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Old 02-20-2013, 16:47   #41
cowboywannabe
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Did he get away?
no, he got life without parole.

BTW youd be surprised at how many hits a dodge durango can take before its disabled. and even then it was a rusted out farm truck in a field that stopped it when he hit it because he ducked down to avoid being shot during the escape attempt.

speed of occurance, poor lighting, adrenaline, being shot at by a moving target (man and vehicle), poor training...... all played a part in that video.
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:49   #42
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The times they have changed, and not for the better I fear.

In 1980 while working on a college term paper (remember folks this was before the internet, we used things called "books") I had access to the current FBI Uniform Crime Report, in printed form. Completely fascinating and the way they broke down some of the statistics was rather useful. Sadly no one apparently can weed through todays format and pull out the numbers the way they were laid out back then. I still remember (within 1 digit I'll wager) , because it was part of my paper, the stats on,

"Shots fired per hit on intended target"

Criminals..........13

Law Enforcement Officers......9

Civilians.............1.2

That's right, civilians had a very high hit ratio back then. I did a further analysis from the data, and gee what a surprise, it seems that civilians were more often under close attack than the other two groups. There was a much higher incidence of civilians having been profiled as 'Victims" for contact level attacks by criminals so they had a slightly different mindset and a closer target. Today we would say "The ROE that civilians operate under is restricted to such an extent that the odds of a hit are greatly enhanced."
I wonder if the shots fired by civilians were in the commission of a crime, such as murder? That would account for the low ratio.
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:54   #43
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I wonder if the shots fired by civilians were in the commission of a crime, such as murder? That would account for the low ratio.
If it involved murder, they would have been added in the "Criminal" stats. How could you be confused about that?
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Old 02-20-2013, 18:52   #44
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Civilian statistics are skewed as usually those involve something very close, e.g., mugging, stickup, etc., and although it can be done with ease under duress, it is still far harder to miss someone close to you than afar with a handgun. Also, criminals act differently around citizens than they do LE.
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Old 02-20-2013, 18:59   #45
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Civilian statistics are skewed as usually those involve something very close, e.g., mugging, stickup, etc., and although it can be done with ease under duress, it is still far harder to miss someone close to you than afar with a handgun. Also, criminals act differently around citizens than they do LE.
Sorry, but how do you figure that is "skewed"?

That is simply the way it is.

For something to be "Skewed" assumes there is a "standard' or "norm". Civilians shootings are civilian shootings and that is the point. Nothing "Skewed" to it.
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:13   #46
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The first few IDPA matches you shoot are pretty humbling and you know no one is shooting back.
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:33   #47
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WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? COPS AND MILITARY ONLY CARRYING GUNS? WHERE HAVE I SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THAT?

I SUPPORT MORE TRAINING, NOT LESS; YOU MUSTA MISSED THAT PART HUH?

ALSO HOW CAN YOU PROPERLY TRAIN BUT NOT GET ADEQUATE TRIGGER TIME?

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO A YOU VERSUS ME THING?

I STATED AND STILL MEAN, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE SHOT AT AND HAVE TO SHOOT BACK AT A BAD GUY UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE SO. UNTIL THEN ALL YOU CAN DO IS TRY TO PREPARE YOURSELF, BUT KNOW THIS; THIGS HAVE A WAY OF CHANGING WHEN THEY ACTUALLY OCCUR IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF THE TRAINING GROUND.

