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Old 02-23-2013, 11:59   #541
Kingarthurhk
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
If you think about it, it's a protection from liability for the companies doing this. What if they fell for fraudulent credentials and sold a restricted item to a bad guy, then the bad guy used that in a crime that injured another. They may be open to a tort claim due to not taking due diligence in ensuring the sale was made to an authorized individual.

Easiest thing to do, is only sell things that are legal for anyone in the state to own.

37 companies and counting. Some of them are rather large and well known. At least 3 are frequently seen on TV.

Good for them.
That is just silly. Regular officer sales cannot be made without verifiable agency/department letter head.

Those sales don't include NFA weapons.

Departments/Agencies negotiate contracts with manufacturers to buy in bulk.

The tiny distrubters and fly-by-nighters just want free publicity.

The main manufacturers are out for lucrative contracts. Those are the folks that buy in bulk.

Further, for Agencies and Departments to obtain NFA weapons, that has to all be cleared and verified by the BATFE.

So, there is no "oppsies" involved by the folks of Colt, Smith and Wesson, Glock, etc.

The hierachy for manufacturers has been and always will be the following:

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

Ammunition works in the same vein.

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

The shortage has to do with the panic of the folks in item number 3.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:26   #542
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
As to Olympic Arms, I suspect they are trying to get attention and drum up business...
It's often said, "Do not support those who do not support us," usually referencing businesses with "NO FIREARMS" signs on their doors.

Supporting gun owners should result in more business.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:50   #543
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
That is just silly. Regular officer sales cannot be made without verifiable agency/department letter head.

Those sales don't include NFA weapons.

Departments/Agencies negotiate contracts with manufacturers to buy in bulk.

The tiny distrubters and fly-by-nighters just want free publicity.

The main manufacturers are out for lucrative contracts. Those are the folks that buy in bulk.

Further, for Agencies and Departments to obtain NFA weapons, that has to all be cleared and verified by the BATFE.

So, there is no "oppsies" involved by the folks of Colt, Smith and Wesson, Glock, etc.

The hierachy for manufacturers has been and always will be the following:

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

Ammunition works in the same vein.

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

The shortage has to do with the panic of the folks in item number 3.
Midway USA, Cheaper than Dirt and a few others are far from fly-by-night companies.

I've already told you how this action being taken will cause no problems for on the job military or law enforcement.

Why are you resistant to these companies expressing support for their customers?

It won't hurt you. I won't hurt LEO or military on the job in NYS, and it gets attention.

It's a win-win. I've never been in favor of special carve out exemptions for the special few. Instead of complaining about civilians, get on board and write a few letters, maybe even a check, and lets try to get NYS to back off their bad idea.
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:22   #544
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More On The Line Than Just Guns

Talk about a "hot" subject!
Law enforcement is not one 'big happy family' and perhaps never has been... of late however there are some in big city (and probably small that we don't hear about) who 'sidle up to the political left' posing for opportunity (and perhaps advancement) with politicians who do not have America's best interests or future in mind. Self-serving politicians and, probably, self-serving Chiefs. The foot soldier cop has his hands full trying to walk the tightrope that has been stretched taut and dangerous by the 'very' same politicians that their 'Chief' is now buddy-buddy with. There are only a handful of states where this behavior is rampant and it 'appears' that it is to those entities that these "companies" will refuse sales.

Part of this is preservation. If "all" the gun restrictions that are being pushed by these self-serving (and IMHO Anti-American) pols and their 'Chief' buddies pass than a gigantic segment of the firearms, ammo and peripheral business will go belly up. And if that does happen we'll be back to square one, "who will there be to sell to LE and other agencies?"

This issue is "more" than just us shooters vs "gun haters/takers" but runs to the fundamentals of our national existence. And the broadside against 'gun rights' is being done concurrently with overspending that will cripple our future, under-education and party specific education that will ensure a progressive agenda for many generations. We will be a third world nation in ten to fifteen years if this juggernaut of radical socialism is not slowed and turned. One by one the Rights guaranteed thru the "Natural Laws" are being attacked and stripped away. Soon we'll be arguing about a cave gap.
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:53   #545
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Careful. Your hypocrisy is showing. You and I both agreed sometime ago that the NFA is a 2A infringement. Yet here you are advocating infringement for a specific segment of society.

