[fredj338]

Originally Posted by rustytxrx

If you are a geezer, you learned the old police academy "Rule of Three". Three shots, three seconds, three yards. The 2" five shot revolver can answer that threat....with practice.

If pigs are any test of a caliber, the 44 special at gun fighting range works as well as any defensive caliber I have used. I have yet to find any carry pistols from 460 Rowland to 9mm that will stone a 150# pig shot thru the chest reliably.

LEO missed the bad guy once at point blank range then 17 more times when the bad guy broke and ran. I don't think I am any better than the average LEO.

The question is actually can you depend on any caliber? I suspect the answer is NO.

Well, I KNOW I Am better, I shoot w/ LEO all the time. Shooting is a degrading skill. Unless you shoot every week min, your skills will degrade. It's not like riding a bike. The avg LEO fires his service weapon only @ quals, so 4x a year, 6x in a generous dept. Your skill level will never get any better shooting 6x a year & most LEO hgave the minimal skill level to carry a gun on the street. Pure fact, see it daily.
Yeah, 44sp is a great old round. When I carry my 3" M629 back packing, I down load when I hit the city w/ a 44sp equiv 250gr LHP @ 900fps. Soft lead always expands decently & rapid controlled pairs are easily done.

[Tiro Fijo]

I'm going to handload some of these in the future when I get time:


http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.ph...roducts_id=280

[rustytxrx]

Fredj, you have one thing absolutely right. It is the shooters skill and coolhead.

The caliber might matter least in the skill priority. From the vidoe being able to one handed just using your gun index sure looks important in CQB. Many of the Leo's never could get two hands on the gun. Not a lot of the cops ever got thr gun upto their eye to aim the barrel are the sights.

I was thought combat shoting by Sheriff Hugh Anderson, sheriff of Hutchison County for four decade. this was back in the early 60. He insisted that the first two shots of a combat string be fired kinda western fast draw. You shot from between your waste and chest try to have such a good index on the pistol you shot where you looked at close range. Hugh was a good man. God rest his soul. he came into my life when I was seventeen. I had just shot and killed my no good scum of the earth step farther. He had mother on the floor beating her in the face. I came in with his back to me and put a 45 LC right between his shoulder blades.....alas from the back. Had it not been for sheriff Anderson setting things straight my life would be far different

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by rustytxrx

Fredj, you have one thing absolutely right. It is the shooters skill and coolhead.

The caliber might matter least in the skill priority. From the vidoe being able to one handed just using your gun index sure looks important in CQB. Many of the Leo's never could get two hands on the gun. Not a lot of the cops ever got thr gun upto their eye to aim the barrel are the sights.

I was thought combat shoting by Sheriff Hugh Anderson, sheriff of Hutchison County for four decade. this was back in the early 60. He insisted that the first two shots of a combat string be fired kinda western fast draw. You shot from between your waste and chest try to have such a good index on the pistol you shot where you looked at close range. Hugh was a good man. God rest his soul. he came into my life when I was seventeen. I had just shot and killed my no good scum of the earth step farther. He had mother on the floor beating her in the face. I came in with his back to me and put a 45 LC right between his shoulder blades.....alas from the back. Had it not been for sheriff Anderson setting things straight my life would be far different

At contact distance, wher you can only use one hand, sights are not needed. Fast draw BS aside, anytime you are outside the BG reach, the gun can come to eye level to at least index the bbl on target. Point shooters can't hit much past contact distance in a hurry. Getting the gun to eye level takes no more time than rolling the gun out oif the holster & locking the elbow down for good point shooting.
All service calibers work pretty well w/ good bullets. Bigger good bullets work a little bit better. The real problem is too many shooters worry about their ammo & not their skill level. If you can't get your gun out & a pair of good hits on target in less then 2sec, at any reasonable combat distance, you have a lot of work to do. Most LEO, can not do this. There is a reason they use so many shots in an avg gunfight, they are poor shots, that simple. A buddy of mine works for LAPD, bragging how their dept had one of the best hit ratios in the country @ 30%. Pretty pathetic when you realize 70% of those misses are heading downrange to hit innocents. Now he is a really good shooter, but his brothers in blue, most are really bad with their handguns, competent would be nice, I can't expect even better than avg from guys that don't practice.

