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Old 02-22-2013, 09:24   #481
Cavalry Doc
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Apparently you don't follow my posts on GT concerning guns, or LE support of the same. Do a search.


The problem I have is simple - you are correct when you refer to LE as "government". We are employed by our respective government agencies. Yet, your little pictures above lump EVERYONE who wears a badge into the same group: anti-gunners.

Let's do a little math. My agency employs around 400-425 sworn officers at any given time. Shift requirements for the entire agency, upper command excluded, run around 60-70 people. I don't have exact numbers, because I don't know minimum requirements for each area, but that's a decent guess.

The pics you highlighted above don't even have that many officers combined. And yet, you want to throw those photos out as being representative of the entire combined strength of every local, state, and federal law enforcement officer around the country.

If photos are representative of the entire group, I'm pretty confident I can find ONE picture of the military at an Obama photo op, with MORE uniformed service members in it than the entire combined group of pics with LE at gun control events for Obama. Wanna try it?

As far as wishing others harm - here's the deal. This hits home, and in a very personal way. I am an officer, my wife is an officer, my best friend is an officer, and several other people I am close to are officers. We represent several different agencies around the state, as well.

When you make calls to limit the tools WE need to protect ourselves - it's very personal. I want my wife to have what she needs to come home at the end of her shift. YOU (yes, YOU personally) are making request to limit her choices, thereby creating the possibility that she may incur greater danger and not survive the encounter. That's personal to me - so yeah, I wish harm on those who would harm me and mine.

As to what I, and thousands of other LEO's believe - we support your gun right. We vote that way, deal with honest folk on the street that way, and walk the walk. Yet, you hold us responsible for the decisions of the legislative branch. A section of government we don't even work for (unless it's a rare agency, liks the USSC police). By and large, most of us work for the executive branch of our government. And yes, it's populated by stupid people who call for stupid things to be done. We don't agree with that crap, either.

You are either unaware (and, given your normal posting history, I'll chalk this idiocy of yours up to that) or choose to ignore all the posts in GT supporting gun rights. Many of our members live in states where guns are under attack. Yet, the officers still support gun rights - vocally. And you still choose to engage in a campaign that is detrimental to those of us grunts who don't share the beliefs of our admins.

You are currently in the military, correct? Does Obama represent YOU? He IS your CINC, after all, and he is calling for gun control. I suppose that means the military supports gun control, since the head of the military is calling for it. What about all the retardedness that JCS and other types routinely spout off about? Do they represent you, and others like you?

I saw a guy with 101st stickers all over his truck last election - he also had Obama stickers plastering it. Along with his military license plate, am I to assume he represents all military folks? And again, what about all those uniformed soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen I've seen at rallies for Obama? Do they represent YOU and YOUR opinions? Maybe the military should step up, and say they don't support their CINC's opinions. While I know the UCMJ prohibits some behaviors like that, shouldn't your principles come first?

Oh wait. Can't have people getting in trouble for voicing their opinions while in uniform. We expect it from LE, but not from servicemen, right?
I'll admit to not knowing you very well, your message in the post above didn't elevate you in any way in my book. This hits home for ALL of us. I want your family to have the most effective tools available. Mine too, even if they are not LEO's.

Lets take a step back and regroup. You're upset because some companies are going to restrict sales of things not legally own able by civilians in states that have unreasonable gun control.

I'm supporting those companies. Why? Not because I don't like you or don't like police officers, but because it sounds very fair and gets attention.

I used to work at a military confinement facility in Mannheim, guess what, all people who wear a uniform are not good guys. I can think of a few who needed a needle then, and would love to be the guy that pushed the plunger on the "last needle"
on one particular active duty Major. A uniform might be an indicator, but it's not proof of anything. If you even do a superficial look around, you will find heroes and zeros in every group. I've also worked at an interrogation facility in Baghdad. Yeah, there have been several people that have threatened to kill me and my family if they ever got the chance. Some of those threats were just to try to get under my skin. Some were promises by very committed terrorists and former Bath party officials, others by true psychotics. Meh, it's just part of the job.

I've been retired from the Army for over 6 years. I don't get to carry AT4's in my truck. I really don't agree with NYS exempting retired officers from the magazine restriction.

