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Old 02-24-2013, 12:53   #626
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Cavalry Doc, you post some good replys. Cant help but think there are a few Liberals in disguise here on Glocktalk. Kingarthurhk is a good example or he just hates his job so much hes ready to explode. l love what these companies are doing. They are letting the law makers see that they're decisions are having unforeseen consequences. This stand by these businesses says something not just to NY but every other state watching. Liberals love hearing these guys criticize the people who are standing up and taking action.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:57   #627
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Most citizens fail to realize that the conflict resolution continuum does NOT go from 0 to 100, with nothing in between. That's the problem, isn't it? They most rely on LE to fill in the 2 to 99 (and too often up to 100) of the continuum?

But that makes for an easy excuse to throw your hands up in the air and claim there's nothing you can do.
I'm not sure I follow you. Break that down for me again. I am not being obtuse, I really can't gather exactly what you are saying.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:57   #628
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I know you are trying to help, but please stop trying to help. You're not very good at it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:59   #629
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Another way to look at it this; the politicians are screwing the cops. The anti 2nd Amendment crowd have been trying to divide gun owners between "sensible" hunters and the "extreme" gun owners. Your placing blame on those standing up to these elected bullies show that it's working.

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Old 02-24-2013, 13:02   #630
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Police departments are a government entity and American citizens should have access to the same equipment as the the government. Police will run into dangers in the line of duty , but it is most likely a citizen that faced the danger first and called them there. Why shouldn't they be able to face the same danger with the same equipment.

In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, or in 'stand-your-ground' states, why are the citizens of crime still calling 9-1-1? They should be helping themselves. Or if they can't help themselves, their neighbors should be helping. So why aren't fellow residents keeping their neighbors and their communities safe?

In past threads, after every school attack, people clamor for more security. I argue parents should take more responsibility for their own children's safety. Parents should volunteer as school security. In response to that, all I hear are the crickets.

People are glad when more school hire more police. And people want the same guns as the police. But people are silent when I say that local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
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Old 02-24-2013, 13:33   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, or in 'stand-your-ground' states, why are the citizens of crime still calling 9-1-1? They should be helping themselves. Or if they can't help themselves, their neighbors should be helping. So why aren't fellow residents keeping their neighbors and their communities safe?

In past threads, after every school attack, people clamor for more security. I argue parents should take more responsibility for their own children's safety. Parents should volunteer as school security. In response to that, all I hear are the crickets.

People are glad when more school hire more police. And people want the same guns as the police. But people are silent when I say that local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
Can you point me to a place where parents have been offered the opportunity be armed guards at their children's schools, and not enough people volunteered?

That's the first I've heard of anything like that happening.

I'd be more than happy to add my name to the roster.

There are a few wacko's posting in the thread, but I'm not one of them. I do not want police hurt, or under-equipped. But I do not want average citizens under-equipped either. I don't need anyone to tell me what size magazines I need, I can figure that out on my own without any help. None of my guns are a danger to anyone other than someone that means me or mine harm first. Well, I guess they are a danger to tasty animals that I would like to have in my freezer. I tagged 3 deer and shot several feral hogs this year.

I'd have to admit, I'd probably handle anything that needed handling security wise myself. Not out of choice. I've seen more than enough people shot stabbed and blown up in my time to not want to see it ever again if given the choice. Odds are, a bad guys is not going to wait for me to place a call to 911 before I have to do something to stop them. I'd still call 911, to report the incident and arrange for pickup of the remains vs transport of the wounded. Last I heard, the local PD prefers you do that instead of burying them in the back yard. Something about shallow water tables or something like that.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-24-2013 at 13:36..
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Old 02-24-2013, 13:44   #632
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In states where no permits are required, or in 'shall issue' states, or in 'stand-your-ground' states, why are the citizens of crime still calling 9-1-1? They should be helping themselves. Or if they can't help themselves, their neighbors should be helping. So why aren't fellow residents keeping their neighbors and their communities safe?

In past threads, after every school attack, people clamor for more security. I argue parents should take more responsibility for their own children's safety. Parents should volunteer as school security. In response to that, all I hear are the crickets.

