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Old 02-20-2013, 18:56   #51
cowboywannabe
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I am on the other side of being tired hearing how it's so diff when you get shot at. Look, if you are a poor shot on the range, you think you'll be better ina gunfight? I think not. I get tired of eharing how only LEO & military should carry guns because they have soooo much training. BS. The avg LEO goes from nothing to carrying a gun on the street in 1000rds of academy training. Then they qualify quarterly if they are lucky. In between, most do NOT practice. Those that do, yeah, their chance of surviving a gunfight will be much higher.
I'm not ripping on LEO in general, my dad was one, cousins, good friends, etc, but facts are just that. The avg LEO is barely competent w/ their handgun, as they do NOT practice, see it every weekend. Training w/o practice to maintain your skills is almost uselss. It is why there are so many shots fired with such poor results in LEO involved shootings. I understand it costs money & time, but many of us CCW types spend our money & time as well, & we do NOT carry a gun for a living.
You are right. training & proper mindset are important, but without adequate trigger time, your actual shootings skills degrade. It's why SWAT shoots more than the avg LEO & why SPec Ops shoots more than their counterparts in reg service. I encourage all shooters to take some training classes. Then take your training to an IDPA match & practice. It will also help with your mindset not having to think about the gun & just deal with the tactics & the problem in front of you.
you gotta be kidding here. are you even trying to suggest it isnt different?
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:06   #52
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Not at all, many LE shooting are also very close range. I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high. It is what it is guys. There are LEO that are shooters, then there are LEO that carry a gun. Big diff between the two when the SHTF.
What "Skews" the stats, if anything does, is the number of "Suicides by cop" AND very importantly, the ROE differences. Find that video that was around with the Texas trooper emptying his automatic at a fleeing suspect (and missing). If a civilian, in most States shot at a fleeing person they would probably have their hide nailed to a wall.

A civilian is generally limited to only when there is threat and possibility of death or great bodily harm (or whatever their State statutes say) LEOs have a bit more latitude and they also have the computers and whatnot to identify a stolen car, or a wanted suspect etc.

Not that I want to make a case for the current grabbers, but the civilian should be aware of the difference between "Stopping power" and "Firepower" and which the stats tend to present as more important to the civilian.

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Old 02-20-2013, 22:12   #53
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Sorry, but how do you figure that is "skewed"?

That is simply the way it is.

For something to be "Skewed" assumes there is a "standard' or "norm". Civilians shootings are civilian shootings and that is the point. Nothing "Skewed" to it.

I already explained it. Most civilian shootings don't involve running gun battles or shooting through car doors, barriers, etc. They are almost always straight forward affairs as I alluded to in my earlier post and at contact to point blank distance. You don't have civilians firing enfilade down a street at a fleeing felon. You're comparing Little League stats against the Major League.


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Not at all, many LE shooting are also very close range. I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high...
So how many shots do you deem sufficient, Fred?
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Old 02-20-2013, 22:26   #54
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I already explained it. Most civilian shootings don't involve running gun battles or shooting through car doors, barriers, etc. They are almost always straight forward affairs as I alluded to in my earlier post and at contact to point blank distance. You don't have civilians firing enfilade down a street at a fleeing felon. You're comparing Little League stats against the Major League.

And that is precisely the point. They are two different things so nothing is "skewed" . There isn't a comparison other than the number of rounds fired per hit. Where did anyone say there was? I thought I made it clear that the ROE for civilians and cops is different.

