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Old 02-19-2013, 08:26   #126
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Originally Posted by Hedo1 View Post
I've been taught that the military is the military and the rest are civilians. One is governed by the UCOMJ and the other by civilian laws and protected by those rights (civilians). Police Officers are civilian law enforcement, in other words civilians who enforce the law. I think the slang is to refer to the public as civilians, much as other groups do.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian

Definition of CIVILIAN

1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force

b: outsider
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:32   #127
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Just because the dictionary says police aren't civilians, it doesn't make it so. The police are US citizens working on US soil enforcing US law. They are not combatants that can be deployed to foreign nations as military members are. The police fall under the same laws as those they enforce while the military has additional laws and regulations governing them.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:33   #128
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I have no problem with LaRue doing this. It's a business decision and if you disagree, you are free to take your business elsewhere. They will gain more business in the long term than from any LEOs who shop at a different site. It's also a political statement and one I happen to agree with.

The politicians are the enemy, not the manufacturer or business owner taking a stand. Does anyone honestly think that because one or two companies aren't selling to NYS, it'll adversely affect any LEO?? Even if Glock and S&W started doing the same thing, LE would survive. Are we being used as pawns? Absolutely, but I fault the politicians and not the companies. Just look at the hypocrisy coming from the politicians about guns. Heck, look at the economic information (a $85B cut in the increase in spending is a cut? On what planet is that a cut?)

If you truly believe that these companies are adversely affecting LE in NY, then boycott them. If you think they are making a statement because you and I can't, then support them.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:36   #129
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Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
Just because the dictionary says police aren't civilians, it doesn't make it so. The police are US citizens working on US soil enforcing US law. They are not combatants that can be deployed to foreign nations as military members are. The police fall under the same laws as those they enforce while the military has additional laws and regulations governing them.
Just because it's in the dictionary doesn't make it so... okay... let's make up our own definitions for stuff... you practicing to be a Democrat politician?

The view that it's military or else is a very narrow view of the word civilian which has nothing to do with the word other than the popular application.

The laws you live under doesn't matter when you think about it. Military members who are active but who are walking or driving around the city are still subject to civilian laws too.

Extending that even further, foreigners who are here are subject to American law, doesn't make them Americans. (although a lot of Democrats who need voters would think so)
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:37   #130
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Mayhem, did NY write a law to ban certain types of cars or restrict the amount of gas each one can hold while exempting the police?
After Sandy, first responders were given preferential access to fuel.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:46   #131
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After Sandy, first responders were given preferential access to fuel.
And every hurricane response including Andrew I have been involved with (while leaving my family at home to deal while I was working)..
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:47   #132
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lawman800, law enforcement are civilians. When you can get deployed to some third world crap hole as a combatant who is subject to the Geneva Conventions, then I would believe otherwise. Until then, you are a civi who enforces civi law on US soil. There is a fundamental difference between the mission of law enforcement and the mission of the military. One is to keep the peace and serve the criminal justice system of the US, the other is to meet on the field of battle, engage with and kill the enemies of the nation. It is an honorable and admirable position to be in law enforcement, but it is still a civi position.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:49   #133
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lawman800, law enforcement are civilians. When you can get deployed to some third world crap hole as a combatant who is subject to the Geneva Conventions, then I would believe otherwise. Until then, you are a civi who enforces civi law on US soil. There is a fundamental difference between the mission of law enforcement and the mission of the military. One is to keep the peace and serve the criminal justice system of the US, the other is to meet on the field of battle, engage with and kill the enemies of the nation. It is an honorable and admirable position to be in law enforcement, but it is still a civi position.
You use the term civi like it is a pejorative.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:51   #134
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IBTL for me too.

Another reason I'm glad to be in KY. Sure, we have the same bunch of libtard legislators propose sweeping gun- control legislation every year. It's always ignored and pro- gun legislation is passed instead. No gun manufacturer is going to see a political advantage to refusing Kentucky accounts.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:53   #135
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You use the term civi like it is a pejorative.
Not at all, it's just the slang that we use. Civi police, civi clothes, civi laws etc. It is how we differentiate between military and civilian. Nearly everything is implied to be related to the military when on post, so to distinguish from that which is not, we add "civi" to whatever term we are using. It's an old habit and not meant to be disrespectful.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:57   #136
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Just because the dictionary says police aren't civilians, it doesn't make it so.