HERE IS A TASTE OF REAL LIFE. I WAS THERE FOR THIS ONE AND IT WASNT LIKE THE FIRST TIME I HAD TO DO IT AND IT WAS NOTHING LIKE TRAINING.
Alabama Cops Shooting - YouTube

IVE POSTED THIS VIDEO ON HERE A FEW TIMES....I DONT KNOW HOW LONG THE WHOLE EVENT LASTED....THE WAITING, MOVING INTO POSITION, PLANNING AND ALL SEEMED LIKE FOREVER, THE GUN FIGHT SEEMED LIKE A FEW SECONDS. NEITHER WAS THE CASE.
WHAT THIS GUY'S VIDEO MISSED WAS THE FIRST VOLLEY. HE CAUGHT THE SECOND AND THIRD.
Funny, us vs them, you vs me thing, never met a LEO yet that doesn't think that way. This is nothing personal, but you are kinda making it that. Don't get your panties in a wad. YOU made a gneral statement & so did I. Are YOU not paying attention to all the anti gun BS lately? I hear all the time how only military & LEO should carry guns.
Training vs practice. You are trained when you come out of the academy. Training & practice have almost nothing to do with each other. Practice w/o training is almost pointelss & training w/o constant practice is also all most useless. You don't get better sitting in your car or typing on the net, you get better pulling the trigger AFTER you have had some good training. YOU missed that thought I believe.
BTW all caps isn't making your point at all. I think I have made mine. I have had LE training, private training, night training, shot quals, shoot IDPA regularly, night shoots, etc. If you are a good shooter, you can NOT honestly tell me that your LE brothers are ALL up to speed? Yeah, thought so. Again, I shoot w/ LEO guys every week, some are quite good, some are barely functional on anything but a flat range. Just facts man, don't take it personal if you are not in that group, good for you. If you are, if you want to fall back on that old line about it's diff when you are shot at, well, I suggest more trigger time. As one instructor put it, when the balloon goes up, you'll be half as good in a gunfight as your best day at the range. For many, LEO & CCW, that is pretty frickking bad & shooting stats prove that.
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:40   #48
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I wonder if the shots fired by civilians were in the commission of a crime, such as murder? That would account for the low ratio.
No, virtually all civ shootings are by a single person, the shots per incident go down when the shooting is by a single officer. Still not as low as CCW but much lower than the avg per incident count.
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:44   #49
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Civilian statistics are skewed as usually those involve something very close, e.g., mugging, stickup, etc., and although it can be done with ease under duress, it is still far harder to miss someone close to you than afar with a handgun. Also, criminals act differently around citizens than they do LE.
Not at all, many LE shooting are also very close range. I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high. It is what it is guys. There are LEO that are shooters, then there are LEO that carry a gun. Big diff between the two when the SHTF.
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:50   #50
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Funny, us vs them, you vs me thing, never met a LEO yet that doesn't think that way. it looked like you made it that way and i questioned you as to why you did so, not my idea, yours.This is nothing personal, but you are kinda making it that. Don't get your panties in a wad. YOU made a gneral statement & so did I. Are YOU not paying attention to all the anti gun BS lately? I hear all the time how only military & LEO should carry guns. who specifically are you hearing this from?

