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Old 02-23-2013, 00:33   #526
Pepper45
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Corn snakes are very docile and mild mannered. They are very good as pets. Now, a garter or shovel nosed hog snake... those get quite squirrely and spray some nasty smelling chemicals when disturbed.



Right...
I never had you pegged as a snake kinda guy. I would have thought you were into birds if forced to guess.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:31   #527
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If you were on the Guard side, I know how you could go to Africa on 24 hours notice!
I wouldn't mind going to Africa, but the pay is a LOT lower and I'd rather go where there's a war on.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:13   #528
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I wouldn't mind going to Africa, but the pay is a LOT lower and I'd rather go where there's a war on.
FWIW my old Guard unit has been doing more combat missions in Africa with S.F. for the past two years than we did in Iraq for OIF 09-11, and they are getting paid more.

Funny/sad thing is the US Border Patrol mission pays more than Iraq by a few hundred a month, and Texas guys go home on the weekends...


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Old 02-23-2013, 07:14   #529
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[quote=Cavalry Doc;20020541]Swing and a miss brother. Unless you were trying to make a racial remark.


Maybe you missed post 481?[/img]

Oh, so when you post pictures of LEO's with Obama and Biden that ISN'T racist, but if I post a picture of troops adoring Obama that IS racist? You can't win the argument so you bust out the race card. That is pretty low. I thought you at least had a modicum of thoughtfulness. I guess it turns out I have thought to highly of you in the past.


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You need to understand that I am not one of those anti-police kind of guys. I'm actually very pro-law enforcement. The enemy is the liberal state legislatures, not the law enforcement officers. Yeah, there are some that applaud restricting normal civilian gun rights, and there are some soldiers that luv them sum Barry. So what?
That was my point. You can't condmen all LEOs and demand that their equipment be restricted based on the actions of a few idiots. In the same way you can't comdemn all the Military of loving Obama and all his firearms restrictions.

But, on both sides you have people who do. So, in no wise should LEO's who put their lives on the line everyday, be denied proper equipment than there should be a denial of the military who put their lives on the line only when there is a war.

Quote:
I do support the 30+ gun manufacturers that will not sell civilian restricted items to New York, period, no exceptions.
So, I guess the military units comming from New York should be equally screwed then? As I have pointed out there is a bastion that love Obama and all this shananigans. So, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. You want cops on the street risking their lives with 7 rounds? Then I expect to see NY military troops in Afghanistan with 7 round AR-15 rounds (yes, only the semi-auto, not the full auto as the good folks from NY can't own a full auto) and 7 round Beretta 92F magazines.

Quote:
I think that is a good thing. It will have virtually no impact to the safety of law enforcement officers, and at the same time get their attention, and the attention of the press.

Win win in my book. Aren't you glad we don't live in New York?
Yes, I would hate to be risking my life with restricted equipment in NY. But, hey, that's okay, then you shouldn't have any qualms with troops from NY risking their life with limited equipment, right?
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:21   #530
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FWIW my old Guard unit has been doing more combat missions in Africa with S.F. for the past two years than we did in Iraq for OIF 09-11, and they are getting paid more.

Funny/sad thing is the US Border Patrol mission pays more than Iraq by a few hundred a month, and Texas guys go home on the weekends...

Greetings from Task Force Raptor in the Horn of Africa - YouTube

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charli...29411597150964
The US Border Patrol guys are in an undeclared warzone with Mexican Military, Groupo Beta, and others taking pot shots at them everyday. It never makes the news. It never makes the news when their military units invade the United States either, except in cases too public to not make it. For instance, when they came across and started firing on Sherrif's vehicles as well.

They get rocked everyday and not pebbles, the stuff that crushes vehicles. They get hurt and killed. The murders that make the news are mostly centered around Operation Fast and Furious because that made the news.

Most hellacious firefights and murders rarely do make the news. They are the forgoten.

So, with BORTAC comes to play with you (the Border Patrol version of Seals), and I have known some. They go through the equivalent training. I am not suprised they got sent over to play with you guys. Border Patrol by trade are excellent sign cutters.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:52   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Swing and a miss brother. Unless you were trying to make a racial remark.