[Tiro Fijo]

Originally Posted by fredj338

...There is a reason they use so many shots in an avg gunfight, they are poor shots, that simple...

It's a little more complicated than that. Firstly, nothing can prepare people for these things and they are never the same each time. People train with two dimensional non-moving targets for a three dimensional problem involving complex simians who are only predictable in their propensity for unpredictable violence.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by countrygun

I'm wearing the Charter Arms right now. Great little gun.

That's right - five ready tranquillizers!

[cowboywannabe]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

It's a little more complicated than that. Firstly, nothing can prepare people for these things and they are never the same each time. People train with two dimensional non-moving targets for a three dimensional problem involving complex simians who are only predictable in their propensity for unpredictable violence.

thank you for posting this, ive grown tired of trying to explain to folks who first havent been shot at or had to shot an armed attacker moving around....bad lighting, occurring in the blink of an eye....

[digilo]

Originally Posted by cowboywannabe

thank you for posting this, ive grown tired of trying to explain to folks who first havent been shot at or had to shot an armed attacker moving around....bad lighting, occurring in the blink of an eye....

How else can one attempt to train for such an encounter? What about point shooting, ala Fairbairn/Sykes? What training would you advise, or what types of practice?

I ask not for the sake of argument, but sincerely, to learn.

thanks

[cowboywannabe]

Originally Posted by digilo

How else can one attempt to train for such an encounter? What about point shooting, ala Fairbairn/Sykes? What training would you advise, or what types of practice?

I ask not for the sake of argument, but sincerely, to learn.

thanks

point shooting is a method i practice and recommend as well as using sights or "flash picture". practice must encompass all types of training.

here a neat little training exercise. take three balloon filled with regular air blown up to about the size of a steering wheel, you know the regular pear shaped ballons used at parties and what not.

in a safe environment let those balloons go on the ground during just the slightest breeze, when they are about 15 feet from you draw your holstered gun and fire until you pop them all (only takes one glancing round per balloon, not even a center hit). how many rounds did you fire? how far away was the last balloon before you hit it? how long did it take to get all three?

this will open your eyes somewhat.

edited to add: there is no training that can adequately prepare you for a real gun fight other than a real gun fight. even if you survive the first one, the next one (God forbid) wont be anything like the last one.... too many variables. all you can do is mentally prepare to do what you must.

[countrygun]

The times they have changed, and not for the better I fear.

In 1980 while working on a college term paper (remember folks this was before the internet, we used things called "books") I had access to the current FBI Uniform Crime Report, in printed form. Completely fascinating and the way they broke down some of the statistics was rather useful. Sadly no one apparently can weed through todays format and pull out the numbers the way they were laid out back then. I still remember (within 1 digit I'll wager) , because it was part of my paper, the stats on,

"Shots fired per hit on intended target"

Criminals..........13

Law Enforcement Officers......9

Civilians.............1.2

That's right, civilians had a very high hit ratio back then. I did a further analysis from the data, and gee what a surprise, it seems that civilians were more often under close attack than the other two groups. There was a much higher incidence of civilians having been profiled as 'Victims" for contact level attacks by criminals so they had a slightly different mindset and a closer target. Today we would say "The ROE that civilians operate under is restricted to such an extent that the odds of a hit are greatly enhanced."

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by cowboywannabe

thank you for posting this, ive grown tired of trying to explain to folks who first havent been shot at or had to shot an armed attacker moving around....bad lighting, occurring in the blink of an eye....

