Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-2013, 13:02   #621
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 16,373
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevekozak View Post
I wonder if more citizens would do more to handle things if they were not convinced that after they did someone might show up and arrest them for it?
Arrest them for controlling their kids or using people skills to solve problems like adults. Nope.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:27   #622
James Dean
Senior Member
 
James Dean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 2,060
Blog Entries: 1
If it comes down to it the LE's are the ones who are coming for the guns, not the politicians. They will have the LE's do the dirty work for them while they hideout until its over. Most people in this country are gun owners. Some are patriots who believe in the 2nd amendment. America is a very well armed country. This could get bad in a hurry. I saw many LE's standing behind the President during his speech on gun violence. Sooner or later the police is going to have to make a choice, just as gun owners are going to have to choose. God help us all when that has to happen.
__________________
N.R.A
G.S.S.F
Certified Glock Armorer
James Dean is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:27   #623
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
I am hearing a lot of whine, but so far I'm not seeing anyone hurt.

To those who's duty weapons are, say, Glocks, do you think your Department will have any trouble doing something completely radical like oh I dunno, buying magazines from an odd source like maybe GLOCK?

C'mon, let's have a head count here,

How many officers carry a weapon either mandated or issued by their Department and how many of those Departments are unable to contact the manufacturer (Whatta ya mean you lost their address??) to obtain magazines?

How many supply their own weapons with little restrictions, but have an administration so goobered up that they won't help secure spare mags by contacting the manufacturer or another supplier?

C'mon show me the REAL hurt, don't give me theoreticals, show me how there is an officer who can't get spare mags for his duty weapon.
countrygun is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:42   #624
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevekozak View Post
I wonder if more citizens would do more to handle things if they were not convinced that after they did someone might show up and arrest them for it?
Most citizens fail to realize that the conflict resolution continuum does NOT go from 0 to 100, with nothing in between. That's the problem, isn't it? They most rely on LE to fill in the 2 to 99 (and too often up to 100) of the continuum?

But that makes for an easy excuse to throw your hands up in the air and claim there's nothing you can do.
__________________
Although many good citizens in your community may own and carry guns, keeping the community safe still fall on those who carry badges.

In a gunfight, even if you do everything right, you can still get killed.

Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 13:43..
Patchman is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:43   #625
Bonedoc
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 52
"We need to do better (collectively), agreed. I'm doing more than the average bear here. "

Yes. You are... I do much of the same and I hope we can turn some of this terrible tide.
Hang tough.
Bonedoc is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:53   #626
joeshdog
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
Cavalry Doc, you post some good replys. Cant help but think there are a few Liberals in disguise here on Glocktalk. Kingarthurhk is a good example or he just hates his job so much hes ready to explode. l love what these companies are doing. They are letting the law makers see that they're decisions are having unforeseen consequences. This stand by these businesses says something not just to NY but every other state watching. Liberals love hearing these guys criticize the people who are standing up and taking action.
Thank you for your service
joeshdog is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:57   #627
Stevekozak
Returning video
 
Stevekozak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Most citizens fail to realize that the conflict resolution continuum does NOT go from 0 to 100, with nothing in between. That's the problem, isn't it? They most rely on LE to fill in the 2 to 99 (and too often up to 100) of the continuum?

But that makes for an easy excuse to throw your hands up in the air and claim there's nothing you can do.
I'm not sure I follow you. Break that down for me again. I am not being obtuse, I really can't gather exactly what you are saying.
__________________
"You fight until you die. That's the whole deal in life. PERIOD." Regular Joe
Stevekozak is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:57   #628
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 23,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I know you are trying to help, but please stop trying to help. You're not very good at it.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.
Bruce M is online now  
Old 02-24-2013, 13:59   #629
mgs
Always Carrying
 
mgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: cogan station, pa, usa
Posts: 3,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
Another way to look at it this; the politicians are screwing the cops. The anti 2nd Amendment crowd have been trying to divide gun owners between "sensible" hunters and the "extreme" gun owners. Your placing blame on those standing up to these elected bullies show that it's working.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
That's the way I see it!
mgs is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 14:02   #630
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooledws2 View Post
Police departments are a government entity and American citizens should have access to the same equipment as the the government. Police will run into dangers in the line of duty , but it is most likely a citizen that faced the danger first and called them there. Why shouldn't they be able to face the same danger with the same equipment.