Maybe you missed post 481?[/img]
Oh, so when you post pictures of LEO's with Obama and Biden that ISN'T racist, but if I post a picture of troops adoring Obama that IS racist? You can't win the argument so you bust out the race card. That is pretty low. I thought you at least had a modicum of thoughtfulness. I guess it turns out I have thought to highly of you in the past.
That was tongue in cheek. Maybe a bit over the top. Well.... OK, not maybe, it was over the top. My bad.

The unstated point is that regardless of uniform worn, there are Barry supporters out there. Uniforms are no guarantee of political intelligence. If you looked at the demographics in the exit polls, you could point to a racial affinity for Obama much easier than an affinity by a particular uniform.

Quote:
That was my point. You can't condmen all LEOs and demand that their equipment be restricted based on the actions of a few idiots. In the same way you can't comdemn all the Military of loving Obama and all his firearms restrictions.
I'm not condemning all LEO's. Some here are, and I'm not with that group. I've also repeatedly pointed out the logistical realities that even if every firearms manufacturer, and distributor stopped all sales of everything to NYS, they will still have exactly what they have today. It will last a long while. If they need something, there will be a way to get it. It's not like Bloomberg has not sent his people out of state to make straw purchases before. Other LEO agencies will cross level with them, in a time of need. No one expects them to go without. Now, it might be harder for police to buy items for personal or off duty use, but on the job, I have every reason to believe they will not be carrying flintlocks on the next crack-house no knock raid.

Quote:

But, on both sides you have people who do. So, in no wise should LEO's who put their lives on the line everyday, be denied proper equipment than there should be a denial of the military who put their lives on the line only when there is a war.



So, I guess the military units comming from New York should be equally screwed then? As I have pointed out there is a bastion that love Obama and all this shananigans. So, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. You want cops on the street risking their lives with 7 rounds? Then I expect to see NY military troops in Afghanistan with 7 round AR-15 rounds (yes, only the semi-auto, not the full auto as the good folks from NY can't own a full auto) and 7 round Beretta 92F magazines.

Yes, I would hate to be risking my life with restricted equipment in NY. But, hey, that's okay, then you shouldn't have any qualms with troops from NY risking their life with limited equipment, right?


The military has a lot of stuff sitting in warehouses. On my last deployment to Iraq, I was issued my weapons, ammo, magazines and body armor once in theater.

The logistical reality is that no police or military unit will do without anything. Trust me, there are too many people out there who know how to get things. You are mistaking what will happen to the civilian populace with what will not happen to the police and military.

The civilians will be stuck with 7 round mags. The Bad Guys are going to be sporting the full size ones. Right now, if a civilian in new york loses count, and puts 8 rounds in a 10 round magazine, he's a criminal. The ONLY group materially affected by the ban and the stand being taken by gun manufacturers are the civilians, minus the retired LEO (who are civilians too, but they were able to get a "some animals are more equal than others" exemption).

The move by these manufacturers is an attention getter. That part is working beautifully. Hopefully, more companies join them.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:02   #532
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To the OP, here's a list of companies that are taking a stance. Go whine at them.

http://www.thepoliceloophole.com/

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:06   #533
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Aside from being grammatically a mess, your diatribe does not answer the question.

Why punish the cops who do not make the idiotic laws?
Why punish any citizen that does not make the idiotic law? They are citizens and are in the same boat that we all find ourselves.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:09   #534
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
To the OP, here's a list of companies that are taking a stance. Go whine at them.

http://www.thepoliceloophole.com/

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
If you think about it, it's a protection from liability for the companies doing this. What if they fell for fraudulent credentials and sold a restricted item to a bad guy, then the bad guy used that in a crime that injured another. They may be open to a tort claim due to not taking due diligence in ensuring the sale was made to an authorized individual.

Easiest thing to do, is only sell things that are legal for anyone in the state to own.

37 companies and counting. Some of them are rather large and well known. At least 3 are frequently seen on TV.