I am on the other side of being tired hearing how it's so diff when you get shot at. Look, if you are a poor shot on the range, you think you'll be better ina gunfight? I think not. I get tired of eharing how only LEO & military should carry guns because they have soooo much training. BS. The avg LEO goes from nothing to carrying a gun on the street in 1000rds of academy training. Then they qualify quarterly if they are lucky. In between, most do NOT practice. Those that do, yeah, their chance of surviving a gunfight will be much higher.
I'm not ripping on LEO in general, my dad was one, cousins, good friends, etc, but facts are just that. The avg LEO is barely competent w/ their handgun, as they do NOT practice, see it every weekend. Training w/o practice to maintain your skills is almost uselss. It is why there are so many shots fired with such poor results in LEO involved shootings. I understand it costs money & time, but many of us CCW types spend our money & time as well, & we do NOT carry a gun for a living.
You are right. training & proper mindset are important, but without adequate trigger time, your actual shootings skills degrade. It's why SWAT shoots more than the avg LEO & why SPec Ops shoots more than their counterparts in reg service. I encourage all shooters to take some training classes. Then take your training to an IDPA match & practice. It will also help with your mindset not having to think about the gun & just deal with the tactics & the problem in front of you.

[cowboywannabe]

Originally Posted by fredj338

I am on the other side of being tired hearing how it's so diff when you get shot at. Look, if you are a poor shot on the range, you think you'll be better ina gunfight? I think not. I get tired of eharing how only LEO & military should carry guns because they have soooo much training. BS. The avg LEO goes from nothing to carrying a gun on the street in 1000rds of academy training. Then they qualify quarterly if they are lucky. In between, most do NOT practice. Those that do, yeah, their chance of surviving a gunfight will be much higher.
I'm not ripping on LEO in general, my dad was one, cousins, good friends, etc, but facts are just that. The avg LEO is barely competent w/ their handgun, as they do NOT practice, see it every weekend. Training w/o practice to maintain your skills is almost uselss. It is why there are so many shots fired with such poor results in LEO involved shootings. I understand it costs money & time, but many of us CCW types spend our money & time as well, & we do NOT carry a gun for a living.
You are right. training & proper mindset are important, but without adequate trigger time, your actual shootings skills degrade. It's why SWAT shoots more than the avg LEO & why SPec Ops shoots more than their counterparts in reg service. I encourage all shooters to take some training classes. Then take your training to an IDPA match & practice. It will also help with your mindset not having to think about the gun & just deal with the tactics & the problem in front of you.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? COPS AND MILITARY ONLY CARRYING GUNS? WHERE HAVE I SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THAT?

I SUPPORT MORE TRAINING, NOT LESS; YOU MUSTA MISSED THAT PART HUH?

ALSO HOW CAN YOU PROPERLY TRAIN BUT NOT GET ADEQUATE TRIGGER TIME?

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO A YOU VERSUS ME THING?

I STATED AND STILL MEAN, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE SHOT AT AND HAVE TO SHOOT BACK AT A BAD GUY UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE SO. UNTIL THEN ALL YOU CAN DO IS TRY TO PREPARE YOURSELF, BUT KNOW THIS; THIGS HAVE A WAY OF CHANGING WHEN THEY ACTUALLY OCCUR IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF THE TRAINING GROUND.

HERE IS A TASTE OF REAL LIFE. I WAS THERE FOR THIS ONE AND IT WASNT LIKE THE FIRST TIME I HAD TO DO IT AND IT WAS NOTHING LIKE TRAINING.

Alabama Cops Shooting - YouTube

Alabama Cops Shooting - YouTube

IVE POSTED THIS VIDEO ON HERE A FEW TIMES....I DONT KNOW HOW LONG THE WHOLE EVENT LASTED....THE WAITING, MOVING INTO POSITION, PLANNING AND ALL SEEMED LIKE FOREVER, THE GUN FIGHT SEEMED LIKE A FEW SECONDS. NEITHER WAS THE CASE.
WHAT THIS GUY'S VIDEO MISSED WAS THE FIRST VOLLEY. HE CAUGHT THE SECOND AND THIRD.

[SCmasterblaster]

Interesting video. Alabama cops shooting it out with a barricaded suspect.

