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Old 03-03-2013, 11:18   #51
Emmett4glock
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Originally Posted by Bluebearbevis View Post
Interesting read Emmett,

And I agree 100% on the preparedness, but where is the comparison of attacks with gun vs. attacks with no gun? At the beginning the article says, "...analyzed 269 incidents of close-quarter bear-human conflict in Alaska between 1883 and 2009 in which a firearm was involved." How many non carriers simply got eaten up and aren't in the statistics at all? How many dead human remains were found in the wilderness w/ gun also recovered vs. w/o gun also recovered? Think I'll stay on target!
Richard
I found the following bolded remarks interesting:
While Smith said his data set was not perfect, it did tease out some surprising findings. For instance, handguns slightly outperformed long guns, resulting in a positive outcome -- meaning the gun stopped the bear's aggression -- 84 percent of the time versus 76 percent.

"That's surprising because some believe that handguns have no place in bear safety," Smith said. "But they are much more maneuverable and carried more accessibly. A majority of bears go to extreme lengths to avoid people. When an encounter occurs, it is in close quarters and poor visibility. They are on their back shooting the bear in the mouth."

Based on these two statements, there may be a slight advantage to carrying a handgun, but only in terms of maneuverability.
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Old 03-03-2013, 15:18   #52
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If I see one more dingbat with the "Most Bears, or Cougars, or whatever" line I am going to B-slap them.

I am not concerned with "most" (unless I am actively hunting them) after all "Most people" don't go to a mall to shoot the place up, most people crossing the street don't take detour to perform an armed carjacking. Most people don't have meth-fueled road-rage incidents. I ain't concerned about "Most" of anything. I am concerned about the one in the minority that wants to shoot, stab, bludgeon or eat me.

When it comes to wildlife at close range, when they are dangerous, I like penetration and bone smashing. Given the angle they attack at and the target presented at that moment someone's results from a successful ambush of the animal at fifty yards with a perfect broadside shot with a scoped rifle from a blind, do not mean squat to me.

OK there is my daily allowance of grouchy, I'm Muuuuuch better now.
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Old 03-03-2013, 15:37   #53
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If I see one more dingbat with the "Most Bears, or Cougars, or whatever" line I am going to B-slap them.

I am not concerned with "most" (unless I am actively hunting them) after all "Most people" don't go to a mall to shoot the place up, most people crossing the street don't take detour to perform an armed carjacking. Most people don't have meth-fueled road-rage incidents. I ain't concerned about "Most" of anything. I am concerned about the one in the minority that wants to shoot, stab, bludgeon or eat me.

When it comes to wildlife at close range, when they are dangerous, I like penetration and bone smashing. Given the angle they attack at and the target presented at that moment someone's results from a successful ambush of the animal at fifty yards with a perfect broadside shot with a scoped rifle from a blind, do not mean squat to me.


OK there is my daily allowance of grouchy, I'm Muuuuuch better now.









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Old 03-03-2013, 18:42   #54
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NO way !






CM
Hey stop using my screenz name.

I swear that when I hear person mentioning a 10mm is the same as 41magnum. I begin to wonder if they ever even see a 4mag or shot a 41mag.

Last edited by noway; 03-03-2013 at 18:43..
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:25   #55
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Exactly countrygun and CanyonMan,

I'm not going to be hunting bears. In fact, I'd prefer to avoid them all together, unless they're up on a ridge somewhere and I can shoot them from a distance with my digital camera. However, in the unlikely event that I'm in the situation where "They are on their back shooting the bear in the mouth." Then I think I'll stick with the .44.

Thanks,
Richard
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:43   #56
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exactly the reason I bought a Glock 20 10mm IMO it can't be beaten GREAT pistol for most hiking situation We only have black bear here. I love the power & range of my G20
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:45   #57
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NO way
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Originally Posted by noway View Post
Hey stop using my screenz name.

I swear that when I hear person mentioning a 10mm is the same as 41magnum. I begin to wonder if they ever even see a 44mag or shot a 41mag.




Hey amigo. You just need to change your name to: some way, this way, that way, or as my kids say, yes way !




Yep my friend I agree with ya. The 41 mag trumps the 10mm hands down in 'versitility alone'. When they ever do have a bear on top of them, (which more than likely will never happen) the 10mm will not give them a warm and fuzzy feeling ! haha. In fact, the only thing that will give a guy a warm and fuzzy feeling in that senerio, is the hair and fat and breath on the bear !

But, I would rather (as hand guns go) have my 44's/45LC's, or 454, etc, than a semi auto anything !


Hey man write me sometime or give me a call. We have'nt had a good chew the fat session in a while...




Stay safe out there amigo !