Good for them.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:26   #535
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I just had the best bagel sandwich.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:34   #536
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Originally Posted by mntrpr View Post
I just had the best bagel sandwich.
Looks like you can relax for a while.

Gun Control DOA In Minnesota


After your break, consider writing a few emails in support of those that live in less fortunate states. Maybe even send a check to the NYSRPA.org.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:57   #537
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Looks like you can relax for a while.

Gun Control DOA In Minnesota


After your break, consider writing a few emails in support of those that live in less fortunate states. Maybe even send a check to the NYSRPA.org.
After my break, I'm headed to Gander Mountain to see if any new toys came in, to the chiropractor, then to my local gun store.

It's shaping up to be a good day.

In all seriousness, most of us here believe the gun control measures are not as dead as they are making them out to be.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:19   #538
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Don't know, seems to me like Olys fighting the right fight. That's some brass the FOP asking Oly for ad revenue while supporting restrictions on lawful citizens, which would negatively impact Oly sales. If you can't influence your politicians; maybe you should start with your union.

I'm glad to be moving to Texas.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?s=fop
Olympic Arms Statement to ‘FOP Journal’

Olympic Arms was recently asked to advertise in the FOP Journal; the official magazine of the Fraternal Order of Police. It is well known that the FOP is a staunch supporter of Gun Control, had backed the AWB under Bill Clinton, and supports the current AWB under consideration that was introduced by Diane Feinstein. The FOP was actually accredited as being one of the sources that helped prepare the language of Gun Control suggestions that were forwarded by Vice President Biden. Below is a copy of our response to the FOP Journal;:
Please forward this email to every major principal in your organization.

AS:
  1. The Fraternal Order of Police is on Congressional Record as having been a major supporter of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.
  2. As a matter of fact and record, the FOP is accredited with assisting VP Biden in formulating the language of the newly proposed ban:
  3. Additionally, as a matter of fact and public record, the FOP is in support of the newly recommended Assault Weapons Ban introduced by Senator Feinstein.
THEREFORE:
Olympic Arms, Inc, manufacturers of AR15 type firearms, firearms that these legislators would call “Assault Weapons”, will not be supporting in any way, shape, form or fashion, The Fraternal Order of Police, any organization that represents, supports, takes advertising dollars from, spends advertising dollars with, is in anyway related to, any individual who is a card carrying member of, or any person or entity in any way associated with the Fraternal Order of Police. Period.

Henceforth;
  • Be assured that Olympic Arms will not rest in its efforts to educate our customers, fans and followers the extent of the hypocrisy committed by the FOP and FOP Journal; (fighting to outlaw the firearms produced by the very companies they now solicit for advertising dollars…). You can also be certain that we continue to make every effort to properly educate the firearms consumer in general, of the same.
  • Additionally, we will make continued efforts at assure that ALL firearms manufacturers are aware of the FOP’s support to strip Constitutional Rights from Americans, and their support of further unconstitutional gun control legislation.
  • We pledge to inform all of our customers the lengths that the FOP and associated FOP affiliates by proxy (which includes all your advertisers) are willing to go to in order to strip the American Citizen of their Constitutional Rights, while at the same time writing in exemptions to the same legislation to ensure that their members maintain those same rights they would have stripped from others.
  • Your actions are the actions of a rogue organization supporting tyranny, not an organization sworn to uphold the laws of the land, to protect, serve and defend their constituencies.
Let it be known that your actions are reprehensible and shameful.
Sincerely,
Thomas A. Spithaler
Sales & Marketing Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.

Last edited by dudel; 02-23-2013 at 09:20..
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:50   #539
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
To the OP, here's a list of companies that are taking a stance. Go whine at them.

http://www.thepoliceloophole.com/

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
Careful. Your hypocrisy is showing. You and I both agreed sometime ago that the NFA is a 2A infringement. Yet here you are advocating infringement for a specific segment of society.