Did you kenpo yourself in the head last we dialogued?
Seriously, this is how you think???? They're private companies, they don't have the power of the legislature to curtail my rights.

If you think that's infringement on your part, you're crazy.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:08   #546
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Midway USA, Cheaper than Dirt and a few others are far from fly-by-night companies.

I've already told you how this action being taken will cause no problems for on the job military or law enforcement.

Why are you resistant to these companies expressing support for their customers?

It won't hurt you. I won't hurt LEO or military on the job in NYS, and it gets attention.

It's a win-win. I've never been in favor of special carve out exemptions for the special few. Instead of complaining about civilians, get on board and write a few letters, maybe even a check, and lets try to get NYS to back off their bad idea.
How is it a win win? I suspect you would feel differently, if companies came out and said, we are anti-miliatry.

You and very vet would be beating their chest.

I am sorry, but when people blame Law Enforcement for the mess, they themselves as voters, who consistantly put the liberals in power who made all these laws I have no sympathy.

To me it is like a congregation voting in ministers who are pro-gay marriage. The clergy then hold a gay marriage ceremony. The congregation is so incesensed they beat the janitor.

The people of NY have constistantly voted liberal. Now, they are angry at work-a-day guys that put their lives ont he line for the ungreatful, who had nothing to do with the choices the voters of NY made for themselves.

NYPD didn't put Cuomo in office. The citizens of NY did that. Yet suddenly it is NYPD's fault?

That's beyond stupid.
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:15   #547
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Seriously, this is how you think???? They're private companies, they don't have the power of the legislature to curtail my rights.

If you think that's infringement on your part, you're crazy.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
Well, since we have already played the race card once today. Let me give you a scenario and see how just you think it is.

Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country. The majority of those crimes are committed by Afirican Americans.

So, to make a stand against homocides predmonately commited by firearms, pedominately commited by Afirican Americans in Chicago, should companies then be allowed to say they will not sell to Afircan Americans and that they must present proof of ethnicity prior to purchase?

That makes more sense than saying that companies will not seel to LEO's.

So, would you get behind companies doing that?

You seem to be behind denying people who are willing to put their lives on the line for people like you who:

1. Don't appreciate it.
2. Would rather spit on them.

Yes, I do recall you jumping all over a retired NYPD cop for daring to retire in your state and having a pension, so I think item number 2 is applicable.

So, please, share your further thoughts on companies refusing to sell to certain segments of soceity.
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:35   #548
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Well, since we have already played the race card once today. Let me give you a scenario and see how just you think it is.

Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country. The majority of those crimes are committed by Afirican Americans.

So, to make a stand against homocides predmonately commited by firearms, pedominately commited by Afirican Americans in Chicago, should companies then be allowed to say they will not sell to Afircan Americans and that they must present proof of ethnicity prior to purchase?

That makes more sense than saying that companies will not seel to LEO's.

So, would you get behind companies doing that?

You seem to be behind denying people who are willing to put their lives on the line for people like you who:

1. Don't appreciate it.
2. Would rather spit on them.

Yes, I do recall you jumping all over a retired NYPD cop for daring to retire in your state and having a pension, so I think item number 2 is applicable.

So, please, share your further thoughts on companies refusing to sell to certain segments of soceity.
1. I haven't played the race card, and have no idea what you're talking about.

2. I have never had occasion to utilize the services of police in 50+ years, so they've never put their lives on the line for me. I served 11 honorable years in the USAF, and I put myself in that category to serve my family and the American people.

3. I have some pretty close friends that are both cops and federal agents, so no I don't want to spit on them, just some.

4. A "PRIVATE" business should not have the government tell them who they have to appease regarding race, color, creed, sexual orientation, or religious views. It is the nautre of the free enterprise system to weed discrimination out, but government gets involved and screws that up as well.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 02-23-2013, 15:23   #549
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Yes it is quite clear you fail to see the forrest through the trees.