In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, or in 'stand-your-ground' states, why are the citizens of crime still calling 9-1-1? They should be helping themselves. Or if they can't help themselves, their neighbors should be helping. So why aren't fellow residents keeping their neighbors and their communities safe?

In past threads, after every school attack, people clamor for more security. I argue parents should take more responsibility for their own children's safety. Parents should volunteer as school security. In response to that, all I hear are the crickets.

People are glad when more school hire more police. And people want the same guns as the police. But people are silent when I say that local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
__________________
Although many good citizens in your community may own and carry guns, keeping the community safe still fall on those who carry badges.

In a gunfight, even if you do everything right, you can still get killed.
Patchman is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 14:33   #631
Cavalry Doc
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 42,688


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, or in 'stand-your-ground' states, why are the citizens of crime still calling 9-1-1? They should be helping themselves. Or if they can't help themselves, their neighbors should be helping. So why aren't fellow residents keeping their neighbors and their communities safe?

In past threads, after every school attack, people clamor for more security. I argue parents should take more responsibility for their own children's safety. Parents should volunteer as school security. In response to that, all I hear are the crickets.

People are glad when more school hire more police. And people want the same guns as the police. But people are silent when I say that local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
Can you point me to a place where parents have been offered the opportunity be armed guards at their children's schools, and not enough people volunteered?

That's the first I've heard of anything like that happening.

I'd be more than happy to add my name to the roster.

There are a few wacko's posting in the thread, but I'm not one of them. I do not want police hurt, or under-equipped. But I do not want average citizens under-equipped either. I don't need anyone to tell me what size magazines I need, I can figure that out on my own without any help. None of my guns are a danger to anyone other than someone that means me or mine harm first. Well, I guess they are a danger to tasty animals that I would like to have in my freezer. I tagged 3 deer and shot several feral hogs this year.

I'd have to admit, I'd probably handle anything that needed handling security wise myself. Not out of choice. I've seen more than enough people shot stabbed and blown up in my time to not want to see it ever again if given the choice. Odds are, a bad guys is not going to wait for me to place a call to 911 before I have to do something to stop them. I'd still call 911, to report the incident and arrange for pickup of the remains vs transport of the wounded. Last I heard, the local PD prefers you do that instead of burying them in the back yard. Something about shallow water tables or something like that.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-24-2013 at 14:36..
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 14:44   #632
kenpoprofessor
Senior Member
 
kenpoprofessor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ex POW in the PRK now N. Phoenix AZ
Posts: 5,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, or in 'stand-your-ground' states, why are the citizens of crime still calling 9-1-1? They should be helping themselves. Or if they can't help themselves, their neighbors should be helping. So why aren't fellow residents keeping their neighbors and their communities safe?

In past threads, after every school attack, people clamor for more security. I argue parents should take more responsibility for their own children's safety. Parents should volunteer as school security. In response to that, all I hear are the crickets.

People are glad when more school hire more police. And people want the same guns as the police. But people are silent when I say that local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
Let's see, half of the population voted for Obama, and they don't even know why, they just liked what everyone else said about him, or, they voted color over principle. Now, everyone is so brainwashed, they are either incapable of defending themselves, or, afraid to go to jail because they did.

That being said, we've been inundated with laws and lawsuits that the average citizen cannot stand their ground. Many states still don't have a stand your ground law, but like the sheep they are, most people have no idea about what it is, or what it does. Libtards call it the "make my day" law .

I see the MSM telling everyone, don't stand up for yourself, submit to the attack, call the police, or be a good witness. While that may work on occasion, it's not the mindset we'd like to see. Notice how Obama used sworn officers to make his point on gun control, that's the message he's sending. That cops are there to protect and serve because we won't allow you to have the tools you need, or the laws you need to do so.

They've given you job security, what are you complaining about?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
__________________
"Occasionally, Mr. Darwin offers a spontaneous IQ test, some people fail."
kenpoprofessor is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 14:49   #633
Bonedoc
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 52
It really needs to be said... "this is not an issue any longer about protecting ourselves or our schools or even our rights as they stand today!" It is about protecting our progeny's existence as 'free Americans' and recapturing the ideals of our Founders. We have 'lost' ground over the past forty or fifty years. I don't think it is hopeless but on the other hand this will not turn about anytime soon.