Did you kenpo yourself in the head last we dialogued?
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:53   #540
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Originally Posted by dudel View Post
Don't know, seems to me like Olys fighting the right fight. That's some brass the FOP asking Oly for ad revenue while supporting restrictions on lawful citizens, which would negatively impact Oly sales. If you can't influence your politicians; maybe you should start with your union.

I'm glad to be moving to Texas.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?s=fop
Olympic Arms Statement to ‘FOP Journal’

Olympic Arms was recently asked to advertise in the FOP Journal; the official magazine of the Fraternal Order of Police. It is well known that the FOP is a staunch supporter of Gun Control, had backed the AWB under Bill Clinton, and supports the current AWB under consideration that was introduced by Diane Feinstein. The FOP was actually accredited as being one of the sources that helped prepare the language of Gun Control suggestions that were forwarded by Vice President Biden. Below is a copy of our response to the FOP Journal;:
Please forward this email to every major principal in your organization.


AS:
  1. The Fraternal Order of Police is on Congressional Record as having been a major supporter of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.
  2. As a matter of fact and record, the FOP is accredited with assisting VP Biden in formulating the language of the newly proposed ban:
  3. Additionally, as a matter of fact and public record, the FOP is in support of the newly recommended Assault Weapons Ban introduced by Senator Feinstein.
THEREFORE:
Olympic Arms, Inc, manufacturers of AR15 type firearms, firearms that these legislators would call “Assault Weapons”, will not be supporting in any way, shape, form or fashion, The Fraternal Order of Police, any organization that represents, supports, takes advertising dollars from, spends advertising dollars with, is in anyway related to, any individual who is a card carrying member of, or any person or entity in any way associated with the Fraternal Order of Police. Period.


Henceforth;
  • Be assured that Olympic Arms will not rest in its efforts to educate our customers, fans and followers the extent of the hypocrisy committed by the FOP and FOP Journal; (fighting to outlaw the firearms produced by the very companies they now solicit for advertising dollars…). You can also be certain that we continue to make every effort to properly educate the firearms consumer in general, of the same.
  • Additionally, we will make continued efforts at assure that ALL firearms manufacturers are aware of the FOP’s support to strip Constitutional Rights from Americans, and their support of further unconstitutional gun control legislation.
  • We pledge to inform all of our customers the lengths that the FOP and associated FOP affiliates by proxy (which includes all your advertisers) are willing to go to in order to strip the American Citizen of their Constitutional Rights, while at the same time writing in exemptions to the same legislation to ensure that their members maintain those same rights they would have stripped from others.
  • Your actions are the actions of a rogue organization supporting tyranny, not an organization sworn to uphold the laws of the land, to protect, serve and defend their constituencies.
Let it be known that your actions are reprehensible and shameful.
Sincerely,
Thomas A. Spithaler
Sales & Marketing Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
I've never been a member of the FOP. I have been am a union member, carry professional lability insurance, and FLEOA, none of which have come out against firearms. The only reason I carry any of those is simple CYA.

As to Olympic Arms, I suspect they are trying to get attention and drum up business for their crappy wares. They are one step above Blackthorne, and I don't know any professional people that actually trust their lives to their crap.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:59   #541
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
If you think about it, it's a protection from liability for the companies doing this. What if they fell for fraudulent credentials and sold a restricted item to a bad guy, then the bad guy used that in a crime that injured another. They may be open to a tort claim due to not taking due diligence in ensuring the sale was made to an authorized individual.

Easiest thing to do, is only sell things that are legal for anyone in the state to own.

37 companies and counting. Some of them are rather large and well known. At least 3 are frequently seen on TV.

Good for them.
That is just silly. Regular officer sales cannot be made without verifiable agency/department letter head.

Those sales don't include NFA weapons.

Departments/Agencies negotiate contracts with manufacturers to buy in bulk.

The tiny distrubters and fly-by-nighters just want free publicity.

The main manufacturers are out for lucrative contracts. Those are the folks that buy in bulk.

Further, for Agencies and Departments to obtain NFA weapons, that has to all be cleared and verified by the BATFE.

So, there is no "oppsies" involved by the folks of Colt, Smith and Wesson, Glock, etc.

