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Old 02-22-2013, 18:40   #501
Kingarthurhk
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Originally Posted by SGT HATRED View Post
So cops want civilians dead and civilians want cops dead. Who knew?

I personally believe police shouldn't be above the law and applaud these companies for taking a stand...
Then the Military shouldn't be above the law, and those folks who hail from banned states should be denied their necessary equipment as well.

Careful, if you say no on that, that would mean your hypocrsiy would be showing.

Agency or Department issued equipment is not being above the law. Agencies and Departments have been allowed under the law, the same as the Military to have automatic weapons at their disposal.

I fail to see how this is a difficult concept for you.
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Old 02-22-2013, 18:43   #502
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Please, please do. Maybe it'll wake him up to the fact that photo ops are nothing more than political events. By his logic, I suppose the military supports Obama's agenda, and will be coming for his guns. I'd be a lot more concerned about the guys in Bradleys coming, than the folks who drive care with red and blue lights.

As has been mentioned several times here, as well. Should the Moron Lubers wet dream of dying in a fight over gun confiscation occur, it likely will not be state or local agencies conducting the operation. We don't enforce federal law. I know that's a hard concept for some to follow, but it's true. I can't arrest someone for ANY violation under USC. Which is what a federal gun ban and confiscation thereupon would fall under.
True. And the majority of the Federal Agencies don't enforce gun laws either. That is the purview of the BATFE.

BATFE does not have the resources at its disposal to confiscate a nation's firearms. That would require martial law and Military action.
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Old 02-22-2013, 18:46   #503
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I'm all for those guys. I've even bragged about many of the Texas Sheriffs that have come out against proposed bans.

It doesn't make a lot of sense for companies to limit sales to states that support civilian RKBA. A carrot and stick approach is the wise course. In states where such incompetent rules exist for civilians, companies just should not ship products that do not comply to that state, without exception. Will that actually work? It depends on if any company breaks ranks and sells to them anyway, which will probably happen. But the publicity will be useful either way.

The gun banner's plan is one of divide and conquer. Companies inviting governments and their employees into the same pool gets attention.

Granted, in Texas, state laws like that aren't very likely in the foreseeable future.

If we (law enforcement and citizens) take an US vs THEM approach, it weakens us all.
Cop Talk

Us versus who again?
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Old 02-22-2013, 19:13   #504
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I have mixed feelings on this topic.

On the one hand, I understand the point of view of non-LEOs who are denied, in certain localities, access to weapons and accessories that individual LEOs may purchase, utilize and retain (even after separating from LE) in those same localities. As a firm 2nd Amendment supporter, I get the arguments of many non-LEOs on this issue.

On the other hand, the decision by some manufacturers and retailers (Top Gun Supply, for instance) to deny individual LEOs from purchasing certain weapons and accessories (in accordance with existing law) doesn't actually put any pressure on the government to change its gun control position.

Agencies don't really care whether an individual LEO can purchase a high cap magazine or whatever. No doubt some would prefer they cannot.

For instance, during the 1994 AWB ban, the FBI changed its policy on personally owned weapons. Prior to the ban, Agents were allowed to purchase and have approved AR-15s for duty use which had collapsible stocks and other features later outlawed by the AWB. After the ban, the Bureau would only approve those ARs without those features. The concern the Bureau had was that an Agent would buy an AR with the prohibited features and subsequently separate from the FBI and be in possession of a weapon subject to the AWB.

During that same period, Agents purchasing pistols for duty use were required to buy them with the 10 round magazines. The FBI would provide Bureau purchased mags for those approved weapons, with the requirement that the magazines be returned should the Agent leave the Bureau.

If these manufacturers and retailers want to send a message to legislators about the consequences of gun control measures, then they should refuse to do business with the agencies themselves.

Collectively, the firearms industry could wield quite a lot of clout that way. They would have to honor existing contracts, I'm sure, but could refuse to initiate new contractual obligations.

That would be a bold, principal-driven stance to take, particularly as it would hurt profits significantly...I believe Barrett took that position in California. Of course, big corporations may have stock holders to answer to.