In other words " No s**t Sherlock, that was the point"
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Old 02-20-2013, 23:35   #55
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so where have i stated that one shouldnt train?, that only cops and military should have guns?,
Your reading comprehension is really poor, maybe why you can't seem to find the point. I NEVER SAID that you said anything about only LEO & mil. Do you NOT watch the news, do you not hear all the BS about the gun debate? The liberals are always saying only LEO & military have the training to carry guns for SD. PURE FING BS! THAT is what I am sick of hearing. SOme of the worst shooters I have ever seen are cops. I have trained some & shot with many, the avg LEO is a terrible shooter. They may be fine people, good cops, but terrible shooters. Most guys coming out of the military are great with a long gun, but handguns, uh, not so much as a rule. It is what it is.
Any martial art requires training & then relentless practice to be proficient. So if you are skimming this or just not getting it, that is my point. Caliber or not, your skill level matters more & you will NEVER get to a skill level like that w/o training & constent practice. Put your ego back in it's box. This was not a personal assualt on you until you made it one.
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Old 02-20-2013, 23:44   #56
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you gotta be kidding here. are you even trying to suggest it isnt different?
Look, we agree mind set is it, 45% of the gunfight, then maybe 45% is skill level, then there is the 10% pure dumb luck. If you think getting shot at is a debilitating issue, then it will be. Not unlike any other traumatic event. So prepare yourself mentally, physically & deal with the issue. It is what you do every day as a LEO right? So what makes you think your are some how special, that other non LEO do not have the same mindset? Again, my point; If you can NOT shoot under the stress of a simple timer, do you really think you will rise to the occasion when bullets are flying? I think not, unless you get that 10% luck thing going.
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Old 02-20-2013, 23:51   #57
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I already explained it. Most civilian shootings don't involve running gun battles or shooting through car doors, barriers, etc. They are almost always straight forward affairs as I alluded to in my earlier post and at contact to point blank distance. You don't have civilians firing enfilade down a street at a fleeing felon. You're comparing Little League stats against the Major League.




So how many shots do you deem sufficient, Fred?
Stupid question obviously until the threat is down. But seriously, look at all the henously poor shootings where dozens of rounds are fired, many at close range & very few hits. It's ridiculous & it is mostly because LEOs will not practice as a rule. I have been told many times, "they don't pay me to practice" or other such crap. It's your profession, you better be good at it when it counts. You don't get better w/o practicing.
There are so many things wrong w/ the way many dept train & maintain their officer's skills. They should pay them to practice, they should have them qualify monthly, no qual no job. It isn't like that though, pitty.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:33   #58
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my key board ediquette isnt up to par, read in to it what you will. caps or lower case, its spelled the same.
Dude, you made good points, and I appreciate the info on training, but falling back on "bad KB etiquette" is weak. You know perfectly well that all caps is the same as SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET, and if we were all in a room together, and you answered Fred at full volume the way capslock signifies, you'd be just as out of line as you are by doing it here.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:24   #59
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You guys all have good points. Hopefully you can get along a little better

That Dorner video is really going to pile the number of shots. Looking at that, it seems easy to understand that non-criminal civilian shots would be lower than the other two categories.

But really, what's the point again? .44 special is a nice round, and is 5 or 6 shots enough to carry? Or is Win Silvertip a good bullet? I think the second was more the point of the thread.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:53   #60
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And that is precisely the point. They are two different things so nothing is "skewed" . There isn't a comparison other than the number of rounds fired per hit. Where did anyone say there was? I thought I made it clear that the ROE for civilians and cops is different.

In other words " No s**t Sherlock, that was the point"
You are comparing data from two different groups operating under a different set of parameters.
Civilians can break off the engagement if possible to fight another day. LE is obligated to engage until the threat has ended. They can't simply say "to Hell with it" and drive or walk away, so to speak. They also can have backup which the average Joe doesn't. Different paramaters & dynamics can & will make for totally different results. One wouldn't compare hit ratios between soldiers in Afghanistan with LE in the USA as again, totally different dynamics.


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Stupid question obviously until the threat is down...
Then why did YOU state this earlier?

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... I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high...
This presupposes that in your esteemed opinion they should not need as many shots or...?
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Old 02-21-2013, 13:54   #61
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You are comparing data from two different groups operating under a different set of parameters.
Civilians can break off the engagement if possible to fight another day. LE is obligated to engage until the threat has ended. They can't simply say "to Hell with it" and drive or walk away, so to speak. They also can have backup which the average Joe doesn't. Different paramaters & dynamics can & will make for totally different results. One wouldn't compare hit ratios between soldiers in Afghanistan with LE in the USA as again, totally different dynamics.



...?
AND That is the whole freaking point!!!!!

If I look in the dictionary under "obtuse" what are the chances I will find your picture?
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Old 02-21-2013, 16:10   #62
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Wellllll.....the good news is that my 624 was not one made during the 1985 recall period.
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Old 02-21-2013, 16:36   #63
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Wellllll.....the good news is that my 624 was not one made during the 1985 recall period.
Outstanding !!!!

