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Old 02-23-2013, 22:11   #581
Cavalry Doc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
This stunt appeals to emotion rather than reason. Police do have more rights and should have more rights to do their job then the rest of us - this is what our society has decided a long time ago. Doctors have right to prescribe medicine - other people don't. Military have more rights (i.e., access to powerful weaponry) that other people don't. I'm tired of hearing this stupid equivalence argument: "well if military has nuclear bombs, then I have a right to have one, too." It's so stupid, it hurts.
On the job is much different than off duty. On post, military cannot carry concealed weapons, even with a license, even when on duty. If they were allowed to, Hasan would probably have not killed so many.

Off duty, we are all civilians. I'm not for any special treatment for any of us.

I have a right to have my LR-308 AP4. It's main purpose is to serve as my primary Feral Hog hunting rifle. 5.56 is a bit too small for those things. Feral hogs can weigh over 400 pounds, and run in family packs of up to 30. I am also walking around in the dark while hunting, and we do have mountain lions here.

No, I don't need a flame thrower or 80mm mortar. But I sure as heck want to keep my 20 round mags.
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:18   #582
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It's not as if all new yorkers are liberal airheads. Many are conservative hard working Americans, that deserve to have a fair chance at defending themselves.
I understand that. However, NYC is still in NYS. What affects one affects the other.

While I'm no expert on the inner-workings of NYS politics, I would assume that NYC only has a certain number of state representatives, compared to the rest of the state.

The liberal city folks might be able to elect the governor of their choice, but getting stupid laws passed by their representatives alone shouldn't be quite so easy.




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Old 02-23-2013, 22:20   #583
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Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
I understand that. However, NYC is still in NYS. What affects one affects the other.

While I'm no expert on the inner-workings of NYS politics, I would assume that NYC only has a certain number of state representatives, compared to the rest of the state.

The liberal city folks might be able to elect the governor of their choice, but getting stupid laws passed by their representatives alone shouldn't be quite so easy.




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I'd move. But I do know some good up-staters there.

I support anyone that opposes the NYS 7 round mag restrictions.
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:25   #584
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Originally Posted by maestrogustav View Post
Citizens go up against BGs every single day. Statistically less often, I'll grant you. But when you are called to the scene of a crime, 99 percent of the time it is after the fact. Meanwhile, the victim WAS the scene of the crime. And he was there. You weren't.
In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, why do the citizens of crime still need to call 9-1-1? Why aren't residents keeping their neighbors and communities safe?



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We want you to have all the gear necessary for your next crack house raid. We want you to go home safe. But if you stand around with your mouth shut as your constiuents are disarmed, while picking up your LT OBR with a letter on PD stationery, many of us say nothing more than good luck to you.
Again, in states where no permits are required, and in 'shall issue' states, why do the citizens of any community need to call 9-1-1 about drug houses? They have the same guns carried by their local LEOs, AND private citizens do not have 4th Amendment issues to worry about.

Local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:32   #585
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, why do the citizens of crime still need to call 9-1-1? Why aren't residents keeping their neighbors and communities safe?





Again, in states where no permits are required, and in 'shall issue' states, why do the citizens of any community need to call 9-1-1 about drug houses? They have the same guns carried by their local LEOs, AND private citizens do not have 4th Amendment issues to worry about.
In TX, that has already happened a couple of times.

Try to understand, these companies taking this position will not prevent a single LEO in NYS from keeping the 15 and 30 round mags they already have.

How many times will that have to be pointed out?
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:39   #586
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The police should not have access to weapons that are forbidden from the citizens. The police are civilians too and as such, any restriction for nonuniformed civilians should apply across the board. The politicians see the police as their personal army and often outfit them as such. The only reason I can think of why, is that they want the police to serve as a deterent against the citizens should the people finally decide that enough is enough.

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Nailed it. Their lives aren't worth more than ours. We both deserve the best weapons to defend ourselves.
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:40   #587
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Red headed step children.

Yeah, I don't agree with that either. Every assaulted patient you report to see, is laying in a dangerous place. After all, just a few moments before the 911 call, someone was actually hurt on that very spot.

At least when I was a first responder, I had armor (tanks) and close air support. There is nothing like having good friends with superior fire power. I got pinned down once. We called for help, and I had Abrams, bradleys, a squad of infantry, and three Apaches show up in about 5 minutes. They were all buzzing like angry bees, and the guys shooting at us didn't last long at all. It was hard to give a body count, the pieces were small and spread around.

Be safe out there, you are the bravest of the brave, you go where there is need without arms. I'm not in agreement with that, but it is what it is.

Sounds rather odd. When dealing with set issues, its great to know the well armed Infantry are well armed. Then to feel bad for those that cant be armed, yet most city's send in the Police prior to EMT's to make it safe for them.

