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Old 02-19-2013, 13:28   #21
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A new to me 3" rb S&W 624.
THAT would be a nice revolver.
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Old 02-19-2013, 15:30   #22
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A new to me 3" rb S&W 624.

Perhaps the Lew Horton special"...???


But it should be able to handle 1150fps with BB ammo... That just ain't much, and even the Charter arms Bulldog can handle that. Not a real steady diet I would not think, but should should handle it fine for a few hundred, and then carry it. I see no reason yours won't be just fine !

up to you obviously, what ya carry. I do think this load I shared with ya is a good one.

I can tell ya that even the Speer 200gr 44special is a bad sucker out of a 3" barrel.

I had an opportunity once (loooong story) to shoot at and through some old houses and media at a place etc.. (long story). With a Smith 3" using the Speer Factory 44sp 200gr Gold Dot. I was 10 feet back from a plate glass window, and fired through that. The bullet went cleanly through, and traveled about 20yds, and went through two thick wooden panels, and went another 5 yds, and went into a pile aluminum siding, and insulation and a 2x4 stud, and then busted through a sheet of wall board, and went about 3yds and busted out a hunk of wood in a door post. It had a really nice mushroom as well haha...

How often do ya get to shoot through old houses / ha.


So, FWIW. I was impressed ! But this BB ammo mentioned above, would be what I would carry, or the GD i mentioned, in that "order,' if I were going to carry "factory ammo" in a 44special for human SD.




Good luck to ya
Stay safe...









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Old 02-19-2013, 18:43   #23
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With the coming gun control, these .44 Special revolvers are going to become more popular.
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Old 02-19-2013, 20:52   #24
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If you are a geezer, you learned the old police academy "Rule of Three". Three shots, three seconds, three yards. The 2" five shot revolver can answer that threat....with practice.

If pigs are any test of a caliber, the 44 special at gun fighting range works as well as any defensive caliber I have used. I have yet to find any carry pistols from 460 Rowland to 9mm that will stone a 150# pig shot thru the chest reliably.

There was a hot pursuit in the DFW area last week. The bad guy had 13 bullet wounds and is now recovering in the hospital. Last night we watched the video cams of a number of LEOs gun fights. Gun fighting is a dangerous situation. One LEO was hand to hand with a bad guy and his gun. LEO missed the bad guy once at point blank range then 17 more times when the bad guy broke and ran. I don't think I am any better than the average LEO.

The question is actually can you depend on any caliber? I suspect the answer is NO.
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Old 02-19-2013, 22:46   #25
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If you are a geezer, you learned the old police academy "Rule of Three". Three shots, three seconds, three yards. The 2" five shot revolver can answer that threat....with practice.

If pigs are any test of a caliber, the 44 special at gun fighting range works as well as any defensive caliber I have used. I have yet to find any carry pistols from 460 Rowland to 9mm that will stone a 150# pig shot thru the chest reliably.

There was a hot pursuit in the DFW area last week. The bad guy had 13 bullet wounds and is now recovering in the hospital
. Last night we watched the video cams of a number of LEOs gun fights. Gun fighting is a dangerous situation. One LEO was hand to hand with a bad guy and his gun. LEO missed the bad guy once at point blank range then 17 more times when the bad guy broke and ran. I don't think I am any better than the average LEO.

The question is actually can you depend on any caliber? I suspect the answer is NO.
sounds like shot placement was what it ought not have been.
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Old 02-19-2013, 22:58   #26
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If you are a geezer, you learned the old police academy "Rule of Three". Three shots, three seconds, three yards. The 2" five shot revolver can answer that threat....with practice.

If pigs are any test of a caliber, the 44 special at gun fighting range works as well as any defensive caliber I have used. I have yet to find any carry pistols from 460 Rowland to 9mm that will stone a 150# pig shot thru the chest reliably.

LEO missed the bad guy once at point blank range then 17 more times when the bad guy broke and ran. I don't think I am any better than the average LEO.