Considering that, I think companies refusing to ship any product that is not compliant with the civilian restrictions to NYS is not only fair, it's funny. I hope the idea catches on and the citizens, with the support of law enforcement change the law. Time will tell. I hope publicity from this helps stall any potential stupid ineffectual gun control laws in Texas, Kentucky, and all the other states. Wisconsin has a bill that would ban any expanding bullets. http://www.examiner.com/article/wisc...ing-ammunition

So, if it passes, companies should only ship FMJ there, period, no exceptions.

That's fair.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:24   #482
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My pet corn snake is doing well. But sort of lazy since it's been cold here.
I stay away from those as much as possible; all the ones I've seen have been mean as, well, a snake
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:58   #483
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They don't want to arm those who will be disarming the people. If I were LE in one of those states I would resign and find another job, preferably in a free state.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:17   #484
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They don't want to arm those who will be disarming the people. If I were LE in one of those states I would resign and find another job, preferably in a free state.
That's far easier said than done these days.


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Old 02-22-2013, 11:05   #485
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My pet corn snake is doing well. But sort of lazy since it's been cold here.
So your snake i...naw, can't say that... I'd have to report myself.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:42   #486
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Why punish the citizens who are not breaking said laws?

The police aren't being "punished", they are being held to the same standard as everyone else.

Why are you attacking the MANUFACTURER, when your real enemies are the legislators.
This would be my position as well.

The people who are taking these weapons away from LEOs are the politicians who are passing these ridiculous restrictions.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:43   #487
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These companies aren't taking a stand against police departments. They're taking a stand against the applicable states. They're simply hoping that by applying pressure to the police departments they can affect change at the state level.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:15   #488
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As I said in a different thread, it's entirely possible for two people to take the same action for very different reasons. An example I used was Sarah Palin; a few probably filed ethics complaints against her out of honest concern. Others, though, knew that AK required her to pay her own bills in such cases and did it to harm her financially. The effect was the same.

Ditto this. There are people who're interested in a large political point. There are others who confuse equipment for duties with toys for recreation. There are still other driving factors. But just like Palin, the results are the same. Non-cops who want to decry us-vs-them need to understand that the end result we're seeing is that the front line guy gets to deal with problems lacking critical gear. I fully understand the cops who wish those problems on you.

There's more, but I'm pecking on a phone. I'll expand and clarify later.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:32   #489
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Sam,

Lets not forget logistical realities. Departments in NYS probably have quite a few 15 round pistol mags and 30 round rifle mags. NYS is not asking them to ship the mags out of state or destroy them. They will have them. Now, an officer or retired officer might be inconvenienced if they waited too long to stock up on such items for personal use, but what's so unfair about that? There will be workarounds, like buying mags from law enforcement agencies from out of state, and not all companies are going to pass on a sale for political principle. The real impact on front line law enforcement is going to be negligible.

Citizens WILL be relegated to less capacity, they will feel the pinch, not just fear it.

Yes, this issue strikes a chord. That's not a bad thing. It's kind of upsetting thinking about it being harder to have normal capacity mags in your off duty pistols and rifles, and a couple million or so citizens share your pain. Welcome to the party. Get angry about it, write some letters with the rest of us and let's stop the madness.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:57   #490
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Aside from being grammatically a mess, your diatribe does not answer the question.

Why punish the cops who do not make the idiotic laws?
Because the fear is they will follow orders of the tyrants and perpetrate further tyranny on the people. Remember the Gestapo was the police.
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Old 02-22-2013, 13:44   #491
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Ditto this. There are people who're interested in a large political point. There are others who confuse equipment for duties with toys for recreation. There are still other driving factors. But just like Palin, the results are the same. Non-cops who want to decry us-vs-them need to understand that the end result we're seeing is that the front line guy gets to deal with problems lacking critical gear. I fully understand the cops who wish those problems on you.
Well to be fair, there are some cops who decry an us vs them philosophy too. I don't know how you can think that citizens don't face those same problems but with a lot less help, armament, while those "problems" are actually occurring.

I can probably count on 2 hands the number of in progress violent crimes I have been involved in. We are mostly reactive as cops. To me, wishing citizens faced these same problems we do (which they already do) is like me wishing you'll would get to experience the cancer my folks died from.
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Old 02-22-2013, 13:57   #492
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post

Yes, this issue strikes a chord. That's not a bad thing. It's kind of upsetting thinking about it being harder to have normal capacity mags in your off duty pistols and rifles, and a couple million or so citizens share your pain. Welcome to the party. Get angry about it, write some letters with the rest of us and let's stop the madness.