People are glad when more school hire more police. And people want the same guns as the police. But people are silent when I say that local citizens being more actively involved in keeping their local communities safer would be the best way to demonstrate 2A.
Let's see, half of the population voted for Obama, and they don't even know why, they just liked what everyone else said about him, or, they voted color over principle. Now, everyone is so brainwashed, they are either incapable of defending themselves, or, afraid to go to jail because they did.

That being said, we've been inundated with laws and lawsuits that the average citizen cannot stand their ground. Many states still don't have a stand your ground law, but like the sheep they are, most people have no idea about what it is, or what it does. Libtards call it the "make my day" law .

I see the MSM telling everyone, don't stand up for yourself, submit to the attack, call the police, or be a good witness. While that may work on occasion, it's not the mindset we'd like to see. Notice how Obama used sworn officers to make his point on gun control, that's the message he's sending. That cops are there to protect and serve because we won't allow you to have the tools you need, or the laws you need to do so.

They've given you job security, what are you complaining about?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 02-24-2013, 13:49   #633
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It really needs to be said... "this is not an issue any longer about protecting ourselves or our schools or even our rights as they stand today!" It is about protecting our progeny's existence as 'free Americans' and recapturing the ideals of our Founders. We have 'lost' ground over the past forty or fifty years. I don't think it is hopeless but on the other hand this will not turn about anytime soon.

Education must be recovered even if it means nothing but 'home schooling.' Our graduates know little of why America was distinctly different and today's educators and liberal politicians tell them "America is no better than any other country!" Hogwash. We need the moral high ground even if it means the "pulpit" over the 'bully pulpit. We need to refresh the electorate with the inspirations of "One Nation Under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All"... a lot of that is tattered and lagging. This is a gun forum but the issues run greatly beyond just that (important definitely) interest.
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:04   #634
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Let's see, half of the population voted for Obama, and they don't even know why, they just liked what everyone else said about him, or, they voted color over principle. Now, everyone is so brainwashed, they are either incapable of defending themselves, or, afraid to go to jail because they did.

That being said, we've been inundated with laws and lawsuits that the average citizen cannot stand their ground. Many states still don't have a stand your ground law, but like the sheep they are, most people have no idea about what it is, or what it does. Libtards call it the "make my day" law .

I see the MSM telling everyone, don't stand up for yourself, submit to the attack, call the police, or be a good witness. While that may work on occasion, it's not the mindset we'd like to see. Notice how Obama used sworn officers to make his point on gun control, that's the message he's sending. That cops are there to protect and serve because we won't allow you to have the tools you need, or the laws you need to do so.

They've given you job security, what are you complaining about?
Clyde
Clyde, I know you read my posts. But obviously you're not reading my posts! Do any of my posts sound like I'm concerned about my job security? Hell no!

My posts are based on my experiences, which is that people need to do more for themselves and their communities. Everyone clamors for guns like those used by their local LE, but when their neighbors need help, the silence of the crickets chirp loudly.

People are brainwashed by Obama? What do you want me to do? What do you want LE to do? LE to the rescue to deprogram?

Just for the record, in the last 33 years since I've been eligible to vote, I've never voted democrat. So don't you make excuses. Lead, follow or get the freak out of the way.
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Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 19:37..
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:11   #635
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Let's see, half of the population voted for Obama, and they don't even know why, they just liked what everyone else said about him, or, they voted color over principle. Now, everyone is so brainwashed, they are either incapable of defending themselves, or, afraid to go to jail because they did.

That being said, we've been inundated with laws and lawsuits that the average citizen cannot stand their ground. Many states still don't have a stand your ground law, but like the sheep they are, most people have no idea about what it is, or what it does. Libtards call it the "make my day" law .

I see the MSM telling everyone, don't stand up for yourself, submit to the attack, call the police, or be a good witness. While that may work on occasion, it's not the mindset we'd like to see. Notice how Obama used sworn officers to make his point on gun control, that's the message he's sending. That cops are there to protect and serve because we won't allow you to have the tools you need, or the laws you need to do so.

They've given you job security, what are you complaining about?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
So you support what men like Raul Rodriguez did? Killed an innocent man over loud music?


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Old 02-24-2013, 15:22   #636
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Can you point me to a place where parents have been offered the opportunity be armed guards at their children's schools, and not enough people volunteered?

That's the first I've heard of anything like that happening.