Anything short of that, focused soley on individual LEOs, will have little financial cost to the manufacturers (individual sales are dwarfed by agency sales), and little benefit to non-LEOs concerned about gun control.

The only person feeling the pain will be the LEO unable to purchase a few extra hi cap mags to do his job.

Last point, on the LEO vs. non-LEO. The LEO is armed and equipped to better serve the community. The non-LEO who desires arms does so for their personal benefit. Some non-LEOs may see their choice of going armed as offering the potential to help the community in an emergency, but I've noticed many threads about third party self defense where the prevelant view, no doubt liability driven, is "my guns are to protect me."

That's fine, but, if that's your view, as a non-LEO, you are not similarly situated as a LEO in terms of community service.

The exceptions in law that allow LEOs to take certain actions that non-LEOs may not take (running code 3, for instance, to a call for service) exist not because LEOs are somehow an elite or protected class, but because their function is to serve the community at large.

Many individual LEOs spend a great deal of money on personal equipment to better do their job, a job which serves the community, at great physical and emotional risk.

Just a thought.
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Old 02-22-2013, 19:32   #505
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Excellent post, Marlowe.


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Old 02-22-2013, 19:38   #506
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What I ask is to put yourself in the shoes of an LE for a moment. Respond to a call of a robbery in progress involving multiple suspects armed with semi automatic weapons, and shots have been fired.

Now do you want to arrive at that scene with just your little old S&W Model 19, or with your Glock or any other High cap Auto and your AR15 patrol carbine.

When you can see what the two outcomes may be, then you will understand the difference between needing the equipment, and just wanting it.

I personally want and need whatever I can get to lean the odds in my favor. I have a family of Non LE people to go home to. They are counting on me to do my job correctly so that I can.

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Old 02-22-2013, 19:48   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Cop Talk

Us versus who again?
Swing and a miss brother. Unless you were trying to make a racial remark.


Maybe you missed post 481?

Quote:
Originally posted by Me.
I used to work at a military confinement facility in Mannheim, guess what, all people who wear a uniform are not good guys. I can think of a few who needed a needle then, and would love to be the guy that pushed the plunger on the "last needle"
on one particular active duty Major. A uniform might be an indicator, but it's not proof of anything. If you even do a superficial look around, you will find heroes and zeros in every group. I've also worked at an interrogation facility in Baghdad. Yeah, there have been several people that have threatened to kill me and my family if they ever got the chance. Some of those threats were just to try to get under my skin. Some were promises by very committed terrorists and former Bath party officials, others by true psychotics. Meh, it's just part of the job.

I've been retired from the Army for over 6 years. I don't get to carry AT4's in my truck. I really don't agree with NYS exempting retired officers from the magazine restriction.
You need to understand that I am not one of those anti-police kind of guys. I'm actually very pro-law enforcement. The enemy is the liberal state legislatures, not the law enforcement officers. Yeah, there are some that applaud restricting normal civilian gun rights, and there are some soldiers that luv them sum Barry. So what?

I do support the 30+ gun manufacturers that will not sell civilian restricted items to New York, period, no exceptions. I think that is a good thing. It will have virtually no impact to the safety of law enforcement officers, and at the same time get their attention, and the attention of the press.

Win win in my book. Aren't you glad we don't live in New York?
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Old 02-22-2013, 19:57   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post

...

If these manufacturers and retailers want to send a message to legislators about the consequences of gun control measures, then they should refuse to do business with the agencies themselves.

...
Most of the announcements that I have seen basically state that they will not sell to any individual, agency, or other entity within the state any item that civilians are not allowed to own.

For example: http://www.facebook.com/permalink.ph...14264921930723


So they are restricting sales to all customers, agency or individual, and that's about as fair as they can be.

Hopefully all of the residents of those states will fight back with time, money and political pressure.
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Old 02-22-2013, 20:11   #509
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If there is anyone throwing anyone else under the bus - it's the LEO's that support the proposed bans!

If you are an LEO and you support the ban to make your job easier or safer - go be a prison guard - you'll be the only one with a gun there. Is that the kind of society you want? What's to say they can't pass a national law making all non-federal law enforcement "bobbies" - carry a stick and a stun gun?

It looks like people are choosing sides now - the Constitution or Barrack Hussein Obama.