The hierachy for manufacturers has been and always will be the following:

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

Ammunition works in the same vein.

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

The shortage has to do with the panic of the folks in item number 3.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:26   #542
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As to Olympic Arms, I suspect they are trying to get attention and drum up business...
It's often said, "Do not support those who do not support us," usually referencing businesses with "NO FIREARMS" signs on their doors.

Supporting gun owners should result in more business.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:50   #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
That is just silly. Regular officer sales cannot be made without verifiable agency/department letter head.

Those sales don't include NFA weapons.

Departments/Agencies negotiate contracts with manufacturers to buy in bulk.

The tiny distrubters and fly-by-nighters just want free publicity.

The main manufacturers are out for lucrative contracts. Those are the folks that buy in bulk.

Further, for Agencies and Departments to obtain NFA weapons, that has to all be cleared and verified by the BATFE.

So, there is no "oppsies" involved by the folks of Colt, Smith and Wesson, Glock, etc.

The hierachy for manufacturers has been and always will be the following:

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

Ammunition works in the same vein.

1. Military Sales
2. Law Enforcement Sales
3. Everyone else

The shortage has to do with the panic of the folks in item number 3.
Midway USA, Cheaper than Dirt and a few others are far from fly-by-night companies.

I've already told you how this action being taken will cause no problems for on the job military or law enforcement.

Why are you resistant to these companies expressing support for their customers?

It won't hurt you. I won't hurt LEO or military on the job in NYS, and it gets attention.

It's a win-win. I've never been in favor of special carve out exemptions for the special few. Instead of complaining about civilians, get on board and write a few letters, maybe even a check, and lets try to get NYS to back off their bad idea.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:22   #544
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More On The Line Than Just Guns

Talk about a "hot" subject!
Law enforcement is not one 'big happy family' and perhaps never has been... of late however there are some in big city (and probably small that we don't hear about) who 'sidle up to the political left' posing for opportunity (and perhaps advancement) with politicians who do not have America's best interests or future in mind. Self-serving politicians and, probably, self-serving Chiefs. The foot soldier cop has his hands full trying to walk the tightrope that has been stretched taut and dangerous by the 'very' same politicians that their 'Chief' is now buddy-buddy with. There are only a handful of states where this behavior is rampant and it 'appears' that it is to those entities that these "companies" will refuse sales.

Part of this is preservation. If "all" the gun restrictions that are being pushed by these self-serving (and IMHO Anti-American) pols and their 'Chief' buddies pass than a gigantic segment of the firearms, ammo and peripheral business will go belly up. And if that does happen we'll be back to square one, "who will there be to sell to LE and other agencies?"

This issue is "more" than just us shooters vs "gun haters/takers" but runs to the fundamentals of our national existence. And the broadside against 'gun rights' is being done concurrently with overspending that will cripple our future, under-education and party specific education that will ensure a progressive agenda for many generations. We will be a third world nation in ten to fifteen years if this juggernaut of radical socialism is not slowed and turned. One by one the Rights guaranteed thru the "Natural Laws" are being attacked and stripped away. Soon we'll be arguing about a cave gap.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:53   #545
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Careful. Your hypocrisy is showing. You and I both agreed sometime ago that the NFA is a 2A infringement. Yet here you are advocating infringement for a specific segment of society.

Did you kenpo yourself in the head last we dialogued?
Seriously, this is how you think???? They're private companies, they don't have the power of the legislature to curtail my rights.

If you think that's infringement on your part, you're crazy.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:08   #546
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Midway USA, Cheaper than Dirt and a few others are far from fly-by-night companies.

I've already told you how this action being taken will cause no problems for on the job military or law enforcement.

Why are you resistant to these companies expressing support for their customers?

It won't hurt you. I won't hurt LEO or military on the job in NYS, and it gets attention.

It's a win-win. I've never been in favor of special carve out exemptions for the special few. Instead of complaining about civilians, get on board and write a few letters, maybe even a check, and lets try to get NYS to back off their bad idea.
How is it a win win? I suspect you would feel differently, if companies came out and said, we are anti-miliatry.