Training vs practice. You are trained when you come out of the academy. Training & practice have almost nothing to do with each other. Practice w/o training is almost pointelss & training w/o constant practice is also all most useless. You don't get better sitting in your car or typing on the net, you get better pulling the trigger AFTER you have had some good training. YOU missed that thought I believe. youre arguing samantics, i took for granted you knew what i meant. obviously you didnt.
BTW all caps isn't making your point at all. my key board ediquette isnt up to par, read in to it what you will. caps or lower case, its spelled the same. I think I have made mine. what exactly was your point? i missed it. I have had LE training, private training, night training, shot quals, shoot IDPA regularly, night shoots, etc. If you are a good shooter, you can NOT honestly tell me that your LE brothers are ALL up to speed? Yeah, thought so. Again, I shoot w/ LEO guys every week, some are quite good, some are barely functional on anything but a flat range. Just facts man, don't take it personal if you are not in that group, good for you. If you are, if you want to fall back on that old line about it's diff when you are shot at, well, I suggest more trigger time. As one instructor put it, when the balloon goes up, you'll be half as good in a gunfight as your best day at the range. For many, LEO & CCW, that is pretty frickking bad & shooting stats prove that.
so where have i stated that one shouldnt train?, that only cops and military should have guns?,
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Old 02-20-2013, 19:56   #51
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I am on the other side of being tired hearing how it's so diff when you get shot at. Look, if you are a poor shot on the range, you think you'll be better ina gunfight? I think not. I get tired of eharing how only LEO & military should carry guns because they have soooo much training. BS. The avg LEO goes from nothing to carrying a gun on the street in 1000rds of academy training. Then they qualify quarterly if they are lucky. In between, most do NOT practice. Those that do, yeah, their chance of surviving a gunfight will be much higher.
I'm not ripping on LEO in general, my dad was one, cousins, good friends, etc, but facts are just that. The avg LEO is barely competent w/ their handgun, as they do NOT practice, see it every weekend. Training w/o practice to maintain your skills is almost uselss. It is why there are so many shots fired with such poor results in LEO involved shootings. I understand it costs money & time, but many of us CCW types spend our money & time as well, & we do NOT carry a gun for a living.
You are right. training & proper mindset are important, but without adequate trigger time, your actual shootings skills degrade. It's why SWAT shoots more than the avg LEO & why SPec Ops shoots more than their counterparts in reg service. I encourage all shooters to take some training classes. Then take your training to an IDPA match & practice. It will also help with your mindset not having to think about the gun & just deal with the tactics & the problem in front of you.
you gotta be kidding here. are you even trying to suggest it isnt different?
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Old 02-20-2013, 20:06   #52
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Not at all, many LE shooting are also very close range. I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high. It is what it is guys. There are LEO that are shooters, then there are LEO that carry a gun. Big diff between the two when the SHTF.
What "Skews" the stats, if anything does, is the number of "Suicides by cop" AND very importantly, the ROE differences. Find that video that was around with the Texas trooper emptying his automatic at a fleeing suspect (and missing). If a civilian, in most States shot at a fleeing person they would probably have their hide nailed to a wall.

A civilian is generally limited to only when there is threat and possibility of death or great bodily harm (or whatever their State statutes say) LEOs have a bit more latitude and they also have the computers and whatnot to identify a stolen car, or a wanted suspect etc.

Not that I want to make a case for the current grabbers, but the civilian should be aware of the difference between "Stopping power" and "Firepower" and which the stats tend to present as more important to the civilian.

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Old 02-20-2013, 23:12   #53
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Sorry, but how do you figure that is "skewed"?

That is simply the way it is.

For something to be "Skewed" assumes there is a "standard' or "norm". Civilians shootings are civilian shootings and that is the point. Nothing "Skewed" to it.

I already explained it. Most civilian shootings don't involve running gun battles or shooting through car doors, barriers, etc. They are almost always straight forward affairs as I alluded to in my earlier post and at contact to point blank distance. You don't have civilians firing enfilade down a street at a fleeing felon. You're comparing Little League stats against the Major League.


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Not at all, many LE shooting are also very close range. I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high...
So how many shots do you deem sufficient, Fred?
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Old 02-20-2013, 23:26   #54
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I already explained it. Most civilian shootings don't involve running gun battles or shooting through car doors, barriers, etc. They are almost always straight forward affairs as I alluded to in my earlier post and at contact to point blank distance. You don't have civilians firing enfilade down a street at a fleeing felon. You're comparing Little League stats against the Major League.

And that is precisely the point. They are two different things so nothing is "skewed" . There isn't a comparison other than the number of rounds fired per hit. Where did anyone say there was? I thought I made it clear that the ROE for civilians and cops is different.

