[byf43]

GT Braintrust -

A good friend has a Spanish FR-8 that he's looking to sell, and I can get it for (what I think is) a very good price.
The stock is really nice, although the finish has been stripped.

He's had this for a bunch of years, and has not shot it very much.
The barrel is in amazing condition.

I'm thinking that I'll get this for a 'toss in the truck gun'

It is chambered in 7.62x51mm (NOT the 7.62 CETME!).

What do you think???
The price was set at $300.00. (I've seen one other one recently, for $750.00)

Would "YOU" buy it??

[427]

I'd buy it! If it were someone other than your friend, I'd make a lower offer because the stock has been stripped - but that's just me.

[JDSTG58]

Yeah if it's in very good condition I would take it at that price. The FR 8 is a nice Mauser 98 action.

[byf43]

Originally Posted by 427

I'd buy it! If it were someone other than your friend, I'd make a lower offer because the stock has been stripped - but that's just me.

Since the stock has been stripped, I was thinking about a nice oil finish - either BLO or Tung Oil.

My youngest son likes the look of this, and he'll eventually wind up with most, if not all of my firearms, when I kick the bucket.

[ak103k]

The FR8's are great guns. Thats not a bad price either, even with the stock stripped. Personally, Id use the BLO, but thats me.

When I first saw them, I figured why would you ever want one of them? My buddy got one, and kept bugging me to get one saying Id like it. Boy was he ever right. I now have two, both my kids got one, as did my dad and brother.

If you get it, you want to do a couple of things. First and foremost, avoid the urge to bend the bolt. They work and carry so much better straight. Dont file the bolt stop on the follower off, its there for a reason. Get a bunch of Mauser strippers. Thats how its meant to be fed.

Mine seem to like either 7.62x51 surplus, or 150 grain .308's the best.

If you take a cheap Chinese flat bladed screw driver, one that fits in the hole in the top of the front sight globe, and file a inverted "V" into the blade, it will work real well as a sight adjustment tool. The sights are the predecessors to the HK G/90 series sights, and except for the elevation adjustments, work just like them. Id zero at 100 using the small "V" in the big notch, or at 200 using the first peep when the drum is turned anti clockwise. That should get you real close.

This explains the sights a little easier.



The big notch and the front "globe" are your CQB sight.

[RWBlue]

7.62 is not 308. 308 is more powerful than 7.62. I have not heard on anyone blowing themselves up, but....?

Besides the money....is there a reason not to get a Savage?

[vafish]

Originally Posted by RWBlue

7.62 is not 308. 308 is more powerful than 7.62. I have not heard on anyone blowing themselves up, but....?

Besides the money....is there a reason not to get a Savage?

.308 in an FR8 is not an issue. They are built on the 98 action and plenty strong.

Now the 1916 gaurdia re chambered to 7.62 on the older small ring action I can see having some caution.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.

[ak103k]

7.62 is not 308. 308 is more powerful than 7.62. I have not heard on anyone blowing themselves up, but....?

This has to be one of the biggest internet rumors still being passed around. Have you ever heard of ANYONE blowing themselves up using one for the other? If so, Id like to see the link to it explaining the cause, and preferably one that has some credible technical reason, not just "I heard Billy Bob done blowed his gun up because of it".

Ive been shooting 7.62 and .308 interchangeably (5.56 and .223 as well), since the mid 60's, in all manner of things, and have yet to have an issue of any kind.

Ive also reloaded tens of thousands for both, and have never had any issues (other than military brass sucks to work with) and have yet to see load data for the 7.62x51 in any of the commercial books. The only data for it I have seen, is in the copy of the Lake City Arsenal I got back in the 70's.

Besides the money....is there a reason not to get a Savage?

No stripper guide for one. Sights for another. Besides, you can get a Savage anywhere.

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by vafish

.308 in an FR8 is not an issue. They are built on the 98 action and plenty strong.

Now the 1916 gaurdia re chambered to 7.62 on the older small ring action I can see having some caution.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.

My understanding is they are both Mauser actions. Large ring, vs. small ring. Both SHOULD have been strong enough for 308, but the small ring was not because of mettle or heat treating or ...... It was something that you can not see with the nakid eye.

It has been a long time since I have seen an FR8 or 1916 in person. I may be totally wrong.

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by ak103k

This has to be one of the biggest internet rumors still being passed around. Have you ever heard of ANYONE blowing themselves up using one for the other? If so, Id like to see the link to it explaining the cause, and preferably one that has some credible technical reason, not just "I heard Billy Bob done blowed his gun up because of it".