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Last edited by CanyonMan; 03-04-2013 at 09:47..
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:59   #58
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When was the last time someone in CO had to fend off a charging moose, or even a bear? You'd have a much higher liklihood of dealing with a threat from a 2 legged 'predator'.

I'd look to a lighter, easier to carry 40 s&w handgun. If it's not your day & the angry bear does choose to show up, it's better than nothing.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:35   #59
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Thanks for the input sourdough44,

The vote appears tied between a 10mm and .44 mag., even from the first reply by Chutethemall.

Most of my remote camping and currently all of my living is done here in Colorado and the 10mm appears adequate for situations I am unlikely to encounter.

However, because I will be returning to Glacier Nat'l Park this August (highest grizzly pop. lower 48), because I can only afford one pre-trip gun, and other things considered, I think my first handgun will be a .44 mag. revolver. Armed with my "Idiots Guide to Used Revolver Purchase" provided previously by CM and other information on "wear and tear to be wary of" gleaned from the internet, I am headed to local Pawn Shops and the Tanner Gun Show.

Richard
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:20   #60
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Thanks for the input sourdough44,

The vote appears tied between a 10mm and .44 mag., even from the first reply by Chutethemall.

Most of my remote camping and currently all of my living is done here in Colorado and the 10mm appears adequate for situations I am unlikely to encounter.

However, because I will be returning to Glacier Nat'l Park this August (highest grizzly pop. lower 48), because I can only afford one pre-trip gun, and other things considered, I think my first handgun will be a .44 mag. revolver. Armed with my "Idiots Guide to Used Revolver Purchase" provided previously by CM and other information on "wear and tear to be wary of" gleaned from the internet, I am headed to local Pawn Shops and the Tanner Gun Show.

Richard
Well, you won't regret it.

You can only load 10mm up so far... but it's easy to load .44 mag down.

I wouldn't dismiss a Blackhawk in .45 Colt. With the strength of the frame, you can load 200 grain cowboy loads going 750 fps to 300 grain bullets doing over 1,000 fps. A personal favorite is a 250 grain XTP going 1,200 (and that's leaving some room in the reloading data). Just don't try those loads in a Colt Single Action Army or a clone.

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Old 03-05-2013, 11:54   #61
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exactly the reason I bought a Glock 20 10mm IMO it can't be beaten GREAT pistol for most hiking situation We only have black bear here. I love the power & range of my G20
Just checking. You are aware black bears are responsible for the most attacks, statistically speaking?
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Old 03-05-2013, 19:48   #62
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Well, you won't regret it.

You can only load 10mm up so far... but it's easy to load .44 mag down.

I wouldn't dismiss a Blackhawk in .45 Colt. With the strength of the frame, you can load 200 grain cowboy loads going 750 fps to 300 grain bullets doing over 1,000 fps. A personal favorite is a 250 grain XTP going 1,200 (and that's leaving some room in the reloading data). Just don't try those loads in a Colt Single Action Army or a clone.




I love that you can load a 10mm so far but you can always down low a 44mag. Same for 45colt and both of the latter would be more suited for a bear that's trying to kill you.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:27   #63
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Here's a used one for sale locally.

http://cologunmarket.com/firearms/pr...w-29-3-4_i2322
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Old 03-06-2013, 20:58   #64
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Right on CanyonMan,

Even after I got your name wrong,
Trust me he has been called worse.

Since you are looking for a one gun combination for all of your outdoor needs there is no better all round outdoorsman handgun than a 4 inch Smith & Wesson 44 Magnum. Elmer Keith carried the 4 inch and stated that for a belt gun and ease of carry there was no need to go below 4 inches. The key here is a good high quality belt and high quality holster. Carried in a proper holster you won't notice the weight. You also want a rig that you can draw quickly. Check out the Cattleman by Simply Rugged. They also make a great pancake holster that rides the gun up higher and is still easy to draw quickly. Don't even think about carrying hollow points or even softpoints. With the 44 it is hardcast all the way. I would suggest the low recoil 250 grain Buffalo Bore Keith. Double Tap also loads a similar load. No real need to go with the heavyweights in the S&W. For recoil control a good set of grips is important as well. My new favorite is the Pachmayr Grippers. A good 4 inch double action 357 Magnum properly loaded with hardcast would be a step down but still another good all round woods walking handgun. In fact I have found that a hot hardcast 200 grain 357 Magnum will out penetrate those heavy 10mm loads that some folks compare to the 41 Magnum.
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Old 03-06-2013, 22:10   #65
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Right on CanyonMan,

Even after I got your name wrong,
Trust me he has been called worse.