No blame shifts my opinion is as valid as yours, this is a feel good ploy, if they were serious about gun rights they should boycott at the federal level. It does not effect me one bit I enjoy pointing out the hypocritical nature of it...you are the pawn here.
I agree with many of your points (the hypocracy and such)...I am no pawn. I've never stood behind anything for my company/profession that I didn't support/agree with...you may have not either, but of those LEO/FF/EMS who do those photo-ops, many have. And again, all of them are used as pawns, not saying hey all ARE pawns. When the governor/president/etc. all say they will cut police/fire/ems first if they don't get their tax increases or whatever else they want, that is using them as pawns.

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Old 02-23-2013, 15:28   #550
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian

Definition of CIVILIAN

1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force

b: outsider
Once again, the EMS gets screwed. lol.

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Old 02-23-2013, 15:45   #551
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How is it a win win? I suspect you would feel differently, if companies came out and said, we are anti-miliatry.

You and very vet would be beating their chest.

I am sorry, but when people blame Law Enforcement for the mess, they themselves as voters, who consistantly put the liberals in power who made all these laws I have no sympathy.

To me it is like a congregation voting in ministers who are pro-gay marriage. The clergy then hold a gay marriage ceremony. The congregation is so incesensed they beat the janitor.

The people of NY have constistantly voted liberal. Now, they are angry at work-a-day guys that put their lives ont he line for the ungreatful, who had nothing to do with the choices the voters of NY made for themselves.

NYPD didn't put Cuomo in office. The citizens of NY did that. Yet suddenly it is NYPD's fault?

That's beyond stupid.
KA,

You need to take a step back and rationally examine the situation. You are emotionally overplaying this issue into much more than it really is. Where's those Dragnet guys when you need them, Just the facts... Look at JUST THE FACTS.

None of these companies are anti-LEO. They are anti-unreasonable gun control government. We've established that there will be no harm whatsoever to military or LEO's on the job. That equipment already exists on site, and none of them are being told to destroy it, turn it in, or send it out of state like the civilians in NYS are being forced to do.

The state Government of New York is anti civilian. They are setting up a scenario where law abiding civilians will be limited to 7 round mags, but police and crooks can have any size mags they want to have. So, remember, just the facts, who is being screwed here? It's not the crooks. It's not the cops. It's all the regular civilians that all of us are supposed to be caring about.

If you need a reality check, here it is. If NYS had carved out a special exemption for LEO and retired LEO, and Active Duty and Retired Military, I would still be against it.

Considering that you are ignoring that no military or LEO on the job will be inconvenienced by the action these companies are taking, it is only reasonable to assume that you are getting your panties in a square knotted bunch because you are upset that LEO's off duty aren't being given special status and rights that normal citizens are being denied.

When it was my job to defend Americans, I saw them as the bosses, not the peasant serfs. Is that the difference?


If I've got you all wrong, please, correct me, but you have been ignoring very specific and pertinent information given to you and still been incensed in a hard to understand way for a while now. At this point, arrogant hypocrisy is about all I have to go with for your motivation here.

I want cops to be able to own 30 round mags at home too. I want their neighbors, whether they are plumbers, teachers, or Physician Assistants to be able to own them too. That's fair. What you seem to be arguing for is not fair.
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Old 02-23-2013, 15:53   #552
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Once again, the EMS gets screwed. lol.

Red
Red headed step children.

Yeah, I don't agree with that either. Every assaulted patient you report to see, is laying in a dangerous place. After all, just a few moments before the 911 call, someone was actually hurt on that very spot.

At least when I was a first responder, I had armor (tanks) and close air support. There is nothing like having good friends with superior fire power. I got pinned down once. We called for help, and I had Abrams, bradleys, a squad of infantry, and three Apaches show up in about 5 minutes. They were all buzzing like angry bees, and the guys shooting at us didn't last long at all. It was hard to give a body count, the pieces were small and spread around.

Be safe out there, you are the bravest of the brave, you go where there is need without arms. I'm not in agreement with that, but it is what it is.