[cowboywannabe]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Interesting video. Alabama cops shooting it out with a barricaded suspect.

on a side note, there were some Georgia cops there too. this area is right on the state line so the jurisdictions were all there. in this sense, there was no jurisdiction, if you had a badge and a gun you went.



he didnt stay put for long, he moved around and sniped at us for a bit before he made a run for it in the deputy's durango which was abandoned at the scene when he shot the deputy and the others had to egress the wounded out.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by cowboywannabe

on a side note, there were some Georgia cops there too. this area is right on the state line so the jurisdictions were all there. in this sense, there was no jurisdiction, if you had a badge and a gun you went.



he didnt stay put for long, he moved around and sniped at us for a bit before he made a run for it in the deputy's durango which was abandoned at the scene when he shot the deputy and the others had to egress the wounded out.

Did he get away?

[cowboywannabe]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Did he get away?

no, he got life without parole.

BTW youd be surprised at how many hits a dodge durango can take before its disabled. and even then it was a rusted out farm truck in a field that stopped it when he hit it because he ducked down to avoid being shot during the escape attempt.

speed of occurance, poor lighting, adrenaline, being shot at by a moving target (man and vehicle), poor training...... all played a part in that video.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by countrygun

The times they have changed, and not for the better I fear.

In 1980 while working on a college term paper (remember folks this was before the internet, we used things called "books") I had access to the current FBI Uniform Crime Report, in printed form. Completely fascinating and the way they broke down some of the statistics was rather useful. Sadly no one apparently can weed through todays format and pull out the numbers the way they were laid out back then. I still remember (within 1 digit I'll wager) , because it was part of my paper, the stats on,

"Shots fired per hit on intended target"

Criminals..........13

Law Enforcement Officers......9

Civilians.............1.2

That's right, civilians had a very high hit ratio back then. I did a further analysis from the data, and gee what a surprise, it seems that civilians were more often under close attack than the other two groups. There was a much higher incidence of civilians having been profiled as 'Victims" for contact level attacks by criminals so they had a slightly different mindset and a closer target. Today we would say "The ROE that civilians operate under is restricted to such an extent that the odds of a hit are greatly enhanced."

I wonder if the shots fired by civilians were in the commission of a crime, such as murder? That would account for the low ratio.

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I wonder if the shots fired by civilians were in the commission of a crime, such as murder? That would account for the low ratio.

If it involved murder, they would have been added in the "Criminal" stats. How could you be confused about that?

[Tiro Fijo]

Civilian statistics are skewed as usually those involve something very close, e.g., mugging, stickup, etc., and although it can be done with ease under duress, it is still far harder to miss someone close to you than afar with a handgun. Also, criminals act differently around citizens than they do LE.

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

Civilian statistics are skewed as usually those involve something very close, e.g., mugging, stickup, etc., and although it can be done with ease under duress, it is still far harder to miss someone close to you than afar with a handgun. Also, criminals act differently around citizens than they do LE.

Sorry, but how do you figure that is "skewed"?

That is simply the way it is.

For something to be "Skewed" assumes there is a "standard' or "norm". Civilians shootings are civilian shootings and that is the point. Nothing "Skewed" to it.

[rustytxrx]

The first few IDPA matches you shoot are pretty humbling and you know no one is shooting back.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by cowboywannabe

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? COPS AND MILITARY ONLY CARRYING GUNS? WHERE HAVE I SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THAT?

I SUPPORT MORE TRAINING, NOT LESS; YOU MUSTA MISSED THAT PART HUH?

ALSO HOW CAN YOU PROPERLY TRAIN BUT NOT GET ADEQUATE TRIGGER TIME?

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO A YOU VERSUS ME THING?

I STATED AND STILL MEAN, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE SHOT AT AND HAVE TO SHOOT BACK AT A BAD GUY UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE SO. UNTIL THEN ALL YOU CAN DO IS TRY TO PREPARE YOURSELF, BUT KNOW THIS; THIGS HAVE A WAY OF CHANGING WHEN THEY ACTUALLY OCCUR IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF THE TRAINING GROUND.

HERE IS A TASTE OF REAL LIFE. I WAS THERE FOR THIS ONE AND IT WASNT LIKE THE FIRST TIME I HAD TO DO IT AND IT WAS NOTHING LIKE TRAINING.
Alabama Cops Shooting - YouTube

IVE POSTED THIS VIDEO ON HERE A FEW TIMES....I DONT KNOW HOW LONG THE WHOLE EVENT LASTED....THE WAITING, MOVING INTO POSITION, PLANNING AND ALL SEEMED LIKE FOREVER, THE GUN FIGHT SEEMED LIKE A FEW SECONDS. NEITHER WAS THE CASE.
WHAT THIS GUY'S VIDEO MISSED WAS THE FIRST VOLLEY. HE CAUGHT THE SECOND AND THIRD.