I'd be more than happy to add my name to the roster.
A month or so ago, when the guy kidnapped that 6 y.o. from the school bus and barricaded himself in the bunker, I posted that school buses are a weak link, and that parents can step in to protect that weakness. Without rehashing all that I posted, I specifically said that having a gun was not the priority. Being available and alert was the most important requirement.

Yeah, the law in many places forbid CCWs on school grounds. But if enough parents were concerned enough, they can cause their law makers to modify laws.

To say that "well, the current laws says we can't..." is simply making excuses. If it's important enough to parents, parents can get laws modified. Or at least, make real and sincere attempts to. Otherwise, it's just an excuse.


Quote:
There are a few wacko's posting in the thread, but I'm not one of them. I do not want police hurt, or under-equipped. But I do not want average citizens under-equipped either. I don't need anyone to tell me what size magazines I need, I can figure that out on my own without any help. None of my guns are a danger to anyone other than someone that means me or mine harm first. Well, I guess they are a danger to tasty animals that I would like to have in my freezer. I tagged 3 deer and shot several feral hogs this year.

I'd have to admit, I'd probably handle anything that needed handling security wise myself. Not out of choice. I've seen more than enough people shot stabbed and blown up in my time to not want to see it ever again if given the choice. Odds are, a bad guys is not going to wait for me to place a call to 911 before I have to do something to stop them. I'd still call 911, to report the incident and arrange for pickup of the remains vs transport of the wounded. Last I heard, the local PD prefers you do that instead of burying them in the back yard. Something about shallow water tables or something like that.
Never thought you were a wacko.

But if the citizens want the same guns as the police, then lets start seeing some of them use those same guns to help their neighbors. The more people who take action (including and up to using their guns-those same guns as their local LE) to keep their neighbors and communities safer, the stronger the argument for 2A. (Does that make sense? )
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Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 15:32..
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:29   #637
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A month or so ago, when the guy kidnapped that 6 y.o. from the school bus and barricaded himself in the bunker, I posted that school buses are a weak link, and that parents can step in to protect that weakness. Without rehashing all that I posted, I specifically said that having a gun was not the priority. Being available and alert was the most important requirement.

Yeah, the law in many places forbid CCWs on school grounds. But if enough parents were concerned enough, they can cause their law makers to modify laws.

To say that "well, the current laws says we can't..." is simply making excuses. If it's important enough to parents, parents can get laws modified. Otherwise, it's just an excuse.




Never thought you were a wacko.

But if the citizens want the same guns as the police, then lets start seeing some of them use those same guns to help their neighbors. The more people who take action (including and up to using their guns-those same guns as their local LE) to keep their neighbors and communities safer, the stronger the argument for 2A. (Does that make sense? )
I believe part of the problem with some being hesitant to step in and help others has to do with our sue-happy society. That, and fear of unjust prosecution.
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:49   #638
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I believe part of the problem with some being hesitant to step in and help others has to do with our sue-happy society. That, and fear of unjust prosecution.
Yes, I fully understand that.

But the conflict resolution continuum does not go from 1 to 100, with no in between. What this means is that it does not go from "Help me, I'm a victim" to "I'll kill them all." Steps 2 to 99 means there are other ways to deal with things. And, yeah, ultimately, you might have to use your the gun. But if you offer all sorts of excuses as to why you did nothing, then the argument as to why you need the same gun as your local LE sounds hollow.

Don't know if that makes sense.
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:06   #639
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Yes, I fully understand that.

But the conflict resolution continuum does not go from 1 to 100, with no in between. What this means is that it does not go from "Help me, I'm a victim" to "I'll kill them all." Steps 2 to 99 means there are other ways to deal with things. And, yeah, ultimately, you might have to use your the gun. But if you offer all sorts of excuses as to why you did nothing, then the argument as to why you need the same gun as your local LE sounds hollow.

Don't know if that makes sense.
Kinda sorta, but I don't think every citizen has that same mentality. I suspect most of what you are talking about comes from people who have never been worth a crap at living responsibly and handling their own business, and probably never will be. Not good candidates for gun ownership IMO, but how do we draw the line in such cases?
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:20   #640
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Kinda sorta, but I don't think every citizen has that same mentality. I suspect most of what you are talking about comes from people who have never been worth a crap at living responsibly and handling their own business, and probably never will be. Not good candidates for gun ownership IMO, but how do we draw the line in such cases?
IDK either. But on the internet, they can post their opinions the same as anyone else.