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Old 02-23-2013, 16:04   #553
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I don't think any police officer or agency in America should be permitted to purchase or posess any weapon that is illegal for a private citizen living in the jurisdiction of that agency.

I have just as much right as Joe Biden to decide what other people need and no more requirement to be reasonable about it.
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Old 02-23-2013, 16:24   #554
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At least when I was a first responder, I had armor (tanks) and close air support. There is nothing like having good friends with superior fire power. I got pinned down once. We called for help, and I had Abrams, bradleys, a squad of infantry, and three Apaches show up in about 5 minutes. They were all buzzing like angry bees, and the guys shooting at us didn't last long at all. It was hard to give a body count, the pieces were small and spread around.
Hey, it is a good feeling to be one of those in the air to respond when those on the ground need help, sir!

There was this one time at band camp, in Cambodia....
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Old 02-23-2013, 16:47   #555
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Hey, it is a good feeling to be one of those in the air to respond when those on the ground need help, sir!

There was this one time at band camp, in Cambodia....
I've had a few less than 100 people tell me I should write a book. There are quite a few guys that I know that led more interesting lives than I did.

On that particular day, the Apaches didn't have to fire. There was a platoon of tanks on one end of town, a platoon of bradleys on the other, and a company of light infantry in the middle. I happened to be a bit closer to the tanks on that day. HEAT rounds into the first floor of a two story building until the second floor becomes the first is an effective method of clearance. I only had one other bad day with fire directed at me in that town, and after that, you'd be surprised at how well people listened when I showed up at a meeting. That was '99, so I was all of about 31 years old.

I could tell you stories of the 1SG in the town next to mine that could put all of my stories to shame. He taught me that the term "Skull-Drag" was not just a figure of speech. His town was a lot quieter, because he went ugly early.

I learned a lot about humans in Kosovo.
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Old 02-23-2013, 17:58   #556
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Aside from being grammatically a mess, your diatribe does not answer the question.

Why punish the cops who do not make the idiotic laws?
Why do the police need those scary guns anymore with a ban in place? After all, the untrusted civilians won't have them so there is any reason for anyone to have them anymore. Right?

If a six shooter and a pump shotgun is good enough for me to protect my family, it's all you need to do your job.

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Old 02-23-2013, 18:02   #557
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Why punish the cops who do not make the idiotic laws?
Why punish the law abiding civilians that don't use guns to commit crimes?

Instead of going public with your butt hurt and thinking cops should be, "Special" () get on the side of freedom for all of the rest of us too. That is unless your part of their regime.
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Old 02-23-2013, 18:24   #558
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. LEO's, even in New York will be able to have full capacity magazines, any fear on their part is unfounded.

Civilians will have to turn in, destroy, or get rid of their full capacity magazines.

No, it's not fair. No, the LEO's pictured with Cuomo, Biden and Barry don't give a crap about the normal people.

Many other LEO's support gun rights for us poor normal civilians. Some are strangely claiming to and yet still crying and decomposing emotionally at this stand by private companies, even though they have been shown there will be no harm.


The companies taking this stand need to be supported by all fair minded people.
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Old 02-23-2013, 18:27   #559
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KA,

You need to take a step back and rationally examine the situation. You are emotionally overplaying this issue into much more than it really is. Where's those Dragnet guys when you need them, Just the facts... Look at JUST THE FACTS.
Let's.

Quote:
None of these companies are anti-LEO.
They have come out and stated that they will not sell to Law Enforcement Officers, or Departments. It is kind of hard to mistake that.

Quote:
They are anti-unreasonable gun control government.
Who the people of those states voted to put in office. In essence, they screwed themselves.

Quote:
We've established that there will be no harm whatsoever to military or LEO's on the job. That equipment already exists on site, and none of them are being told to destroy it, turn it in, or send it out of state like the civilians in NYS are being forced to do.
You mean the civilians who set this whole thing in motion by consistantly and constantly voting for liberals?

Quote:
The state Government of New York is anti civilian.
The civilians put them there, so the civilians are wholly to blame.