Funny, us vs them, you vs me thing, never met a LEO yet that doesn't think that way. This is nothing personal, but you are kinda making it that. Don't get your panties in a wad. YOU made a gneral statement & so did I. Are YOU not paying attention to all the anti gun BS lately? I hear all the time how only military & LEO should carry guns.
Training vs practice. You are trained when you come out of the academy. Training & practice have almost nothing to do with each other. Practice w/o training is almost pointelss & training w/o constant practice is also all most useless. You don't get better sitting in your car or typing on the net, you get better pulling the trigger AFTER you have had some good training. YOU missed that thought I believe.
BTW all caps isn't making your point at all. I think I have made mine. I have had LE training, private training, night training, shot quals, shoot IDPA regularly, night shoots, etc. If you are a good shooter, you can NOT honestly tell me that your LE brothers are ALL up to speed? Yeah, thought so. Again, I shoot w/ LEO guys every week, some are quite good, some are barely functional on anything but a flat range. Just facts man, don't take it personal if you are not in that group, good for you. If you are, if you want to fall back on that old line about it's diff when you are shot at, well, I suggest more trigger time. As one instructor put it, when the balloon goes up, you'll be half as good in a gunfight as your best day at the range. For many, LEO & CCW, that is pretty frickking bad & shooting stats prove that.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I wonder if the shots fired by civilians were in the commission of a crime, such as murder? That would account for the low ratio.

No, virtually all civ shootings are by a single person, the shots per incident go down when the shooting is by a single officer. Still not as low as CCW but much lower than the avg per incident count.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

Civilian statistics are skewed as usually those involve something very close, e.g., mugging, stickup, etc., and although it can be done with ease under duress, it is still far harder to miss someone close to you than afar with a handgun. Also, criminals act differently around citizens than they do LE.

Not at all, many LE shooting are also very close range. I think the avg shots per for a single officer involved is around 3.5, still quite high. It is what it is guys. There are LEO that are shooters, then there are LEO that carry a gun. Big diff between the two when the SHTF.

[cowboywannabe]

Originally Posted by fredj338

Funny, us vs them, you vs me thing, never met a LEO yet that doesn't think that way. it looked like you made it that way and i questioned you as to why you did so, not my idea, yours.This is nothing personal, but you are kinda making it that. Don't get your panties in a wad. YOU made a gneral statement & so did I. Are YOU not paying attention to all the anti gun BS lately? I hear all the time how only military & LEO should carry guns. who specifically are you hearing this from?

Training vs practice. You are trained when you come out of the academy. Training & practice have almost nothing to do with each other. Practice w/o training is almost pointelss & training w/o constant practice is also all most useless. You don't get better sitting in your car or typing on the net, you get better pulling the trigger AFTER you have had some good training. YOU missed that thought I believe. youre arguing samantics, i took for granted you knew what i meant. obviously you didnt.
BTW all caps isn't making your point at all. my key board ediquette isnt up to par, read in to it what you will. caps or lower case, its spelled the same. I think I have made mine. what exactly was your point? i missed it. I have had LE training, private training, night training, shot quals, shoot IDPA regularly, night shoots, etc. If you are a good shooter, you can NOT honestly tell me that your LE brothers are ALL up to speed? Yeah, thought so. Again, I shoot w/ LEO guys every week, some are quite good, some are barely functional on anything but a flat range. Just facts man, don't take it personal if you are not in that group, good for you. If you are, if you want to fall back on that old line about it's diff when you are shot at, well, I suggest more trigger time. As one instructor put it, when the balloon goes up, you'll be half as good in a gunfight as your best day at the range. For many, LEO & CCW, that is pretty frickking bad & shooting stats prove that.

so where have i stated that one shouldnt train?, that only cops and military should have guns?,