I know what side I'm on - "WE THE PEOPLE". Not we of law enforcement, not we of federal employment, and not we of the U.S. mail carriers or anything else. WE THE PEOPLE.
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Old 02-22-2013, 20:13   #510
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Originally Posted by TexasPOff View Post
What I ask is to put yourself in the shoes of an LE for a moment. Respond to a call of a robbery in progress involving multiple suspects armed with semi automatic weapons, and shots have been fired.

Now do you want to arrive at that scene with just your little old S&W Model 19, or with your Glock or any other High cap Auto and your AR15 patrol carbine.

When you can see what the two outcomes may be, then you will understand the difference between needing the equipment, and just wanting it.

I personally want and need whatever I can get to lean the odds in my favor. I have a family of Non LE people to go home to. They are counting on me to do my job correctly so that I can.

TXPO
Inject a dose of reality. The agencies already have that equipment. The companies are not making the agencies send the items previously sold back to them. They are not making law enforcement agency's turn them in or destroy the items. They aren't requiring the agencies to ship the items out of state. They just aren't selling any more of them.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS: No agency will be sending it's law enforcement officers into harms way with anything less than they have today. ONLY THE CIVILIANS in those states will be forced to follow the restrictions. Law enforcement officers and RETIRED OFFICERS in NYS will still be allowed to own all of their scary black rifles and normal capacity magazines. ONLY THE CIVILIANS will be disarmed, or limited in their ability to fight criminals, a move supported by most criminals. Thanks for a bucket-o-crap Gov. Cuomo.

I personally want and need whatever I can get to lean the odds in my favor. I have a family of Non LE people to go home to. They are counting on me to protect them when necessary.

Personally, I am not a fan of AR 15's. Yeah, they work, but I've taken care of too many people with multiple 5.56 wounds that lived. AR-10's are much better for use on Texas Feral Hogs and bad guys. I've been shot at more often and with bigger stuff than most law enforcement officers. I have much more experience with automatic weapons (M16, M4, M240B, M249 & M2) than most LEO's. I've fired the main gun on an M1 Tank, Live fired AT4, Mark-19 and probably a few other items. I've been shot at with small arms, mortars, rockets, SAM's, SKUDs, and played with IED's. I'm nothing special, there are millions of guys with the same experience. I'm just a regular guy. I don't think I deserve any special treatment under the 2nd Amendment than my neighbor, who is a 60 year old nurse that's never been shot at with even a BB gun.

I have a solemn duty to protect myself and my family. My family is just as important to me as yours is to you.

Yeah, I think that when you are on duty, you should have whatever the job requires. Off duty, you should have exactly what your non-LEO, non-Veteran neighbor has a right to have.

If fairness is scary to you, maybe it's time to re-evaluate what ideas are good and which ones are bad.
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Old 02-22-2013, 20:19   #511
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True. And the majority of the Federal Agencies don't enforce gun laws either. That is the purview of the BATFE.

BATFE does not have the resources at its disposal to confiscate a nation's firearms. That would require martial law and Military action.
You mean the State of New York is now making Federal Law?
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Old 02-22-2013, 20:46   #512
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If there is anyone throwing anyone else under the bus - it's the LEO's that support the proposed bans!

If you are an LEO and you support the ban to make your job easier or safer - go be a prison guard - you'll be the only one with a gun there. Is that the kind of society you want? What's to say they can't pass a national law making all non-federal law enforcement "bobbies" - carry a stick and a stun gun?

It looks like people are choosing sides now - the Constitution or Barrack Hussein Obama.

I know what side I'm on - "WE THE PEOPLE". Not we of law enforcement, not we of federal employment, and not we of the U.S. mail carriers or anything else. WE THE PEOPLE.
Have you sent your message to the law enforcement agencies in New York? Everyone here is on our side, not the antis, not the NY state government, not Bloomberg, not Cuomo.

So, send your message to people in NY.

Thanks...
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Old 02-22-2013, 21:00   #513
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Have you sent your message to the law enforcement agencies in New York? Everyone here is on our side, not the antis, not the NY state government, not Bloomberg, not Cuomo.

So, send your message to people in NY.