The question is actually can you depend on any caliber? I suspect the answer is NO.
Well, I KNOW I Am better, I shoot w/ LEO all the time. Shooting is a degrading skill. Unless you shoot every week min, your skills will degrade. It's not like riding a bike. The avg LEO fires his service weapon only @ quals, so 4x a year, 6x in a generous dept. Your skill level will never get any better shooting 6x a year & most LEO hgave the minimal skill level to carry a gun on the street. Pure fact, see it daily.
Yeah, 44sp is a great old round. When I carry my 3" M629 back packing, I down load when I hit the city w/ a 44sp equiv 250gr LHP @ 900fps. Soft lead always expands decently & rapid controlled pairs are easily done.
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Old 02-20-2013, 00:34   #27
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I'm going to handload some of these in the future when I get time:


http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.ph...roducts_id=280
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:40   #28
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Fredj, you have one thing absolutely right. It is the shooters skill and coolhead.

The caliber might matter least in the skill priority. From the vidoe being able to one handed just using your gun index sure looks important in CQB. Many of the Leo's never could get two hands on the gun. Not a lot of the cops ever got thr gun upto their eye to aim the barrel are the sights.

I was thought combat shoting by Sheriff Hugh Anderson, sheriff of Hutchison County for four decade. this was back in the early 60. He insisted that the first two shots of a combat string be fired kinda western fast draw. You shot from between your waste and chest try to have such a good index on the pistol you shot where you looked at close range. Hugh was a good man. God rest his soul. he came into my life when I was seventeen. I had just shot and killed my no good scum of the earth step farther. He had mother on the floor beating her in the face. I came in with his back to me and put a 45 LC right between his shoulder blades.....alas from the back. Had it not been for sheriff Anderson setting things straight my life would be far different
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:44   #29
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Fredj, you have one thing absolutely right. It is the shooters skill and coolhead.

The caliber might matter least in the skill priority. From the vidoe being able to one handed just using your gun index sure looks important in CQB. Many of the Leo's never could get two hands on the gun. Not a lot of the cops ever got thr gun upto their eye to aim the barrel are the sights.

I was thought combat shoting by Sheriff Hugh Anderson, sheriff of Hutchison County for four decade. this was back in the early 60. He insisted that the first two shots of a combat string be fired kinda western fast draw. You shot from between your waste and chest try to have such a good index on the pistol you shot where you looked at close range. Hugh was a good man. God rest his soul. he came into my life when I was seventeen. I had just shot and killed my no good scum of the earth step farther. He had mother on the floor beating her in the face. I came in with his back to me and put a 45 LC right between his shoulder blades.....alas from the back. Had it not been for sheriff Anderson setting things straight my life would be far different
At contact distance, wher you can only use one hand, sights are not needed. Fast draw BS aside, anytime you are outside the BG reach, the gun can come to eye level to at least index the bbl on target. Point shooters can't hit much past contact distance in a hurry. Getting the gun to eye level takes no more time than rolling the gun out oif the holster & locking the elbow down for good point shooting.
All service calibers work pretty well w/ good bullets. Bigger good bullets work a little bit better. The real problem is too many shooters worry about their ammo & not their skill level. If you can't get your gun out & a pair of good hits on target in less then 2sec, at any reasonable combat distance, you have a lot of work to do. Most LEO, can not do this. There is a reason they use so many shots in an avg gunfight, they are poor shots, that simple. A buddy of mine works for LAPD, bragging how their dept had one of the best hit ratios in the country @ 30%. Pretty pathetic when you realize 70% of those misses are heading downrange to hit innocents. Now he is a really good shooter, but his brothers in blue, most are really bad with their handguns, competent would be nice, I can't expect even better than avg from guys that don't practice.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:10   #30
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...There is a reason they use so many shots in an avg gunfight, they are poor shots, that simple...