FWIW I spent 22 year in the Infantry from Panama to OIF 11, did a lot of fighting in front line units and you know what, police work I feel has a greater risk and needs better equipment.

But me being a police officer and you being a PA or what ever, we might see things different.

Maybe if the DEA were to make a law that PA's can not touch, handle, or have access to any controlled medication and can only deal with OTC type meds, that might make you think the DEA is being silly. I mean only the patient can get and take their own meds. Thats treating everyone the same when it comes to drugs right? I mean if the script is not your name, felony drug possession charges. It would be just like a federal violation of firearms for police. Your taking away a something that will cost lives.

Be honest, how would you feel knowing any patients you deal with must get their own meds and you can not touch the meds. If they are in a bed, to bad, you can touch meds. Because expecting police to go into harms way to deal with criminals that have weapons that are illegal and not making and exception for them is silly. Just like expecting a PA to treat people without access to needed medication.

At 17 years old I was legally shooting full auto weapons, rockets, mortars, tossing grenades, 4 years later I could go to a bar a legally have a beer.

I cant say I trust everyone with a weapon, but knowing how easy it was to be a soldier and how hard it is to be a police officer, we should support the police having the tools to deal with the bad guys. You have to worry about yourself and your family's safety, the police have to worry about the whole city. What would guess the odds are of say you being envolved in a violent crime vs a police responding to violent crime?

Police keep Americans safer than our Military, and that is the truth. So you do dont support set people to have the tools they need to do their job? You dont think due to the job some do they should not get set special equipment?
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:44   #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, why do the citizens of crime still need to call 9-1-1? Why aren't residents keeping their neighbors and communities safe?





Again, in states where no permits are required, and in 'shall issue' states, why do the citizens of any community need to call 9-1-1 about drug houses? They have the same guns carried by their local LEOs, AND private citizens do not have 4th Amendment issues to worry about.

Local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
Wow, you're gonna use that tired argument?

The laws have hobbled "community efforts" of policing. Hell, Ronald Reagan signed the Mulford Act while he was gov. of CA to keep the blacks from protecting themselves.

I've only seen a few Police Chiefs or Sheriffs tell the citizens to engage criminals if they need to, but 95% of them, and most of the people here, tell you "call the police,it's their job". Most citizens have now abdicated their responsiblilities to another source, Peace Officers and Sheriffs, and they happily have the taxes removed from their paychecks for their usual sheepish nonchalance' .

Vigilante justice is sometimes what's needed, in fact, I'd like to see a Star Chamber again.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 02-23-2013, 22:46   #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Wow, you're gonna use that tired argument?

The laws have hobbled "community efforts" of policing. Hell, Ronald Reagan signed the Mulford Act while he was gov. of CA to keep the blacks from protecting themselves.

I've only seen a few Police Chiefs or Sheriffs tell the citizens to engage criminals if they need to, but 95% of them, and most of the people here, tell you "call the police,it's their job". Most citizens have now abdicated their responsiblilities to another source, Peace Officers and Sheriffs, and they happily have the taxes removed from their paychecks for their usual sheepish nonchalance' .

Vigilante justice is sometimes what's needed, in fact, I'd like to see a Star Chamber again.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
I'm tired of reading posts about how CCL/CWP/CHL holders are the some magical cure to all of societies ills and can do the job that cops can't.

I'm a STRONG supporter of allowing average law-abiding citizens carry. But, I've also seen more than a handful who crapped the bed when the chips were down in a real life situation.

I've worked 5 violent crime investigations as a Detective that involved CHL holders as victims. None of them used their right to protect themselves. Two weren't carrying, one was but didn't pull his gun, one got into a stand off with the suspect (they stood there pointing their guns at each other) and then still gave the BG his wallet and phone (while holding his gun in his hand). The last one got his gun taken away and used against him.

In my 13 years as a cop, I've yet to respond to a call in which a CHL holder used their gun to defend themselves, much less a third party.

I've worked numerous OIS in which officers did.... I have myself.

I support people's right to protect themselves, but lets not confuse ourselves. Most who exercise that right don't have the mindset to protect themselves, much less anyone else.

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Old 02-23-2013, 22:59   #590
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
In TX, that has already happened a couple of times.
A couple of times is a start.


Quote:
Try to understand, these companies taking this position will not prevent a single LEO in NYS from keeping the 15 and 30 round mags they already have.

How many times will that have to be pointed out?
You don't have to convince me. I fully agree it's those companies' right to make a statement like this.
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Last edited by Patchman; 02-23-2013 at 23:19..
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Old 02-23-2013, 23:08   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Wow, you're gonna use that tired argument?

The laws have hobbled "community efforts" of policing. Hell, Ronald Reagan signed the Mulford Act while he was gov. of CA to keep the blacks from protecting themselves.