Education must be recovered even if it means nothing but 'home schooling.' Our graduates know little of why America was distinctly different and today's educators and liberal politicians tell them "America is no better than any other country!" Hogwash. We need the moral high ground even if it means the "pulpit" over the 'bully pulpit. We need to refresh the electorate with the inspirations of "One Nation Under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All"... a lot of that is tattered and lagging. This is a gun forum but the issues run greatly beyond just that (important definitely) interest.
Bonedoc is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 16:04   #634
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Let's see, half of the population voted for Obama, and they don't even know why, they just liked what everyone else said about him, or, they voted color over principle. Now, everyone is so brainwashed, they are either incapable of defending themselves, or, afraid to go to jail because they did.

That being said, we've been inundated with laws and lawsuits that the average citizen cannot stand their ground. Many states still don't have a stand your ground law, but like the sheep they are, most people have no idea about what it is, or what it does. Libtards call it the "make my day" law .

I see the MSM telling everyone, don't stand up for yourself, submit to the attack, call the police, or be a good witness. While that may work on occasion, it's not the mindset we'd like to see. Notice how Obama used sworn officers to make his point on gun control, that's the message he's sending. That cops are there to protect and serve because we won't allow you to have the tools you need, or the laws you need to do so.

They've given you job security, what are you complaining about?
Clyde
Clyde, I know you read my posts. But obviously you're not reading my posts! Do any of my posts sound like I'm concerned about my job security? Hell no!

My posts are based on my experiences, which is that people need to do more for themselves and their communities. Everyone clamors for guns like those used by their local LE, but when their neighbors need help, the silence of the crickets chirp loudly.

People are brainwashed by Obama? What do you want me to do? What do you want LE to do? LE to the rescue to deprogram?

Just for the record, in the last 33 years since I've been eligible to vote, I've never voted democrat. So don't you make excuses. Lead, follow or get the freak out of the way.
__________________
Although many good citizens in your community may own and carry guns, keeping the community safe still fall on those who carry badges.

In a gunfight, even if you do everything right, you can still get killed.

Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 20:37..
Patchman is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 16:11   #635
Ohio Copper
Senior Member
 
Ohio Copper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: The Rust Belt.
Posts: 4,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Let's see, half of the population voted for Obama, and they don't even know why, they just liked what everyone else said about him, or, they voted color over principle. Now, everyone is so brainwashed, they are either incapable of defending themselves, or, afraid to go to jail because they did.

That being said, we've been inundated with laws and lawsuits that the average citizen cannot stand their ground. Many states still don't have a stand your ground law, but like the sheep they are, most people have no idea about what it is, or what it does. Libtards call it the "make my day" law .

I see the MSM telling everyone, don't stand up for yourself, submit to the attack, call the police, or be a good witness. While that may work on occasion, it's not the mindset we'd like to see. Notice how Obama used sworn officers to make his point on gun control, that's the message he's sending. That cops are there to protect and serve because we won't allow you to have the tools you need, or the laws you need to do so.

They've given you job security, what are you complaining about?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
So you support what men like Raul Rodriguez did? Killed an innocent man over loud music?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
Quote:
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do.

Benjamin Franklin
Quote:
Just being a federally "prohibited person" who owns guns and signatures about them on the internet should be enough to keep him paranoid."
Ohio Copper is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 16:22   #636
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Can you point me to a place where parents have been offered the opportunity be armed guards at their children's schools, and not enough people volunteered?

That's the first I've heard of anything like that happening.

I'd be more than happy to add my name to the roster.
A month or so ago, when the guy kidnapped that 6 y.o. from the school bus and barricaded himself in the bunker, I posted that school buses are a weak link, and that parents can step in to protect that weakness. Without rehashing all that I posted, I specifically said that having a gun was not the priority. Being available and alert was the most important requirement.

Yeah, the law in many places forbid CCWs on school grounds. But if enough parents were concerned enough, they can cause their law makers to modify laws.

To say that "well, the current laws says we can't..." is simply making excuses. If it's important enough to parents, parents can get laws modified. Or at least, make real and sincere attempts to. Otherwise, it's just an excuse.


Quote:
There are a few wacko's posting in the thread, but I'm not one of them. I do not want police hurt, or under-equipped. But I do not want average citizens under-equipped either. I don't need anyone to tell me what size magazines I need, I can figure that out on my own without any help. None of my guns are a danger to anyone other than someone that means me or mine harm first. Well, I guess they are a danger to tasty animals that I would like to have in my freezer. I tagged 3 deer and shot several feral hogs this year.