It's a little more complicated than that. Firstly, nothing can prepare people for these things and they are never the same each time. People train with two dimensional non-moving targets for a three dimensional problem involving complex simians who are only predictable in their propensity for unpredictable violence.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:37   #31
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I'm wearing the Charter Arms right now. Great little gun.
That's right - five ready tranquillizers!
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:24   #32
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It's a little more complicated than that. Firstly, nothing can prepare people for these things and they are never the same each time. People train with two dimensional non-moving targets for a three dimensional problem involving complex simians who are only predictable in their propensity for unpredictable violence.
thank you for posting this, ive grown tired of trying to explain to folks who first havent been shot at or had to shot an armed attacker moving around....bad lighting, occurring in the blink of an eye....
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:50   #33
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thank you for posting this, ive grown tired of trying to explain to folks who first havent been shot at or had to shot an armed attacker moving around....bad lighting, occurring in the blink of an eye....
How else can one attempt to train for such an encounter? What about point shooting, ala Fairbairn/Sykes? What training would you advise, or what types of practice?

I ask not for the sake of argument, but sincerely, to learn.

thanks
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Old 02-20-2013, 13:25   #34
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How else can one attempt to train for such an encounter? What about point shooting, ala Fairbairn/Sykes? What training would you advise, or what types of practice?

I ask not for the sake of argument, but sincerely, to learn.

thanks
point shooting is a method i practice and recommend as well as using sights or "flash picture". practice must encompass all types of training.

here a neat little training exercise. take three balloon filled with regular air blown up to about the size of a steering wheel, you know the regular pear shaped ballons used at parties and what not.

in a safe environment let those balloons go on the ground during just the slightest breeze, when they are about 15 feet from you draw your holstered gun and fire until you pop them all (only takes one glancing round per balloon, not even a center hit). how many rounds did you fire? how far away was the last balloon before you hit it? how long did it take to get all three?

this will open your eyes somewhat.

edited to add: there is no training that can adequately prepare you for a real gun fight other than a real gun fight. even if you survive the first one, the next one (God forbid) wont be anything like the last one.... too many variables. all you can do is mentally prepare to do what you must.
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Old 02-20-2013, 13:48   #35
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The times they have changed, and not for the better I fear.

In 1980 while working on a college term paper (remember folks this was before the internet, we used things called "books") I had access to the current FBI Uniform Crime Report, in printed form. Completely fascinating and the way they broke down some of the statistics was rather useful. Sadly no one apparently can weed through todays format and pull out the numbers the way they were laid out back then. I still remember (within 1 digit I'll wager) , because it was part of my paper, the stats on,

"Shots fired per hit on intended target"

Criminals..........13

Law Enforcement Officers......9

Civilians.............1.2

That's right, civilians had a very high hit ratio back then. I did a further analysis from the data, and gee what a surprise, it seems that civilians were more often under close attack than the other two groups. There was a much higher incidence of civilians having been profiled as 'Victims" for contact level attacks by criminals so they had a slightly different mindset and a closer target. Today we would say "The ROE that civilians operate under is restricted to such an extent that the odds of a hit are greatly enhanced."
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Old 02-20-2013, 14:10   #36
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thank you for posting this, ive grown tired of trying to explain to folks who first havent been shot at or had to shot an armed attacker moving around....bad lighting, occurring in the blink of an eye....
I am on the other side of being tired hearing how it's so diff when you get shot at. Look, if you are a poor shot on the range, you think you'll be better ina gunfight? I think not. I get tired of eharing how only LEO & military should carry guns because they have soooo much training. BS. The avg LEO goes from nothing to carrying a gun on the street in 1000rds of academy training. Then they qualify quarterly if they are lucky. In between, most do NOT practice. Those that do, yeah, their chance of surviving a gunfight will be much higher.
I'm not ripping on LEO in general, my dad was one, cousins, good friends, etc, but facts are just that. The avg LEO is barely competent w/ their handgun, as they do NOT practice, see it every weekend. Training w/o practice to maintain your skills is almost uselss. It is why there are so many shots fired with such poor results in LEO involved shootings. I understand it costs money & time, but many of us CCW types spend our money & time as well, & we do NOT carry a gun for a living.
You are right. training & proper mindset are important, but without adequate trigger time, your actual shootings skills degrade. It's why SWAT shoots more than the avg LEO & why SPec Ops shoots more than their counterparts in reg service. I encourage all shooters to take some training classes. Then take your training to an IDPA match & practice. It will also help with your mindset not having to think about the gun & just deal with the tactics & the problem in front of you.
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Old 02-20-2013, 15:15   #37
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I am on the other side of being tired hearing how it's so diff when you get shot at. Look, if you are a poor shot on the range, you think you'll be better ina gunfight? I think not. I get tired of eharing how only LEO & military should carry guns because they have soooo much training. BS. The avg LEO goes from nothing to carrying a gun on the street in 1000rds of academy training. Then they qualify quarterly if they are lucky. In between, most do NOT practice. Those that do, yeah, their chance of surviving a gunfight will be much higher.
I'm not ripping on LEO in general, my dad was one, cousins, good friends, etc, but facts are just that. The avg LEO is barely competent w/ their handgun, as they do NOT practice, see it every weekend. Training w/o practice to maintain your skills is almost uselss. It is why there are so many shots fired with such poor results in LEO involved shootings. I understand it costs money & time, but many of us CCW types spend our money & time as well, & we do NOT carry a gun for a living.
You are right. training & proper mindset are important, but without adequate trigger time, your actual shootings skills degrade. It's why SWAT shoots more than the avg LEO & why SPec Ops shoots more than their counterparts in reg service. I encourage all shooters to take some training classes. Then take your training to an IDPA match & practice. It will also help with your mindset not having to think about the gun & just deal with the tactics & the problem in front of you.
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? COPS AND MILITARY ONLY CARRYING GUNS? WHERE HAVE I SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THAT?