I've only seen a few Police Chiefs or Sheriffs tell the citizens to engage criminals if they need to, but 95% of them, and most of the people here, tell you "call the police,it's their job". Most citizens have now abdicated their responsiblilities to another source, Peace Officers and Sheriffs, and they happily have the taxes removed from their paychecks for their usual sheepish nonchalance' .

Vigilante justice is sometimes what's needed, in fact, I'd like to see a Star Chamber again.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
Sounds like a perfect excuse to throw your hands up and say you can't do anything, Clyde...
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Old 02-23-2013, 23:10   #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav View Post
Sounds rather odd. When dealing with set issues, its great to know the well armed Infantry are well armed. Then to feel bad for those that cant be armed, yet most city's send in the Police prior to EMT's to make it safe for them.

FWIW I spent 22 year in the Infantry from Panama to OIF 11, did a lot of fighting in front line units and you know what, police work I feel has a greater risk and needs better equipment.

But me being a police officer and you being a PA or what ever, we might see things different.

Maybe if the DEA were to make a law that PA's can not touch, handle, or have access to any controlled medication and can only deal with OTC type meds, that might make you think the DEA is being silly. I mean only the patient can get and take their own meds. Thats treating everyone the same when it comes to drugs right? I mean if the script is not your name, felony drug possession charges. It would be just like a federal violation of firearms for police. Your taking away a something that will cost lives.

Be honest, how would you feel knowing any patients you deal with must get their own meds and you can not touch the meds. If they are in a bed, to bad, you can touch meds. Because expecting police to go into harms way to deal with criminals that have weapons that are illegal and not making and exception for them is silly. Just like expecting a PA to treat people without access to needed medication.

At 17 years old I was legally shooting full auto weapons, rockets, mortars, tossing grenades, 4 years later I could go to a bar a legally have a beer.

I cant say I trust everyone with a weapon, but knowing how easy it was to be a soldier and how hard it is to be a police officer, we should support the police having the tools to deal with the bad guys. You have to worry about yourself and your family's safety, the police have to worry about the whole city. What would guess the odds are of say you being envolved in a violent crime vs a police responding to violent crime?

Police keep Americans safer than our Military, and that is the truth. So you do dont support set people to have the tools they need to do their job? You dont think due to the job some do they should not get set special equipment?
There are a couple of flaws in your analogy. First, NYS is in the process of exempting all of it's LEO's, including retired LEO's from the AWB and 7 round mag requirement. There is no law restricting the firearms for LEO's in NYS, they were able to have an exemption carved out for them.

Second, these companies taking this position are not taking anything away from anyone, including the LEO's. LEO's will have full access to everything they have now on the job.

These companies taking this position will not stop any LEO agency from getting what they need either. There will be at least one company that will sell to NYS LEO's, and even if there were not, other LEO agencies would make sure NYS LEO's got whatever they need.

So, please, stop pretending that this is anything more than a political statement, one that is an attention getter. Also, don't pretend that I think police should not have what they need on the job. They will have it even with these companies taking this stand.

You aren't in any danger at all over this policy. But if you would like to support the law abiding citizens in NYS, write a letter or two, maybe even a check. Give them a hand.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-23-2013 at 23:14..
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Old 02-23-2013, 23:48   #593
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Did anyone ever protest about Ruger when Ruger refused to sell high cap Mini14 mags?

Why not?
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:02   #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Did anyone ever protest about Ruger when Ruger refused to sell high cap Mini14 mags?

Why not?
I wrote them a letter and swore I'd never buy another Ruger ever again. That left an ugly mark on them for a long time in my book (I have since bought an LCP and still have my single six & 10/22, but nearly sold them over that). Judging by their outspoken support of the NRA at SHOT, I'm guessing they learned their lesson.

BTW - No Internet or social media at that time. I think that's the biggest difference between the previous AWB and current.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:21   #595
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All of these arguments and in-fighting between ourselves mean NOTHING. Because the BIG PICTURE here is We the Sheeple (and I mean ANYONE who doesn't regularly call or email their own politicians), We the Sheeple have ignored and neglected to hold our politicians to this very important standard:

"Congress shall make no law which will not have its full operation on themselves and their friends, as well as the mass of society."

- James Madison, Founding Father
source: The Federalist

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:47   #596
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Why am I, honest hard working gun owner being punished for the actions of crazy people with guns??
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:01   #597
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Why am I, honest hard working gun owner being punished for the actions of crazy people with guns??
Have you called and emailed your local, state, and national politicians? Have you sat your family & friends down to do the same?

If you haven't, then look into the mirror and you'll find your answer.