IMHO, the last generation who took personal responsibility seriously were those born around the 1920s-1930s (the Depression and then lived/fought through WW2 & Korea).
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:30   #641
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It seems as though no answer will be acceptable OP. I support their decision. /thread
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:39   #642
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I wonder if more citizens would do more to handle things if they were not convinced that after they did someone might show up and arrest them for it?

I handle things and do what's right regardless of what consequences may come.
If my kid is out of line and I hand out a ass whooping and get arrested for so be it.
I don't beat my kids and I don't call the cops to do my job!
There is a big difference between abuse and discipline...
And that goes for every thing solve stuff your self call the cops when all reasonable options in your ability have been used up
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:42   #643
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Cavalry Doc, you post some good replys. Cant help but think there are a few Liberals in disguise here on Glocktalk. Kingarthurhk is a good example or he just hates his job so much hes ready to explode. l love what these companies are doing. They are letting the law makers see that they're decisions are having unforeseen consequences. This stand by these businesses says something not just to NY but every other state watching. Liberals love hearing these guys criticize the people who are standing up and taking action.
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:43   #644
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But if the citizens want the same guns as the police, then lets start seeing some of them use those same guns to help their neighbors. The more people who take action (including and up to using their guns-those same guns as their local LE) to keep their neighbors and communities safer, the stronger the argument for 2A. (Does that make sense? )

I agree, but, I believe lots of people will not get involved for fear of being arrested, of being prosecuted, and having to use what little money they have for defense.
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:53   #645
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I agree, but, I believe lots of people will not get involved for fear of being arrested, of being prosecuted, and having to use what little money they have for defense.
My point exactly.
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Old 02-24-2013, 17:00   #646
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So you support what men like Raul Rodriguez did? Killed an innocent man over loud music?


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That's rhetorical, and stupid.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 02-24-2013, 17:19   #647
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
A month or so ago, when the guy kidnapped that 6 y.o. from the school bus and barricaded himself in the bunker, I posted that school buses are a weak link, and that parents can step in to protect that weakness. Without rehashing all that I posted, I specifically said that having a gun was not the priority. Being available and alert was the most important requirement.

Yeah, the law in many places forbid CCWs on school grounds. But if enough parents were concerned enough, they can cause their law makers to modify laws.

To say that "well, the current laws says we can't..." is simply making excuses. If it's important enough to parents, parents can get laws modified. Or at least, make real and sincere attempts to. Otherwise, it's just an excuse.




Never thought you were a wacko.

But if the citizens want the same guns as the police, then lets start seeing some of them use those same guns to help their neighbors. The more people who take action (including and up to using their guns-those same guns as their local LE) to keep their neighbors and communities safer, the stronger the argument for 2A. (Does that make sense? )
1st of all, I really don't want the same guns as police have. I've never been a huge fan of 5.56. I've seen too many people and feral hogs hit with multiple rounds that were still kicking. I prefer rifle bullets in the 130 - 200gr range. I'd consider the guns I have as better than what my local LEO's have. They aren't all uber expensive, but I tweak them a bit, and feed them home rolled ammo (the rifles). I really do think that people have a right to have the same weapons as law enforcement, mostly. CS grenades, det cord & flash bangs might be a bit over the top. I've never been a fan of fully auto, but if they want to go through the hassle of a class III license and pony up the cash to waste...er fire that much ammo, be my guest. I do think suppressors should be available at local gas stations with no special paperwork. It's just a safety thing. I know exactly how loud pistols and rifles are when fired in a building, and it's an unneeded hearing hazard.

My kids used to ride the bus to school with a soldier with a loaded M4 on the bus, and a gun truck fore and aft of the bus. The three high rise buildings that comprised the company grade officer housing we lived in off post were surrounded by concertina wire, we had one command post, three traffic control points and constantly roving guards (3 teams of two) with loaded M4's or M16's. My apartment was on the ground floor, the 240B machine gun emplacement was 4 feet off of my ground floor balcony, it had overwatch of the underground garage entrance. My kids (17 and 23 now) have told me that some of their fondest memories was taking hot chocolate, coffee, cookies and soup to the guards on cold nights. In the housing areas on post, due to the three dimensional threat, manhole covers were padlocked closed from the top.