You and very vet would be beating their chest.

I am sorry, but when people blame Law Enforcement for the mess, they themselves as voters, who consistantly put the liberals in power who made all these laws I have no sympathy.

To me it is like a congregation voting in ministers who are pro-gay marriage. The clergy then hold a gay marriage ceremony. The congregation is so incesensed they beat the janitor.

The people of NY have constistantly voted liberal. Now, they are angry at work-a-day guys that put their lives ont he line for the ungreatful, who had nothing to do with the choices the voters of NY made for themselves.

NYPD didn't put Cuomo in office. The citizens of NY did that. Yet suddenly it is NYPD's fault?

That's beyond stupid.
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:15   #547
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Seriously, this is how you think???? They're private companies, they don't have the power of the legislature to curtail my rights.

If you think that's infringement on your part, you're crazy.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
Well, since we have already played the race card once today. Let me give you a scenario and see how just you think it is.

Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country. The majority of those crimes are committed by Afirican Americans.

So, to make a stand against homocides predmonately commited by firearms, pedominately commited by Afirican Americans in Chicago, should companies then be allowed to say they will not sell to Afircan Americans and that they must present proof of ethnicity prior to purchase?

That makes more sense than saying that companies will not seel to LEO's.

So, would you get behind companies doing that?

You seem to be behind denying people who are willing to put their lives on the line for people like you who:

1. Don't appreciate it.
2. Would rather spit on them.

Yes, I do recall you jumping all over a retired NYPD cop for daring to retire in your state and having a pension, so I think item number 2 is applicable.

So, please, share your further thoughts on companies refusing to sell to certain segments of soceity.
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:35   #548
kenpoprofessor
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Well, since we have already played the race card once today. Let me give you a scenario and see how just you think it is.

Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country. The majority of those crimes are committed by Afirican Americans.

So, to make a stand against homocides predmonately commited by firearms, pedominately commited by Afirican Americans in Chicago, should companies then be allowed to say they will not sell to Afircan Americans and that they must present proof of ethnicity prior to purchase?

That makes more sense than saying that companies will not seel to LEO's.

So, would you get behind companies doing that?

You seem to be behind denying people who are willing to put their lives on the line for people like you who:

1. Don't appreciate it.
2. Would rather spit on them.

Yes, I do recall you jumping all over a retired NYPD cop for daring to retire in your state and having a pension, so I think item number 2 is applicable.

So, please, share your further thoughts on companies refusing to sell to certain segments of soceity.
1. I haven't played the race card, and have no idea what you're talking about.

2. I have never had occasion to utilize the services of police in 50+ years, so they've never put their lives on the line for me. I served 11 honorable years in the USAF, and I put myself in that category to serve my family and the American people.

3. I have some pretty close friends that are both cops and federal agents, so no I don't want to spit on them, just some.

4. A "PRIVATE" business should not have the government tell them who they have to appease regarding race, color, creed, sexual orientation, or religious views. It is the nautre of the free enterprise system to weed discrimination out, but government gets involved and screws that up as well.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Last edited by kenpoprofessor; 02-23-2013 at 13:36..
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:23   #549
Fiery Red XIII
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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
Yes it is quite clear you fail to see the forrest through the trees.

No blame shifts my opinion is as valid as yours, this is a feel good ploy, if they were serious about gun rights they should boycott at the federal level. It does not effect me one bit I enjoy pointing out the hypocritical nature of it...you are the pawn here.
I agree with many of your points (the hypocracy and such)...I am no pawn. I've never stood behind anything for my company/profession that I didn't support/agree with...you may have not either, but of those LEO/FF/EMS who do those photo-ops, many have. And again, all of them are used as pawns, not saying hey all ARE pawns. When the governor/president/etc. all say they will cut police/fire/ems first if they don't get their tax increases or whatever else they want, that is using them as pawns.

Red
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:28   #550
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian

Definition of CIVILIAN

1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force

b: outsider
Once again, the EMS gets screwed. lol.

Red
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