Ive been shooting 7.62 and .308 interchangeably (5.56 and .223 as well), since the mid 60's, in all manner of things, and have yet to have an issue of any kind.

Ive also reloaded tens of thousands for both, and have never had any issues (other than military brass sucks to work with) and have yet to see load data for the 7.62x51 in any of the commercial books. The only data for it I have seen, is in the copy of the Lake City Arsenal I got back in the 70's.


No stripper guide for one. Sights for another. Besides, you can get a Savage anywhere.

My personal experience tells me modern firearms sold in America have a significant margin for screw up, probably because Americans love to hot rod things and then when they kill someone go find lawyers.

How many bolt action 7.62 rifles have you worked with?
Did you try loading them to max book values in 308?

The differences between the 7.62 and 308 are defined in Hornady's manual. This is mainly a power burn rate for M14 type rifles.

Noveske also did a write up when dealing with his AR-10 SBR clone, but I can not find it.

You will also see some write ups for Hornady Light magnum rounds in 308.

I have seen a bolt action rifle that needed to be pounded open with a rubber mallet. It appears that it didn't care for the differences in the 7.62 vs 308.

The differenced between the different chambers is probably more important with the 223 vs. 5.56. This information can be found on AR-15.com.

You can find evidence of people loading the 5.56 and shooting it out of an AR15 with a 5.56 chamber where the primer pops out of the case and the brass flows. I have personally seen this.

You will also find where a certain company released ammo where it was too hot and was killing AR-15s with 223 chambers. I have personally seen this.

There are differences, but you can get away with a lot if you know where the limits are.



While we are on the subject...
308 can be fired in 30-06, I don't recommend it.
357Sig can be fired in 40S&W, but I don't recommend it.
You can shoot HEAVY 45 Super loads out of any 45ACP gun, but I don't recommend it (and the gun may not survive this.)
There are may other examples of things that are not great ideas, but do work.

[byf43]

First - ak103k: THANKS for the rear sight diagram!!!


I've read quite a bit about the FR-8 and know the 7.62x51 vs. .308 issue(s).
This rifle is chambered for 7.62x51mm, and I have quite a bit of it 'squirreled away'.
I also load for my M1A and Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD, so, I'll be building some loads for this rifle.


I've got a couple of 'extra' K98k(s) laying around, and I've thought about putting a .308 barrel on one of them, but, I kinda like the look of this FR-8.
(Kinda thought about a short-barreled .308 w/ sporter stock on a Mauser action - but, I really don't want to "Bubba" a nice K98k!)

I've thought about a Savage (already have one in .243 for my son!), but, I dunno.
This old rifle is just 'calling me'.



He also has a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic (Stainless) in .223 that he's interested in selling.
The 26" barrel is a 'turn off' for me (as is the 1:12 twist), but, the price is very appealing!

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by byf43

This old rifle is just 'calling me'.

In my book, that is a good enough reason.

[ak103k]

How many 7.62 rifles have you worked with?
Did you try loading them to max book values in 308?

Quite a few 7.62x51 over the years. M14's, FAL's, G3's/HK91's, as well as a few bolt guns.

I dont usually load anything into the max range, just to what the spec for the gun or load Im trying to duplicate basically is.

Max book values vary from book to book too, so if you use one manual, and I use another, we may well have different ideas as to what "max" is. Speers manual seems to have many loads listed as minimum, that Hornady has listed at or over max.

Your best bet is to have one of each, and compare. You also shouldnt start at the top end with a new load anyway, and work up keeping an eye on things as you go.

The differences between the 7.62 and 308 are defined in Hornady's manual. This is mainly a power burn rate for M14 type rifles.

I just looked in mine, and really didnt see anything specifically discussed on the differences, but maybe I missed it. Is there a specific page youre referring to? They do have a "service rifle" specific section now, but they seem somewhat downloaded compered to previous editions and other manuals.

You would think they would explain the headspace differences and maybe die adjustments, if needed, but I saw nothing of that.

The match load Ive always used was derived from Federal and Sierra using a 168 grain SMK over 43.0 grains of 4064 at 2600fps. Which in most of the other manuals, isnt listed as a max load, nor has it ever shown any signs of pressure problems. Its also a very consistent load.

Anyone shooting and loading for M1, M14/M1A's, should know the limitations for ammo used with the guns and stays within the accepted specs. If not, doom on them. If you load the .308 with the appropriate powder/bullet combinations, you should have no troubles with any of them. If you want to start hot rodding stuff, and use in it guns that you know you shouldnt (mainly the autos), then thats on you.