I'd have to admit, I'd probably handle anything that needed handling security wise myself. Not out of choice. I've seen more than enough people shot stabbed and blown up in my time to not want to see it ever again if given the choice. Odds are, a bad guys is not going to wait for me to place a call to 911 before I have to do something to stop them. I'd still call 911, to report the incident and arrange for pickup of the remains vs transport of the wounded. Last I heard, the local PD prefers you do that instead of burying them in the back yard. Something about shallow water tables or something like that.
Never thought you were a wacko.

But if the citizens want the same guns as the police, then lets start seeing some of them use those same guns to help their neighbors. The more people who take action (including and up to using their guns-those same guns as their local LE) to keep their neighbors and communities safer, the stronger the argument for 2A. (Does that make sense? )
__________________
Although many good citizens in your community may own and carry guns, keeping the community safe still fall on those who carry badges.

In a gunfight, even if you do everything right, you can still get killed.

Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 16:32..
Patchman is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 16:29   #637
Vigilant
Senior Member
 
Vigilant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Inside the Perimeter
Posts: 8,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
A month or so ago, when the guy kidnapped that 6 y.o. from the school bus and barricaded himself in the bunker, I posted that school buses are a weak link, and that parents can step in to protect that weakness. Without rehashing all that I posted, I specifically said that having a gun was not the priority. Being available and alert was the most important requirement.

Yeah, the law in many places forbid CCWs on school grounds. But if enough parents were concerned enough, they can cause their law makers to modify laws.

To say that "well, the current laws says we can't..." is simply making excuses. If it's important enough to parents, parents can get laws modified. Otherwise, it's just an excuse.




Never thought you were a wacko.

But if the citizens want the same guns as the police, then lets start seeing some of them use those same guns to help their neighbors. The more people who take action (including and up to using their guns-those same guns as their local LE) to keep their neighbors and communities safer, the stronger the argument for 2A. (Does that make sense? )
I believe part of the problem with some being hesitant to step in and help others has to do with our sue-happy society. That, and fear of unjust prosecution.
__________________
Illegitimi non carborundum
Vigilant is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 16:49   #638
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
I believe part of the problem with some being hesitant to step in and help others has to do with our sue-happy society. That, and fear of unjust prosecution.
Yes, I fully understand that.

But the conflict resolution continuum does not go from 1 to 100, with no in between. What this means is that it does not go from "Help me, I'm a victim" to "I'll kill them all." Steps 2 to 99 means there are other ways to deal with things. And, yeah, ultimately, you might have to use your the gun. But if you offer all sorts of excuses as to why you did nothing, then the argument as to why you need the same gun as your local LE sounds hollow.

Don't know if that makes sense.
__________________
Although many good citizens in your community may own and carry guns, keeping the community safe still fall on those who carry badges.

In a gunfight, even if you do everything right, you can still get killed.

Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 16:56..
Patchman is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 17:06   #639
Vigilant
Senior Member
 
Vigilant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Inside the Perimeter
Posts: 8,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Yes, I fully understand that.

But the conflict resolution continuum does not go from 1 to 100, with no in between. What this means is that it does not go from "Help me, I'm a victim" to "I'll kill them all." Steps 2 to 99 means there are other ways to deal with things. And, yeah, ultimately, you might have to use your the gun. But if you offer all sorts of excuses as to why you did nothing, then the argument as to why you need the same gun as your local LE sounds hollow.

Don't know if that makes sense.
Kinda sorta, but I don't think every citizen has that same mentality. I suspect most of what you are talking about comes from people who have never been worth a crap at living responsibly and handling their own business, and probably never will be. Not good candidates for gun ownership IMO, but how do we draw the line in such cases?
__________________
Illegitimi non carborundum
Vigilant is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 17:20   #640
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
Kinda sorta, but I don't think every citizen has that same mentality. I suspect most of what you are talking about comes from people who have never been worth a crap at living responsibly and handling their own business, and probably never will be. Not good candidates for gun ownership IMO, but how do we draw the line in such cases?
IDK either. But on the internet, they can post their opinions the same as anyone else.

IMHO, the last generation who took personal responsibility seriously were those born around the 1920s-1930s (the Depression and then lived/fought through WW2 & Korea).
__________________
Although many good citizens in your community may own and carry guns, keeping the community safe still fall on those who carry badges.

In a gunfight, even if you do everything right, you can still get killed.
Patchman is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:25.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 962
255 Members
707 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31