more likely, that its because the navy has thousands of them, and they offer a low cost option that meets their requirement.


If shotguns really were the boarding weapon of choice, you wouldn't see the guys who specialize in taking down boats and airplanes, and other CQB places running SMG's and SBR's.



I'm not saying shotguns don't work. They do, they'll kill you dead.


But in professional use, they have been relegated to second teir employment, I.E. specialized uses. LL, Breaching etc.


As a home owner, as a rural LE, in some specialty roles, its still in use, and has a relevant niche. In the tactical role though, it is quite correct, they're fading, and fading fast.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:10   #48
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I live in a townhouse so to me it is a very practical tool for HD. I guess it all depends on your situation.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:18   #49
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Just because he shot a couple of people with it, hardly means it was the go to choice.

I know of atleast one soldier who killed a guy with a crash axe. Doesn't mean it was the go to choice. Simply what was available. I'm sure we can find a couple instances of the M107 or M2CG/M3 being used on people. But it hardly makes them the choice weapon.

The fact that it was a choice and it wasn't taken for breaching purposes wouldn't affect your professional opinion of the choice of such an amateur as a career SF NCO.

AW, heck, like I said, it isn't my story to tell, and I guess you are right, all these other people just don't know what they are doing. The final decision on the internetz is up to pros like you.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:38   #50
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The fact that it was a choice and it wasn't taken for breaching purposes wouldn't affect your professional opinion of the choice of such an amateur as a career SF NCO.

AW, heck, like I said, it isn't my story to tell, and I guess you are right, all these other people just don't know what they are doing. The final decision on the internetz is up to pros like you.


Claiming to know a guy who claims to have used a shotgun to kill some bad guys, is hardly conclusive evidence that tactical shotguns are not being relegated to second line duty.
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