Good grief. I can't believe we're having another retarded argument over the definition of "civilian." Words mean things. The dictionary defines what words mean, based in part, possibly primarily, upon common usage of the word.

Hey mods, can we make this kind of idiocy an explicit Coptalk no- no and post it in the sticky?
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:00   #137
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Hey mods, can we make this kind of idiocy an explicit Coptalk no- no and post it in the sticky?
Idiocy? Sorry pal, cops are civilians, regardless of how many sets of camouflage uniforms you may own.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:04   #138
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FOP is really not a police union.. It is a fraternal order that is supposed to represent all Officers , it does neither very well.

Local FOP's are where it is at National lost touch decades ago.
Fro starters, the FOP and the District of Columbia would agree with me and disagree with you. The FOP calls itself a "trade union". But what do they know, right?

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Old 02-19-2013, 09:07   #139
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I think we are confusing the term citizen and civillians. We are citizens first and cops second. Cops aren't civilians (well some act like it but that is a subject for another thread).
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:07   #140
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Threads like this make the liberal gun grabbers proud...........
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:11   #141
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I think we are confusing the term citizen and civillians. We are citizens first and cops second. Cops aren't civilians (well some act like it but that is a subject for another thread).
I like to rely on the wisdom of someone who has walked both paths:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-too-edition/
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:15   #142
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What about the victims and their ability to defend themselves? I would say there are THOUSANDS more of them, than their are of us who have been injured and/or killed.

When seconds count, you and I are only minutes away.
Like I said earlier, the point of my posts has nothing to do with taking away the ability of average law-abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves.

I fully recognize and support people's right to arm themselves for the protection of themselves and others.

It was asked how cops are different from your average law-abiding citizen. I was pointing out some of those differences. We take the calls to go into harms way. We respond to scenes while others run away. We face the monsters others don't want to. It's our job and our duty to do so. It's expected of us.

This does not take away anyone's right to protect themselves. But, it's the difference between cops and your average law-abiding citizen.

I know we can't be everywhere all the time. But we're the ones who get called when things go south, and we're the ones who have to clean up the mess.


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Old 02-19-2013, 09:15   #143
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Fro starters, the FOP and the District of Columbia would agree with me and disagree with you. The FOP calls itself a "trade union". But what do they know, right?
They can call it what they want ... I was a Lodge president unless you bring them in as a bargining agent it is a fraternal lodge.. that is why they are two distinct entities..
The majority of FOP members pay no money into bargining unit dues, it goes into the fraternal orginization.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:16   #144
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Threads like this make the liberal gun grabbers proud...........
I think that you're reading into what you're actually reading. Go back and read some of my previous posts.

This time with an open mind.


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Old 02-19-2013, 09:18   #145
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I like to rely on the wisdom of someone who has walked both paths:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-too-edition/
Both definitions are correct depending on the audience.

BTW I have never called anyone a Civilian....I prefer Fine citizen..or mope...
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:22   #146
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"I prefer Fine citizen..or mope..."
LOL
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:32   #147
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Reading through some of this stuff, there seems to be some confusion - intentional or not - about what's going on with these companies.

First, it seems (and I could be reading it wrong) that some folks think the companies are refusing to sell to cops AT ALL, anywhere. That's not true, it's specifically about places where some of the idiotic laws are coming through, like NY.

Second, I don't believe there's any direct "attack" on sales to police. Rather what they're saying is they're going to apply the same restrictions regarding sales to police and agencies that the general public can get.


Now, I'm not saying I agree with this - frankly, I've of the mind that the police should be able to acquire and carry whatever they feel they need to do their job safely and effectively. But it IS decision of these companies to determine how they want to run their business.

And as someone else said, it's not a statement against the police in those areas. It's a statement against those passing these laws. The idea is that the police will be put in the same position by the retailers as the average non-LEO residents* have been put in by the legislators. Again, agree or not, I think there is a valid argument to be made.