Lotsa shooting in your future. great gun. amazing how much one will actually "Put out" in terms of down range effect at a comfortable shooter level.
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Old 02-21-2013, 19:26   #64
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Is S&W or anyone else marketing a .44 Special revolver - Ruger or Charter Arms?
I Know S&W made a mod. 696? I believe that was an L-frame 5 shot 44spl with round butt and a 3 Inch bbl. I'm not sure if it's still offered, but It looked like a great EDC for anyone who likes big bore revolvers.

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Old 02-21-2013, 19:34   #65
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Civilians can break off the engagement if possible to fight another day. LE is obligated to engage until the threat has ended. They can't simply say "to Hell with it" and drive or walk away, so to speak.
You mean like they did during the LA Riots???
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Old 02-22-2013, 00:18   #66
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...They are two different things so nothing is "skewed"...
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AND That is the whole freaking point!!!!!

If I look in the dictionary under "obtuse" what are the chances I will find your picture?

More than 10,000 posts in a year!!! Do you have a job or are you institutionalized?

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Old 02-22-2013, 00:25   #67
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More than 10,000 posts in a year!!! Do you have a job or are you institutionalized?

FWIW I happen to be retired, but if my post count is all you've got to mention, feel free to go for it.

but

With your comprehension skills I wouldn't be making jokes about institutionalization if I were you.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:08   #68
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You are comparing data from two different groups operating under a different set of parameters.
Civilians can break off the engagement if possible to fight another day. LE is obligated to engage until the threat has ended. They can't simply say "to Hell with it" and drive or walk away, so to speak. They also can have backup which the average Joe doesn't. Different paramaters & dynamics can & will make for totally different results. One wouldn't compare hit ratios between soldiers in Afghanistan with LE in the USA as again, totally different dynamics.

Then why did YOU state this earlier?


This presupposes that in your esteemed opinion they should not need as many shots or...?
That is your interpretation, I am only sighting numbers. Anyone that honestly evaluates their shooting that of others around them can not come away with much diff findings. Most LEO are not shooters & their performance in the field proves it on a daily basis. Adequate skill is fine for stacking paper @ the DMV or sorting mail @ the USPO, but when it comes to carrying a gun, I think the skill level should be quite a bit higher.
http://www.policeone.com/columnists/...ticles/117909/
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:10   #69
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But really, what's the point again? .44 special is a nice round, and is 5 or 6 shots enough to carry? Or is Win Silvertip a good bullet? I think the second was more the point of the thread.
Sure, for ccw, 5-6 shots is probably enough, if you can shoot & proper bullet selection. As noted, CCW are not pressed to engage & pursue their attacker. So unless you are wading into a flash mob or riot, I would be fine w/ 5-6rds & a reload. A reload because it's good to be prepared.
I'm a big revolver fan, but honestly, with all the small & pwoerful semiautos available, I would not likely pack a rev unless it was on the trail. My P239/357sig is smaller than my M66 2 1/2", I get 3 more rds & it's easier to hit w/ @ any distance. Someting like a G33, 10rds, less wt, makes a rev carry a difficult choice. On the trail, my 3" 44mag is comforting in bear country & nothing could be more versitile.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:36   #70
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In other words " No s**t Sherlock, that was the point"


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Old 02-22-2013, 07:51   #71
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Five shots of .44 Special should be enough for any occasion.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:29   #72
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Five shots of .44 Special should be enough for any occasion.
Well I wouldn't go that far. Multiple gun armed attackers, you could run out of ammo quickly. Adequate w/ a reload would be how I place a revolver, any caliber.
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Old 02-22-2013, 13:29   #73
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Well I wouldn't go that far. Multiple gun armed attackers, you could run out of ammo quickly. Adequate w/ a reload would be how I place a revolver, any caliber.
Well then how about two .44Spl revolvers?
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Old 02-22-2013, 13:40   #74
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Well then how about two .44Spl revolvers?


Go get em' amigo !



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Old 02-22-2013, 14:12   #75
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Go get em' amigo !



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