I agree.
It does strike a cord, and it should. That is the point. The problem is people are directing their anger/frustration at the wrong people. Don't get mad at the gun manufactures or the people who are supporting them. Direct your energy towards the people that are causing this in the first place....the politicians. We are on the same side and should stop bickering amongst ourselves.
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Old 02-22-2013, 14:25   #493
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Don't want to be limited with the equipment of the populace? Join the fight.

Its really that simple. Don't enforce unconstiutional laws, don't support orginazations that push to disarm the people.

The citizen's rifle may not always be for recreation. The militia is the people, and it may one day come down to the rifle securing a free society.

I bet the jews wished they hadn't turned their guns in.
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Old 02-22-2013, 14:31   #494
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The concept is fully and completely understood. All life is equally valuable.

Some lives are put at risk more often than others, some by choice through job requirements, others by undesired, unfortunate happenstance.

In which group would you consider yourself? I would now be in the latter group. I don't go where trouble has the better chance of engaging me anymore.

I don't believe perceived need(risk) should be part of the equation to qualify for a natural right. But I don't perceive my risk/need to be tremendously greater then most folks.
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Old 02-22-2013, 14:53   #495
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I don't believe perceived need(risk) should be part of the equation to qualify for a natural right. But I don't perceive my risk/need to be tremendously greater then most folks.
Criminals usually victimize the community. That community needs protection, and its not call 911 and pray for the best.

The police typically respond to things that have already happened.
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Old 02-22-2013, 16:24   #496
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Welcome to the party. Get angry about it, write some letters with the rest of us and let's stop the madness.
Agreed. The assumption that none of us are doing this already is what pisses a lot of people here off. I personally know several guys who have written their legislators, again identifying themselves as LE (whether that's a smart thing to do or not) and not a single officer who favors this crap, yet everyone still wants to throw the us/them thing in our faces.

Someone telling me "You have an attitude that clearly shows you think LEO need more and our better than other American citizens. You are pathetic and represent what is worst in American law enforcement" after I completely endorse armed citizens is a sign that things are running on pure emotion and that people may be reading the words, but they aren't hearing the message (sounds just like those legislators we are all taking about huh).

I want my family and friends to have the same means to protect themselves just as I'm sure the other guys in this forum do. That's why you shouldn't think that just because we can have access to certain items at work, that we are unconcerned or have no skin in the game.

Those who are advocating that if a few cops die that will just be too bad and maybe will make the legislators change their minds are spitting in the faces of people who are on their side, but may not be for long if the feeling isn't reciprocal. The notion that the communities we serve would be happy to throw us to the wolves to make a political statement is unsettling.

We have all heard the bias of the cop haters that come into this forum on a regular basis and whether you intend it to or not, this sounds much the same and evokes the same emotions and response.

For the record, I don't think this is as big an issue as some think it is, especially in my state. Reality is that even if every manufacturer in the country jumped on board, it would take some time for the effects to trickle down and there would always be companies who will break ranks for a dollar. Also, I'm sure there are plenty of countries who would love to supply govt contracts for equipment as well if it ever came to that.

However it does send a strong message to legislators and may have some positive impact on the current situation for everyone. From the other side of the fence it creates a polarizing effect even among those who profess to be on the same side of the issue, and makes it that much easier for them to divide and concor. From that standpoint it seems pretty effective. I hate to give any of them credit for such a plan as I'm sure it's a completely unintended consequence, but it does seem to be accomplishing their objectives.

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You insult them, demean them, accuse them, ridicule them and now ask them to stand by you. Nice approach. See, here's the problem. Everyone here is already on our side of the line. Open your eyes.
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Old 02-22-2013, 17:08   #497
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Don't want to be limited with the equipment of the populace? Join the fight.

Its really that simple. Don't enforce unconstiutional laws, don't support orginazations that push to disarm the people.

The citizen's rifle may not always be for recreation. The militia is the people, and it may one day come down to the rifle securing a free society.

I bet the jews wished they hadn't turned their guns in.