I SUPPORT MORE TRAINING, NOT LESS; YOU MUSTA MISSED THAT PART HUH?

ALSO HOW CAN YOU PROPERLY TRAIN BUT NOT GET ADEQUATE TRIGGER TIME?

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO A YOU VERSUS ME THING?

I STATED AND STILL MEAN, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE SHOT AT AND HAVE TO SHOOT BACK AT A BAD GUY UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE SO. UNTIL THEN ALL YOU CAN DO IS TRY TO PREPARE YOURSELF, BUT KNOW THIS; THIGS HAVE A WAY OF CHANGING WHEN THEY ACTUALLY OCCUR IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF THE TRAINING GROUND.

HERE IS A TASTE OF REAL LIFE. I WAS THERE FOR THIS ONE AND IT WASNT LIKE THE FIRST TIME I HAD TO DO IT AND IT WAS NOTHING LIKE TRAINING.

IVE POSTED THIS VIDEO ON HERE A FEW TIMES....I DONT KNOW HOW LONG THE WHOLE EVENT LASTED....THE WAITING, MOVING INTO POSITION, PLANNING AND ALL SEEMED LIKE FOREVER, THE GUN FIGHT SEEMED LIKE A FEW SECONDS. NEITHER WAS THE CASE.
WHAT THIS GUY'S VIDEO MISSED WAS THE FIRST VOLLEY. HE CAUGHT THE SECOND AND THIRD.
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Old 02-20-2013, 16:08   #38
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Interesting video. Alabama cops shooting it out with a barricaded suspect.
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Old 02-20-2013, 16:13   #39
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Interesting video. Alabama cops shooting it out with a barricaded suspect.
on a side note, there were some Georgia cops there too. this area is right on the state line so the jurisdictions were all there. in this sense, there was no jurisdiction, if you had a badge and a gun you went.



he didnt stay put for long, he moved around and sniped at us for a bit before he made a run for it in the deputy's durango which was abandoned at the scene when he shot the deputy and the others had to egress the wounded out.
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Old 02-20-2013, 16:17   #40
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on a side note, there were some Georgia cops there too. this area is right on the state line so the jurisdictions were all there. in this sense, there was no jurisdiction, if you had a badge and a gun you went.



he didnt stay put for long, he moved around and sniped at us for a bit before he made a run for it in the deputy's durango which was abandoned at the scene when he shot the deputy and the others had to egress the wounded out.
Did he get away?
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