Quote:
They are setting up a scenario where law abiding civilians will be limited to 7 round mags, but police and crooks can have any size mags they want to have.
Crooks have never obeyed the law. So, that is irrelevant. However, police have the job of going up against the crooks who never obeyed the law in the first place. They do this, so civilians don't have to. If they stopped doing that, then the civilians would actually see what a true wave of violence really was by crooks.

Quote:
So, remember, just the facts, who is being screwed here?
The folks who screwed themselves by voting in liberal politicians consistantly. I guess there is no benefit in being a "blue" state.

Quote:
It's not the crooks. It's not the cops. It's all the regular civilians that all of us are supposed to be caring about.
Apparently, they can't care for themselves. So, what do you propose, not allowing them to vote? Since they merrily brought this down on their own heads by choosing poltiicians they knew were crazy liberal.

Quote:
If you need a reality check, here it is. If NYS had carved out a special exemption for LEO and retired LEO, and Active Duty and Retired Military, I would still be against it.
Retired LEO's I have no problem with. They reoutinely piss off criminal organizations on a regular basis who aren't exactly forgiving. They have earned a retried badge and gun after a 25-30 year career of putting their lives on the line and creating a long list of vendettas who would love to find them vulnerable and murder them and their family for their service.

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Considering that you are ignoring that no military or LEO on the job will be inconvenienced by the action these companies are taking,
Again, completely wrong. These comparies are refusing to not only to see to LEO's but their Departments or Agencies. It is the equivalent of Colt telling the Military to go suck it, and they won't be providing rifles or replacement parts and components. I take it you either have half the information at hand, or are purposely ignoring it.

Quote:
it is only reasonable to assume that you are getting your panties in a square knotted bunch because you are upset that LEO's off duty aren't being given special status and rights that normal citizens are being denied.
I'll be cool with that, as long as you are cool with the VA being shut down, as that is a special privledge not allowed to normal citizens. That wounded military not be given a full pension and full pay for life, as that is not afforded to normal citizens. The wounded warrior project be shut down as tha is not afforded to normal citizens. I could go on, but you see the point.

Quote:
When it was my job to defend Americans, I saw them as the bosses, not the peasant serfs. Is that the difference?
Really? When you get 2k a month housing expenses, which no citizen or LEO gets. When you get free medical which no LEO or citizen gets. When you get large bonuses for reupping which no civilian or Citizen gets. Yup, I can see why you would be smug.

Quote:
If I've got you all wrong, please, correct me, but you have been ignoring very specific and pertinent information given to you and still been incensed in a hard to understand way for a while now. At this point, arrogant hypocrisy is about all I have to go with for your motivation here.
Yeah, sitting in a comfortable position, not dealing with crap that LEOs have to deal with day in and day out would allow you to be high handed. I think given some of your comments, the arrogance and the hypocrisy is yours. The fact is, you are too blinded by the many privledges that have been afforded to you by your choice, that you are blind to it.

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I want cops to be able to own 30 round mags at home too.
I don't care what they have at at home. I want their duty gear to be full capacity and in good working order.

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I want their neighbors, whether they are plumbers, teachers, or Physician Assistants to be able to own them too. That's fair. What you seem to be arguing for is not fair.
Then they need to stop consistantly voting Democrat.
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Old 02-23-2013, 18:40   #560
maestrogustav
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 212
Punishing cops? Please.

If you are in a position to be representing the .gov, holding a weapon pointed at a civilian, then you should be limited to what civilians are legally allowed to have.

If you say "The bad guys are going to have semiauto hi caps!"--- well now you know how WE feel.

Why should Larue arm you, to enable you better to disarm your "jurisdiction."

If you say "we need better weapons to fight the bad guys. . . . .!!!" Then stand alongside the civilians who have to fight the same bad guys.

Turn your union against the pols who are stripping the rights of the people in your charge to protect themselves. Citizens are the true first responders. Why do you want to disarm them? If you don't, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!

the point of this is to get people like you cops thinking and talking. If you are not with us, then you will be against us at some point.

good luck with your decisions.

Last edited by maestrogustav; 02-23-2013 at 18:41..
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