I email mine all the time on issues. They DO want to hear from you. In fact, I got these replies Thursday when I emailed my state senator Jack Brandenburg when I asked him if Michigan was initiating legislation to prevent Obama's intrusion on our 2nd Amendment rights. He replied:

From:
"The Office of Senator Brandenburg" <SenJBrandenburg@senate.michigan.gov>

Yes, there is legislation introduced and I am happy to say I co-sponsored it.

Constitutionally the only thing Michigan can regulate above federal law is on things that exclusively take place in Michigan. What we did is submit a bill that will exempt all Michigan made guns from any federal legislation. I know it might not be the best answer but it is the most legal one and one that would benefit us. If other state follow suit I think it would be helpful.

Thank you for your support!

Sincerely,

Jack Brandenburg

THEN I followed up and asked him if anyone in the Michigan Legislature contacted Magpul to see if they would be interested in moving to Michigan with its rich factory and firearms/hunting heritages.

He responded back with:

From:
"The Office of Senator Brandenburg" <SenJBrandenburg@senate.michigan.gov>

I signed this letter Senator Green wrote and sent to Magpul.

(See attached)


I sent him a final "thank you" for continued vigorous support of our Michigan outdoors, conservation efforts and our Second Amendment rights. So you see, all it takes its a 2 minute email.

DY

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Old 02-24-2013, 09:06   #598
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Originally Posted by Simpleman71 View Post
Why am I, honest hard working gun owner being punished for the actions of crazy people with guns??
That's a good question. Why are you asking it to a bunch of cops on an Internet message board, instead of your elected officials?


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Old 02-24-2013, 09:16   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpleman71 View Post
Why am I, honest hard working gun owner being punished for the actions of crazy people with guns??
That's the politicians fault.

It's human nature to not be quite as upset when your neighbors ox is gored, than you are when your ox is gored.

I think that is the motivation of the companies making this stand. It turns the table slightly. There will be no real reduction in any gear that front line on the job LEO's have, but it sure got a lot of attention, didn't it.

It's a tool for change.

If you want the easy way to contact all of your reps at once, see the links in my sigline. I write at least a little note daily. I don't have any illusions that my reps are reading my messages, but they are being counted, that much I am sure of. I've also taken the step of going to DC and meeting with the staff of my reps on the hill. Not everyone can do that, but I had the opportunity so took it.

We should all be doing what we can.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:24   #600
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Is it "Just" Guns or Does It Run Deeper?

This discussion is a wonderful exercise in Sun Tzu's concepts of war. Is LE (all) the culprit? Do they deserve being isolated and denied? The gun haters...?

Start at the top of the issue that is being used not only to divide but to engage while behind the curtains there is much going on that will undermine all of our "Natural Rights."

America is in the grip of "rulers" who comprise the spearhead of an attack on the 230+ years of our 'decreasing' freedoms. I think many of the points made in this discussion are salient but in reality, and as great as our numbers are, we (as gun owners, shooters, etc) comprise only a minority part of what makes up America.

The current effort at limiting aspects of firearms ownership (all of them) are slights of hand while these radical socialists entrench their full agenda of "America's destruction" into our laws. Of course the ability to 'defend ourselves' must be eradicated but they cannot do that completely so they will instill division between (if it isn't already marked enough), for instance, LE and the community, hunters and tactical shooters, long gun vs. short gun...

The rules of industry are such that a company can refuse service to whomever they wish as long as that refusal is not consider legally prejudicial (the old segregated bathrooms, etc).

Of course this is a gun forum but does anyone really think this Administration, or even parts of what we call 'conservative' administrations in the past, are supportive of "all" our Constitutional Democracy's rights? Doubt it...

Ben Franklin..
"Sir, there are two passions which have a powerful influence in the affairs of men. These are ambition and avarice—the love of power and the love of money. Separately, each of these has great force in prompting men to action; but, when united in view of the same object, they have, in many minds, the most violent effects.... (and the part that I consider very concerning)... I am apprehensive, therefore—perhaps too apprehensive—that the government of the States may, in future times, end in a monarchy. But this catastrophe, I think, may be long delayed, if in our proposed system we do not sow the seeds of contention, faction, and tumult, by making our posts of honor places of profit. If we do, I fear that, tho we employ at first a number and not a single person, the number will, in time, be set aside; it will only nourish the fetus of a king (as the honorable gentleman from Virginia very aptly expressed it), and a king will the sooner be set over us."

[Quoted from "The 5000 Year Leap" by Skousen (who wrote the "Naked Communist", a book every gun owner should read)]

I don't see the street cop suffering from companies legally denying "some" states the ability to purchase what those states deny the common citizen. But I also wonder if the Feds will actually enter into 'manufacturing' their own materials (they have often in the past by 'taking over' by executive order that industry) and side stepping?

Does anyone really think that this is going to end nicely?

Last edited by Bonedoc; 02-24-2013 at 09:29..
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