I have seen a bolt action rifle that needed to be pounded open with a rubber mallet. It appears that it didn't care for the differences in the 7.62 vs 308.

Sounds like user/reloader error there to me. Ive shot a ton of both out of bolt guns, and never had as much as a stiff bolt.

The only 7.62 chambered bolt gun I did have issues with, was a SMLE with headspace issues. It would get case head separations on the first reload, and in a couple of cases, on the initial firing.

You can find evidence of people loading the 5.56 and shooting it out of an AR15 with a 5.56 chamber where the primer pops out of the case and the brass flows. I have personally seen this.

You will also find where a certain company released ammo where it was too hot and was killing AR-15s with 223 chambers. I have personally seen this.

There are differences, but you can get away with a lot if you know where the limits are.

The problems with AR's is, they are like 1911's, and everybody and his brother is making one, and each has a different idea as to what the specs should be. If youre shooting spec ammo in spec chambers, it shouldnt be an issue.

Reloaders, be it a person or a company, that are trying to make the gun into something it isnt, is an issue unto itself.

308 can be fired in 30-06, I don't recommend it.

Works fine if you use the inserts, assuming they stay put.

There are may other examples of things that are not great ideas, but do work.

As with anything, if you do your homework, and pay attention, use a little common sense, you shouldnt have any troubles.

THANKS for the rear sight diagram!!!

No problem.

I take it the FR8 is now a done deal?

In my book, that is a good enough reason.

Me too. The down side is, they usually con me into adopting half their relatives after they move in.

[Morris]

Owned a couple over the years. Foolishly sold them (sound familiar? ). Good rifles and and I'd buy it at that price!

[byf43]

Originally Posted by ak103k

No problem.

I take it the FR8 is now a done deal?

Well, I've slept on it, and thought quite a bit about it, and I've told my friend that I'll take it.

He has it at a local gun shop, with a HUGE price tag on it, for consignment.
He said that a couple of people have looked at it, but, no-one has laid down the $$$.

He's going back to the LGS and retrieve it, IF it's still there.

I do have the $$$ 'put away', IF he comes by here with the rifle.

I'm already thinking about going over to 'the farm' and seeing what it'll do with some SA surplus 7.62x51mm that I have.


(Another friend told me to offer this guy two battlepacks of SA 7.62x51mm for the rifle, since he has a couple of bolt guns, but no ammo squirreled away!)

[garya1961]

Originally Posted by RWBlue

7.62 is not 308. 308 is more powerful than 7.62. I have not heard on anyone blowing themselves up, but....?

Besides the money....is there a reason not to get a Savage?

This has been proven false. The military uses a different scale and that's why there is a difference in the pressure readings.

[byf43]

Rifle MAY have been sold on consignment.

My friend called the LGS to make arrangements to pick it up, and 'the lady' that answered the phone, seems to think it was sold on Monday.

He's supposed to call back, after 5:00 p.m.

IF it's meant to be. . . . it's meant to be. If not. . . . oh well.

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by ak103k

Quite a few 7.62x51 over the years. M14's, FAL's, G3's/HK91's, as well as a few bolt guns.

The semi-autos are very forgiving from what I have seen. The bolt rifles, not so much. When pushed.

Originally Posted by ak103k

Max book values vary from book to book too, so if you use one manual, and I use another, we may well have different ideas as to what "max" is. Speers manual seems to have many loads listed as minimum, that Hornady has listed at or over max.

Your best bet is to have one of each, and compare. You also shouldnt start at the top end with a new load anyway, and work up keeping an eye on things as you go.

I tend to dump all the into into a spreadsheet so I can work the data. Screwy loads tend to show up best that way.

Originally Posted by ak103k

I just looked in mine, and really didnt see anything specifically discussed on the differences, but maybe I missed it. Is there a specific page youre referring to? They do have a "service rifle" specific section now, but they seem somewhat downloaded compered to previous editions and other manuals.

The manual I am thinking about had specific pages for the M14 and M1. It is at least 10 years old probably older. It is sitting in a box in a garage not with me. I maybe be able to find it this weekend. I swear it was Hornady, but I have several so....

Originally Posted by ak103k

You would think they would explain the headspace differences and maybe die adjustments, if needed, but I saw nothing of that.

From what I remember it was a diagram showing the differences in the spec. and then a powder discussion. The powders and bullets for the M1 and the M14 were very limited as expected.

I read it. I loaded. I went to camp perry.....and I have forgotten most of what I knew at that time and would have to go back and read it again.

But then again, my M1A is marked 308 and will run 7.62x51 as designed.