In other words " No s**t Sherlock, that was the point"
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Old 02-21-2013, 00:35   #55
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so where have i stated that one shouldnt train?, that only cops and military should have guns?,
Your reading comprehension is really poor, maybe why you can't seem to find the point. I NEVER SAID that you said anything about only LEO & mil. Do you NOT watch the news, do you not hear all the BS about the gun debate? The liberals are always saying only LEO & military have the training to carry guns for SD. PURE FING BS! THAT is what I am sick of hearing. SOme of the worst shooters I have ever seen are cops. I have trained some & shot with many, the avg LEO is a terrible shooter. They may be fine people, good cops, but terrible shooters. Most guys coming out of the military are great with a long gun, but handguns, uh, not so much as a rule. It is what it is.
Any martial art requires training & then relentless practice to be proficient. So if you are skimming this or just not getting it, that is my point. Caliber or not, your skill level matters more & you will NEVER get to a skill level like that w/o training & constent practice. Put your ego back in it's box. This was not a personal assualt on you until you made it one.
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Old 02-21-2013, 00:44   #56
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you gotta be kidding here. are you even trying to suggest it isnt different?
Look, we agree mind set is it, 45% of the gunfight, then maybe 45% is skill level, then there is the 10% pure dumb luck. If you think getting shot at is a debilitating issue, then it will be. Not unlike any other traumatic event. So prepare yourself mentally, physically & deal with the issue. It is what you do every day as a LEO right? So what makes you think your are some how special, that other non LEO do not have the same mindset? Again, my point; If you can NOT shoot under the stress of a simple timer, do you really think you will rise to the occasion when bullets are flying? I think not, unless you get that 10% luck thing going.
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Old 02-21-2013, 00:51   #57
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I already explained it. Most civilian shootings don't involve running gun battles or shooting through car doors, barriers, etc. They are almost always straight forward affairs as I alluded to in my earlier post and at contact to point blank distance. You don't have civilians firing enfilade down a street at a fleeing felon. You're comparing Little League stats against the Major League.




So how many shots do you deem sufficient, Fred?
Stupid question obviously until the threat is down. But seriously, look at all the henously poor shootings where dozens of rounds are fired, many at close range & very few hits. It's ridiculous & it is mostly because LEOs will not practice as a rule. I have been told many times, "they don't pay me to practice" or other such crap. It's your profession, you better be good at it when it counts. You don't get better w/o practicing.
There are so many things wrong w/ the way many dept train & maintain their officer's skills. They should pay them to practice, they should have them qualify monthly, no qual no job. It isn't like that though, pitty.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:33   #58
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my key board ediquette isnt up to par, read in to it what you will. caps or lower case, its spelled the same.
Dude, you made good points, and I appreciate the info on training, but falling back on "bad KB etiquette" is weak. You know perfectly well that all caps is the same as SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET, and if we were all in a room together, and you answered Fred at full volume the way capslock signifies, you'd be just as out of line as you are by doing it here.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:24   #59
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You guys all have good points. Hopefully you can get along a little better

That Dorner video is really going to pile the number of shots. Looking at that, it seems easy to understand that non-criminal civilian shots would be lower than the other two categories.

But really, what's the point again? .44 special is a nice round, and is 5 or 6 shots enough to carry? Or is Win Silvertip a good bullet? I think the second was more the point of the thread.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:53   #60
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And that is precisely the point. They are two different things so nothing is "skewed" . There isn't a comparison other than the number of rounds fired per hit. Where did anyone say there was? I thought I made it clear that the ROE for civilians and cops is different.

In other words " No s**t Sherlock, that was the point"
You are comparing data from two different groups operating under a different set of parameters.
Civilians can break off the engagement if possible to fight another day. LE is obligated to engage until the threat has ended. They can't simply say "to Hell with it" and drive or walk away, so to speak. They also can have backup which the average Joe doesn't. Different paramaters & dynamics can & will make for totally different results. One wouldn't compare hit ratios between soldiers in Afghanistan with LE in the USA as again, totally different dynamics.


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Stupid question obviously until the threat is down...
Then why did YOU state this earlier?

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... I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high...
This presupposes that in your esteemed opinion they should not need as many shots or...?
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