Since you are looking for a one gun combination for all of your outdoor needs there is no better all round outdoorsman handgun than a 4 inch Smith & Wesson 44 Magnum. Elmer Keith carried the 4 inch and stated that for a belt gun and ease of carry there was no need to go below 4 inches. The key here is a good high quality belt and high quality holster. Carried in a proper holster you won't notice the weight. You also want a rig that you can draw quickly. Check out the Cattleman by Simply Rugged. They also make a great pancake holster that rides the gun up higher and is still easy to draw quickly. Don't even think about carrying hollow points or even softpoints. With the 44 it is hardcast all the way. I would suggest the low recoil 250 grain Buffalo Bore Keith. Double Tap also loads a similar load. No real need to go with the heavyweights in the S&W. For recoil control a good set of grips is important as well. My new favorite is the Pachmayr Grippers. A good 4 inch double action 357 Magnum properly loaded with hardcast would be a step down but still another good all round woods walking handgun. In fact I have found that a hot hardcast 200 grain 357 Magnum will out penetrate those heavy 10mm loads that some folks compare to the 41 Magnum.
EXCELLENT.
I love it.

BTW a 200 gn .357 has a much higher BC and SD than even a 200 gn 10mm bullet
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Old 03-06-2013, 23:17   #66
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Well first let me point out that an active shooter situation is vastly different that personaly protection from dangerous animals.

You should also understand that no handgun not even a 500 S&W is going to offer the stopping power of a rifle or shotgun.

So my suggestion to you is to think long and hard about what role you want the handgun to play. Because even as a woods carry, we can go several different directions. Do you want a trail gun for collecting small game for the cookpot. Or do you want a defensive pistol, which has different requirements for 2 and 4 legged predators.

But here are my suggestions:

All holds barred best gun you could carry for both protection and collection of small game while on the trail is a 12 ga shotgun, go for a short barrel pump with a folding stock. Slugs for the 4 legged nasties, 00 buck for the 2 legged kind, and #6 birdshot for squirrels and rabbits.

But you did say a pistol....

Trail gun - Ruger Single-10 .22 LR Why? Same capacity as most semi auto .22 pistols, revolver is more reliable, no magazines to loose or break. Get the 5 1/2 inch model and head shots on small game at 20 yards will be no problem if you practice.

Woods gun (4 legged) - S&W 629 .44 mag. Why? Well they make bigger and they make badder but in all reality a stout 44 load generates more recoil that the avarage shooter can control. Master a 4 inch 629 and you are in alot better shape than the guy with the 454 who can't hit $h*t!

Woods gun (2 legged) - Glock 17. Why? Tough as nails high capacity 9mm. Cheap to practice with and easy to shoot. Like it or not, 9mm has a proven track record of stopping 2 legged threats. Why do you think that every military in the world issues fullsize 9mm sidearms? Look at the G19 if you have small hands and/or want to keep it concealed.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:42   #67
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All good points, but in reality we end up with a compromised. What's good for the trail, woods, predator,etc.... is far and between.

If you go back to the OP concerns and the dangerous situations he proposed. We could probably rule out a 22 or any variant of such, or any g17 or similar caliber/model/size handguns.


If their's a real concern of death, injury or being eaten, trampled by a moose or whatever, than he/she should select the best and defensive weapon for that purpose.

Also don't be mistaken that in whatever weapon choice you decide on, the proper ammo must be selected.

e.g

a 44mag loaded with FMJ would not be wise for SD against a 1K+ lb moose


Be safe

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Old 03-07-2013, 06:45   #68
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Thanks again everyone,

The volume of good information I am receiving here knows no bounds. All things considered, I am now looking for a .44 mag. with a 4" barrel made of steel. The S&W 629 "Mountain Gun" is/was? being remanufactured for Cabela's as the "Outfitter" for $899/$849. Looking at the prices online for used guns, baring a great deal from a pawn shop or gun show, I might as well buy new. Problem is, nobody at Cabela's seems to know when they will have more of them.

And what about those shot gun shell type rounds for trail game?

Search continues,
Richard
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:54   #69
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Thanks again everyone,

The volume of good information I am receiving here knows no bounds. All things considered, I am now looking for a .44 mag. with a 4" barrel made of steel. The S&W 629 "Mountain Gun" is/was? being remanufactured for Cabela's as the "Outfitter" for $899/$849. Looking at the prices online for used guns, baring a great deal from a pawn shop or gun show, I might as well buy new. Problem is, nobody at Cabela's seems to know when they will have more of them.

And what about those shot gun shell type rounds for trail game?

Search continues,
Richard
The real problem with the shotshell rounds is that they get a spin from the rifling and tend to throw a donut pattern with a big hole in the middle, and the shot size if fine for snakes up close but that's about it. If I ever get the time I am going to mess with loading some with large shot for slaps and grins.

Of course, since you can use .44 specials it's a nice option and reloaders like me can come up with a lot of loads.

For a non-reloader, look at some of the "mousefart" .44 special Cowboy Action loads.