I agree with you. I would also say: if it is only for recreation, so what! Telling people WHAT they can use a gun for is as bad as saying they shouldn't have an AR.
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Old 02-22-2013, 17:19   #498
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The expectation to go into harms way every day, and sometimes have it follow you home. Where a civilian may have to deal with some of these idiots from time to time, cops are the ones expected to deal with them all of the time, mostly in a confrontational manner due to the situation.
However, cops chose that profession because of the perks. Nobody held a gun to their head or twisted their arm. One of those perks includes the insatiable need for a frequent adrenalin rush.
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Old 02-22-2013, 17:27   #499
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Originally Posted by GumbyDammit View Post
Agreed. The assumption that none of us are doing this already is what pisses a lot of people here off. I personally know several guys who have written their legislators, again identifying themselves as LE (whether that's a smart thing to do or not) and not a single officer who favors this crap, yet everyone still wants to throw the us/them thing in our faces.
Glad to hear you are on the team. I truly believe that generally speaking, generalizing is bad. There will be good and bad among any group.

Quote:

Someone telling me "You have an attitude that clearly shows you think LEO need more and our better than other American citizens. You are pathetic and represent what is worst in American law enforcement" after I completely endorse armed citizens is a sign that things are running on pure emotion and that people may be reading the words, but they aren't hearing the message (sounds just like those legislators we are all taking about huh).

I want my family and friends to have the same means to protect themselves just as I'm sure the other guys in this forum do. That's why you shouldn't think that just because we can have access to certain items at work, that we are unconcerned or have no skin in the game.

Those who are advocating that if a few cops die that will just be too bad and maybe will make the legislators change their minds are spitting in the faces of people who are on their side, but may not be for long if the feeling isn't reciprocal. The notion that the communities we serve would be happy to throw us to the wolves to make a political statement is unsettling.
Those that are advocating that a few cops die are reprehensible. So are some of the cops hoping that I have an active shooter at my home. The emotion is running way too high on this subject, calm calculation and coordination is called for.

Quote:
We have all heard the bias of the cop haters that come into this forum on a regular basis and whether you intend it to or not, this sounds much the same and evokes the same emotions and response.

For the record, I don't think this is as big an issue as some think it is, especially in my state. Reality is that even if every manufacturer in the country jumped on board, it would take some time for the effects to trickle down and there would always be companies who will break ranks for a dollar. Also, I'm sure there are plenty of countries who would love to supply govt contracts for equipment as well if it ever came to that.
I pointed out the logistical realities previously, even if every single gun part seller in the country signed on, it would take years before NYS had any shortages, and that would probably be handled through back door deals with out of state law enforcement, they will find a way to get them. The LEO's and retired guys might have some problems getting some for their off work use, but that would even take a while, they won't be asked to turn them in, destroy them or send them out of state, they can keep what they have.

They have a distinct advantage over their law abiding citizen neighbors, who have to get rid of theirs or become criminals. That kinda makes it sound like it sucks for regular Joe's, and not so much for LEO's in NYS. And that is true.

Quote:

However it does send a strong message to legislators and may have some positive impact on the current situation for everyone. From the other side of the fence it creates a polarizing effect even among those who profess to be on the same side of the issue, and makes it that much easier for them to divide and concor. From that standpoint it seems pretty effective. I hate to give any of them credit for such a plan as I'm sure it's a completely unintended consequence, but it does seem to be accomplishing their objectives.
I say we all get together, and present a combined front, law abiding citizens, and law enforcement. Many of the Sheriffs in my state are vowing to not enforce any federal bans. There is even a bill to make it a criminal offense for a federal LEO to attempt to enforce them on the soil of TX. Not sure how well that will actually work, but it's a good message to send. We don't need that stuff down here.

The publicity this is getting is a good thing. If you live in NYS, I wish you all the best. But there are millions of law abiding citizens that are going to be short on 7 round magazines very soon. I'm worried about them too.
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Old 02-22-2013, 17:38   #500
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I was waiting to see how long it took for the "I pay your salary" line to be dropped.

I guess I could say, "I eat at McDonald's. so, I guess I pay your salary too."

That's a stupid argument. Everyone pays everyone's salary. Trade for goods and services. That's how a free market economy works.

As for pension... Our retirement system is privately owned and operated, by our own members. Our retirees don't live off the government teat.


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