*That's a little more unwieldy than civilian or citizen, but I think it gets the point across, right?
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:07   #148
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I guess it just matters which side of the badge your on. Being a resident of NY and not a LEO I have an issue with LE getting special dispensation in regards to which laws apply to them. Previously Leo's were exempt from the 10rd mag ban and could have standard cap mags even off duty. Please don't think I'm trying to bash the Cops one of my best friends is a city cop. However if I get caught with more than seven rounds in a magazine who's going to be the person enforcing the laws passed by those playing political games with our freedom? I applaud the manufacturers that are standing up to Coumo and his commie thugs in Albany.
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You realize they are allowed to disregard traffic laws also while they are working and activate emergency lights, should car manufacturers boycott as well since you can't drive like that when you want to.
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I guess you missed the part where they were exempt even while off duty. Cops have a crap job dealing with scumbags on a regular basis I get that. I also get its a really dangerous job. But that's what they signed up for. My cousin is a corrections officer. One of my best friends did undercover stuff. They should have the best equipment available. And then we have the local dept where the former chief just got paroled last December and his son an officer in another local dept is in jail for giving out info on a witness who then got his ass beat. Yeah I know there are good cops and bad cops good citizens and bad citizens but comments like you made make it real hard for us lowly ordinary folks to have much sympathy.
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Do you not think that cops have to deal with the same idiots they arrest on duty while off duty? Do you not think they are at quite a bit more risk for retailiation from these guys? What about states/agencies that REQUIRE officers (by law or policy) to take action, even when "off duty", when certain actions occur in their presence?
RJ 71, I'm surprised you left the discussion, well, no, I'm not surprised. You got your snipes in with the ever present "family and friends" qualifier, as well as the old "its a really dangerous job. But that's what they signed up for."

Now, I'm down here in firearm friendly Virginia. We pretty much can have whatever LE carries. There are people who want that changed. They think prohibiting lawful carry will prevent violence involving firearms. We've been able to stay ahead of them through the efforts of groups like VCDL and individual citizens.

Oh yeah, my son is a Deputy Sheriff and I have a few friends in LE, too.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:09   #149
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You realize that public safety unions cannot strike, right?
Thank you for responding. When I read that, my brain literally started hurting. I believe it was as punishment for entertaining such an uninformed line of crap.

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He is spot on in my state. Lights and siren request right of way. I am still responsible for any violation of the law, resulting in an accident. I can't call what he wrote drivel
So your state doesn't have a "failure to yield to emergency vehicle" statute? Sucks to be you, I guess. If I "request" the right of way, and can cite you if you fail to give it to me, how is that not a demand, exactly?

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I think we are confusing the term citizen and civillians. We are citizens first and cops second. Cops aren't civilians (well some act like it but that is a subject for another thread).
Saadly, no matter how much you debate with logic and cite your source, some people are going to stick their fingers in their ears and scream loud as they try to baffle you with bull****.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I have only this to say: I find it disgusting that these companies would withhold lifesaving goods or services from ANYONE as a political statement.

I agree with the message they're trying to send, but not the way they are sending it. Just like I won't agree when Glock, S&W, et al. refuse to make seven round mags for guns designed to take high capactiy magazines. I realize why they're doing it, but I disagree with it on a personal level.

Hence, even after this crap has been straightened out, I won't willingly purchase from these companies again. I did it with Colt when they threatened to stop selling to "civilians" some years ago, and I see this as no different (and yes, those are sarcastic quotation marks, just to clarify). I realize these companies don't give a rat's rosy red rectum about me and my piddly little money, but this is the option I have available to me, and just as they are exercising their right to refuse to sell to cops in states where these moronic laws have been passed, I am exercising my right to purchase from someone else who won't deny my brethren lifesaving tools in the name of a political statement.

In short: screw those companies.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:13   #150
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Both definitions are correct depending on the audience.

BTW I have never called anyone a Civilian....I prefer Fine citizen..or mope...
As long s it isn't "Puke" or "Scrote" I can live with that
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