To tell the truth I have been surprised that no factory has developed some kind of lighter, lower velocity "gallery/small game load, using a (probably) non-lead bullet for the .44 mag.
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:23   #70
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The real problem with the shotshell rounds is that they get a spin from the rifling and tend to throw a donut pattern with a big hole in the middle, and the shot size if fine for snakes up close but that's about it.
Why would you using a rifle barrel with shot? A standard smoothbore barrel should hold a pattern 12-20" @ 25yards.



Quote:
To tell the truth I have been surprised that no factory has developed some kind of lighter, lower velocity "gallery/small game load, using a (probably) non-lead bullet for the .44 mag.
A big bore revoler would not be adequate for small games. Why would a mfg'er load such a load? That what the 410 and 22LR/SR is for.
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:49   #71
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Why would you using a rifle barrel with shot? A standard smoothbore barrel should hold a pattern 12-20" @ 25yards.

Hey, Sherlock, did you see the question I was responding to?

"And what about those shot gun shell type rounds for trail game?"



A big bore revoler would not be adequate for small games. Why would a mfg'er load such a load? That what the 410 and 22LR/SR is for.

Did you not notice that the OP has apparently decided on his choice and it wasn't a "410 and 22LR/SR ".?.

I don't know how you hunt but none of the rabbits or squirrels I head shot with a .44 special tasted funny in any way.



And BTW I can tell you, that if need be, a 240 gn .4 cal LSWC will punch right through a rabbit at anywhere from 750 -1,300 fps and you can eat right up to the hole because it doesn't meet hardly any resistance to expand, upset, deform or sidetrack it.

I just think a nonlead bullet of very light cmaterials coud be usefule by limiting range and quite possible be a bit frangible on the first harder-that-a-rabbit surface it hit. might even give a Splatter effect for "barking" a squirrel.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:48   #72
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Hey countrygun,

Given I've decided that, thanks to much good advice from this thread and elsewhere, that a DA .44 mag. w/ 4" barrel is the best choice for Wilderness Protection for myself, I'd like to hear more about this reloading business. A good friend has a reloader, I'd just have to get the .44 special die? (I'm asking, not stating.)

I have my rifles and shotgun for hunting various game, but it seems like some of the places I go, armed with the proper load I could shoot Ptarmigan, Rabbit, Squirrel, Antelope, Mule Deer, whatever (almost), with the revolver?

Let's face it, I pray the situation I want the weapon to be able to handle never occurs. 99.999% (hopefully 100%) of the time I'll be enjoying other activities like practice and plinking. Maybe hunting?

Thanks everyone for listening,
Richard
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:51   #73
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Hey countrygun,

Given I've decided that, thanks to much good advice from this thread and elsewhere, that a DA .44 mag. w/ 4" barrel is the best choice for Wilderness Protection for myself, I'd like to hear more about this reloading business. A good friend has a reloader, I'd just have to get the .44 special die? (I'm asking, not stating.)

I have my rifles and shotgun for hunting various game, but it seems like some of the places I go, armed with the proper load I could shoot Ptarmigan, Rabbit, Squirrel, Antelope, Mule Deer, whatever (almost), with the revolver?

Let's face it, I pray the situation I want the weapon to be able to handle never occurs. 99.999% (hopefully 100%) of the time I'll be enjoying other activities like practice and plinking. Maybe hunting?

Thanks everyone for listening,
Richard
.44 special and . magnum are loaded with the same die set on the same equipment. There is quite a bit about it in the "Reloading" forum here at GT. and in "Caliber Corner" here as well.

In "Big Bore: revolvers, I load for the .41 magnum, .44special/magnum, and .45 colt. IMHO for a lot of reasons factories did not improve those rounds over the predecessors like they should have, with heavier bullets, they just threw more powder behind the previous "standard" weight to get more velocity as a sales point. "Look-- twice the velocity" is easier to sell than "Better sectional density and a higher ballistic coefficient" the latter phrase just doesn't roll of the tongue as well.

The fairly "Stock weights" in the .44 (240-250) and .45 (250)work well enough for 99.9% of most people's uses at just over 1,000 fps up to a bit over 1,200 IMO. If you want "more" a heavier bullet is better idea than more velocity, unless you are shooting at over 100 yds and even then it's debateable.

Use the search feature in "reloading" and 'Caliber corner" and enjoy the debates you find.
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Old 05-06-2013, 17:33   #74
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Option 1 - bear mace
Option 2 - (a very close second, btw) - 10mm Glock (Glock 20 full size preferable & Glock 29 baby G if you don't want the full size).

You can kill anything in North America with the 10mm.
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:49   #75
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I'll be out in the bush next week. I decided to take my H&K P2000sk in 40 since weight is a factor.
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