Originally Posted by ak103k

Anyone shooting and loading for M1, M14/M1A's, should know the limitations for ammo used with the guns and stays within the accepted specs. If not, doom on them. If you load the .308 with the appropriate powder/bullet combinations, you should have no troubles with any of them. If you want to start hot rodding stuff, and use in it guns that you know you shouldnt (mainly the autos), then thats on you.

Exactly,...but I will add one more thing. I have seem more issues with bolt rifles than autos. The autos usually have a lose chamber and the bolt not so much.

Originally Posted by ak103k

Sounds like user/reloader error there to me. Ive shot a ton of both out of bolt guns, and never had as much as a stiff bolt.

South African 7.62x51 (which runs fine in the M1A) did not like the Steyr Scout which everyone says has a match chamber. I can't remember what we learned except we were not going to do that again.

Originally Posted by ak103k

The problems with AR's is, they are like 1911's, and everybody and his brother is making one, and each has a different idea as to what the specs should be. If youre shooting spec ammo in spec chambers, it shouldnt be an issue.

I think we are on the same page here. If built to military spec. except the trigger group, things work. When they make it with a 223 chamber and shoot 5.56, there have been issues. As well as other issues when diverging from the spec.

Originally Posted by ak103k

Reloaders, be it a person or a company, that are trying to make the gun into something it isnt, is an issue unto itself.

I have resembled that remark in my past.

Originally Posted by ak103k

Works fine if you use the inserts, assuming they stay put.

I was not thinking of using the 30-06 to 308 insert. You can shoot a 308 in a 30-06. It will work. It will fire form the case. As I understand it, that is one of the reasons it was adopted because the military was concerned that someone would put 308 in a 30-06 and kaboom, but it didn't.

Originally Posted by ak103k

As with anything, if you do your homework, and pay attention, use a little common sense, you shouldnt have any troubles.

I totally agree.....but it always surprises me when people lack a little common sense.

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by garya1961

This has been proven false. The military uses a different scale and that's why there is a difference in the pressure readings.

No they are not.

Please read my other post and then read these links.

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/308win.html

You can get away with a lot, but they are not the same.

[ak103k]

As I understand it, that is one of the reasons it was adopted because the military was concerned that someone would put 308 in a 30-06 and kaboom, but it didn't.

I have an M1 in .308. I also have one in 30-06, and Im a lot more leery of a clip of .308 somehow (yea, somehow ) getting into the 30-06 gun. Its not that first round loaded Im worried about, its the momentary lapse of attention, and thinking for some reason it didnt strip the top round, and just stroking bolt again.

[RWBlue]

I thought John Noveske wrote something for the internet, but it was just a response to my email. Fri, December 14, 2007 9:12 pm

ME:You have a warning about the gun being designed for military ammunition. I want to be able to use commercial ammunition. What failed Why Is it just a matter of replacing the recoil spring and buffer

John:You want to test a small amount of commercial ammo before you buy a bunch of it. Some Commercial ammo will drop primers. It is not a matter of replacing a few parts, it is a matter of using the correct ammunition. Mil surplus ball works great almost always, and some match is good. Watch Federal.

I have some ammo on order with Black hills for our rifles. It is a copy of M852 168 gr match.

Thanks,
----John

[byf43]

UPDATE:

Just got a call from the guy that owns the FR-8.
He's standing in the LGS, and the rifle is still there!!!

The LGS owner told him that a LOT of people have been "finger-diddling it", but, no-one has been interested in buying it.

He's pulling it from consignment, and it's mine!!!!
(Well, as soon as I hand him the $$$, that is.)



Now, he wants to sell me his Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic Stainless (.223) for $450.00!

Originally Posted by byf43

Rifle MAY have been sold on consignment.

My friend called the LGS to make arrangements to pick it up, and 'the lady' that answered the phone, seems to think it was sold on Monday.

He's supposed to call back, after 5:00 p.m.

IF it's meant to be. . . . it's meant to be. If not. . . . oh well.

[ak103k]

Cool!

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by byf43

UPDATE:

Just got a call from the guy that owns the FR-8.
He's standing in the LGS, and the rifle is still there!!!

The LGS owner told him that a LOT of people have been "finger-diddling it", but, no-one has been interested in buying it.

He's pulling it from consignment, and it's mine!!!!
(Well, as soon as I hand him the $$$, that is.)



Now, he wants to sell me his Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic Stainless (.223) for $450.00!

Excellent!

[Road Dog]

They are fun rifles. The cleaning kit makes it look like a semi auto.

RD