Thanks...
RussP,

Just my own observation, but most politicians don't give a hoot about anyone that is not a constituent. I was on capital hill a week ago giving my senators and congressmen an ear full on pro-RKBA issues.

Most organizations don't give a hoot about people that are not potential members.

I will probably be writing these guys a check this weekend. If nothing else, send words of support.

http://www.nysrpa.org/
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Old 02-22-2013, 21:06   #514
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RussP,

Just my own observation, but most politicians don't give a hoot about anyone that is not a constituent. I was on capital hill a week ago giving my senators and congressmen an ear full on pro-RKBA issues.

Most organizations don't give a hoot about people that are not potential members.

I will probably be writing these guys a check this weekend. If nothing else, send words of support.

http://www.nysrpa.org/

You and I can definitely agree on that.


A lot of them it seems can care less. I know of a few in my area at least who are taking this issue to heart and listening to their constituents. In my area just about everyone owns guns and/or hunts, it is a big issue.

They only seem to listen when their job is on the line.
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Old 02-22-2013, 21:10   #515
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Most of the announcements that I have seen basically state that they will not sell to any individual, agency, or other entity within the state any item that civilians are not allowed to own.

For example: http://www.facebook.com/permalink.ph...14264921930723


So they are restricting sales to all customers, agency or individual, and that's about as fair as they can be.

Hopefully all of the residents of those states will fight back with time, money and political pressure.
I mentioned Top Gun Supply in my post...and have since re-read TGS' statement: In response to the NY SAFE act, TGS will sell NOT firearms and magazines to LE and government agencies if private citizens are prohibited from owning such items.

I have no qualms with such a decision. I understand the basis for it, and respect such a stance, particularly when it may be costly for the business taking such a stance.

My only concern would be a manufacturer or retailer who would do business with an agency, but not with an individual LEO. I was under the impression there were instances of that. If that is not the case, then it was my misunderstanding.

Thanks for your post, Calvary Doc...it made me double check my facts on TGS, a very good company.
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Old 02-22-2013, 21:19   #516
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Quote:
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I mentioned Top Gun Supply in my post...and have since re-read TGS' statement: In response to the NY SAFE act, TGS will sell NOT firearms and magazines to LE and government agencies if private citizens are prohibited from owning such items.

I have no qualms with such a decision. I understand the basis for it, and respect such a stance, particularly when it may be costly for the business taking such a stance.

My only concern would be a manufacturer or retailer who would do business with an agency, but not with an individual LEO. I was under the impression there were instances of that. If that is not the case, then it was my misunderstanding.

Thanks for your post, Calvary Doc...it made me double check my facts on TGS, a very good company.
I'm with you. Any company that would single out the members of law enforcement for restrictions and leave the agency able to buy items needs an email flame campaign to change their attitude.

It's not individuals that need to be punished, no one really needs to be punished (except the legislators). The government as a whole needs to be pressured, both from within, and from outside.

Be safe out there.
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Old 02-22-2013, 21:21   #517
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You and I can definitely agree on that.


A lot of them it seems can care less. I know of a few in my area at least who are taking this issue to heart and listening to their constituents. In my area just about everyone owns guns and/or hunts, it is a big issue.

They only seem to listen when their job is on the line.
That's all they understand. Unfortunately, the longer they have been in the job, the less they fear us normal citizens.

I really wish the idea of term limits had caught on, with no benefits after serving.
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Old 02-22-2013, 22:04   #518
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The "Great One" Mark Levin talked about this tonight on his radio show and he gave it a huge...

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Old 02-22-2013, 22:32   #519
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The "Great One" Mark Levin talked about this tonight on his radio show and he gave it a huge...

He is truly the great one. Way better than the other great one posing as POTUS. If only every politician thought like him, we'd know more liberty.
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Old 02-22-2013, 23:11   #520
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I stay away from those as much as possible; all the ones I've seen have been mean as, well, a snake
Corn snakes are very docile and mild mannered. They are very good as pets. Now, a garter or shovel nosed hog snake... those get quite squirrely and spray some nasty smelling chemicals when disturbed.

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So your snake i...naw, can't say that... I'd have to report myself.
Right...
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