I've got a real good idea of how to secure static areas and buses.

But just a post on here is not much of an invitation for action. Get that on the front page of the local paper, and you are talking business then. In TX, we can carry right up until we drop the kids off in front of the school, the moment we step out of the car, we have problems. Not having a gun makes you an ammo depletion device to the bad guy, nothing more. Maybe you could pull back and dial 911, but by then, what is going to happen has happened. From 200 yards away, give me a 10 yard window of an adult dragging a 6 year old in the direction of his car, and the adult isn't going to make it. But I can't do that with a phone, or a pistol. I'm not a super ninja, or a special forces anything, I am a firearms enthusiast, an expert in anatomy & wound ballistics, and an avid hunter. I'm not all that special, there are plenty of fellows that know a lot more than me, especially where I live.

In order to gauge how well the response really is, there has to be a real open and honest discussion in a public way. My youngest drives to school. If the bus driver on our route noticed the same pickup truck following the same bus every day, with the same guy driving, and I got pulled over with a carry pistol and my LR308-AP4, I'd probably be in a little hot water. It's legal to carry a long gun in a vehicle here, even loaded, but let's be real, what police officer is going to take a chance on my word that I was overwatching the bus with nothing but good intentions.


Why not propose some sort of armed parent ride behind program in your neighborhood. Maybe even train and test the potential protectors. Make it real, then see how many will volunteer to help.

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Old 02-24-2013, 17:30   #648
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So you support what men like Raul Rodriguez did? Killed an innocent man over loud music?


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Dude, that's an uncalled for low blow.



I grew up in Ohio. It's one of the main reasons I live in Texas now. It's gotten better on the self defense front only recently.

I remember being taught when I was in HS in Ohio, that a 300 pound strange man could kick your door off the hinges, slap your wife to the floor, rip your TV off the wall and walk out the front door, and if you shot him, you would go to prison. Why? Because he didn't have a lethal weapon, and he didn't threaten your life.

The former Highway Patrolman giving that class later explained, that may be why an unusual amount of home break in's in Ohio occur through the kitchen, as evidenced by the number of dead bad guys found in homes with steak knives in their hands. I think he even stomped on the ground 3 times and winked after saying that.
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Old 02-24-2013, 17:38   #649
Pwhfirefighter
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Location: Central Mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshdog View Post
....Cant help but think there are a few Liberals in disguise here on Glocktalk. Kingarthurhk is a good example or he just hates his job so much hes ready to explode.....
I have to respectfully disagree with this.

While following this thread, I have tried to see the discussion objectively, which is tough being a non-LEO law abiding gun owner. I can see where LEOs could perceive the action by gun business as screwing them. But, I agree with what DOC said about LEOs not having difficulty getting what they need. I personally have never met an LEO around here that is anti 2A in regards to the local populace. Nor have I read anything from LEOs on here that leads me to believe they are anti 2A. And if it came down to it, if the local LEOs that I know and work with got into a bind, I would gladly share what little supply I have with them.

As a law abiding gun owner, I can't say that I disagree with the actions the firearms business are taking in trying to get the attention of the governments of the restrictive states in order to get them to back off on the anti 2A laws. I have to say I agree. I am sure that there are plenty of top notch LEOs that are pro 2A in those restrictive states. I definitely don't want them to be underequiped in doing their jobs, I want them to have whatever they need to out gun the criminals they face. But I also do not want law abiding gun owners to have to give up our rights either. Living in a very rural county, unfortunately, citizens here are truly on their own for a while if law enforcement is needed. And that is not the LEOs fault either. It is what it is.

I have contacted my state and national congressional folks several times. I continue to hope that the end result will be that LEOs will have what they need while ensuring law abiding gun owners continue to be able to have what we need as well.

Just my $.02
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Old 02-24-2013, 17:47   #650
Patchman
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyS View Post
I agree, but, I believe lots of people will not get involved for fear of being arrested, of being prosecuted, and having to use what little money they have for defense.
Like I said before, if 'lots of people' clamor for the same guns as their local LEOs, but then back off and say "I'm not getting involved because (whatever reason)...," then their calls for needing the same guns come across as hollow.

IDK how else to say this.
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Last edited by Patchman; 02-24-2013 at 17:49..
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42