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Old 02-21-2013, 18:36   #381
countrygun
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Where do we draw the line?

Suppose someone, like me, doesn't "retire" but goes into a different line of work? I was threatened by at least two very bad people I helped put behind bars (that I had reason to believe), with fatal consequences should we ever meet again. Because I didn't "retire on the job" I am stuck with just the "average" citizen's weapon, or do I get "special treatment"?

What about my life since? I served on a jury that sentenced a career criminal to the death penalty. He is none too happy with myself and the rest of the jury. Suppose it had been an offense that saw him released in a few years? Should those jurors who were doing their civic duty be restricted to "less effective" means of defense than a retired Cop?

BTW how many of these legal "exemptions" include Judges?

As pro LE as I am I do not see a benefit in dividing people into "special classes", not at least, if one small class wants the support of the much larger class.
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Old 02-21-2013, 18:42   #382
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So Calvary Doc using your logic I will state that anyone who lives in a country with an AWB/ isn't second amendment friendly, should not have access to restricted items. I'm sure most LEOs are flattered that you believe they have the power to create and shape laws. I will use my direct line to the Governor and state senate to tell them how its going to be.

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Live with the laws where you live. Don't ask for any special considerations that I don't get either. Fair is fair brother, and I want you to have the firepower to overcome any criminal. Bust my balls if you want to, but I have fought three wars on two continents, and I am asking to be treated just like my neighbor that is a normal citizen.
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Old 02-21-2013, 18:45   #383
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Just remember, you all are playing a dangerous game with the lives of cops and non cops alike in the hopes it'll get the attention of the legislators. What if it doesn't? What if the legislators don't give a damn? They've already shown they don't care what the public thinks, why would they care any more about a small subset (the cops). Now all of a sudden it's 10 years from now and only the bad guys have high cap mags?

Will it have been worth it then? Cops showing up to active shooters with 7 rounds in their handgun and no long gun, just so we could try and send a message to some elected mooks who don't hear it?

Again, a dangerous game is being played, and many of you are ignorantly ok with it.
I'm fine with that. My job used to be to show up where another soldier had been injured. It did not matter whether that was from indirect or direct fire. I have been threatened by criminals and AQ terrorists.

Please tell me where you deserve more effective weapons than I do.

I'd love to hear that justification.

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Old 02-21-2013, 18:45   #384
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Agreed Mike. Another aspect is if this whole crap storm does go down, you have another argument working against you..."16 round magazines! The cops aren't even allowed to carry something that big." Even if you believe in the everyone is equal sentiment, it doesn't mean the other side does. Remember don't use arguments that make sense to you, use arguments that make sense to the opposition.

I have this mental image of a guy hugging is high cap mag crying. He then throws it off a cliff and shouts " If I can't have you, then no one can!" Just like in any situation those words have been uttered, this one seems selfish and short-sighted.

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Old 02-21-2013, 18:50   #385
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Not sure if his as been posted yet......but the same LEO departments that have their Union reps and Chiefs appear on the stage with the Mayors pushing for the restriction/confiscation/registration of firearms need to feel the same pain that their elected officials sanction and support. Your Union rep supports the Mayor's idea or your Chief supports it.....reap the results. You support them tacitly with your paycheck and electing them to their current position. Now you seek to blame those that would stand beside the Constitution for your status as persona non grata.....how about holding your leadership responsible for supporting a politician that seeks to undermine the rights of the same citizenry you are sworn to serve and protect.
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Old 02-21-2013, 18:50   #386
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I'm fine with that. My job used to be to show up where another soldier had been injured. It did not matter whether that was from indirect or direct fire. I have been threatened by criminals and AQ terrorists.

Please tell me where you deserve more effective weapons than I do.

I'd love to hear that justification.

Doc I appreciate your service but its not worth my effort to explain it for the umpteenth time, you won't listen. You clearly haven't cared to read any of my previous posts on this thread so it's really pointless to keep going.

No one is saying anyone deserves more than anyone else, but a cop exemption is usually and easy sell and should be a stop gap until we can fix these laws.

Until the arrogant and selfish non cops (a cohort i belong to) can see through the perceived injustice and recognize that a current exemption should be exploited so that good guys can still have appropriate firepower, then the gun control nuts win.
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Old 02-21-2013, 18:55   #387
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With all do respect Doc, when's the last time you and one of those AQ stood next to each other in the line at the grocery store? But even still, I won't deny that you have the right to protect yourself, but I feel that you blaming others who are granted special exceptions is selfish. Military personnel get plenty of perks not affored to the common civilian.

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Old 02-21-2013, 18:58   #388
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Nope. Really I don't.


I have been face to face with dozens of real AQ terrorists that have threatened to kill me and my family. This is not a movie script for me. I laid my hands on those guys. I may have fought with one or more of them when they got froggy. I've had nutjob crazy soldiers x 2 threaten me and my family.

Today, I am just a regular civilian. I am a retired commissioned officer that was a non-commissioned officer for almost 10 years , and get no special treatment. I don't see any need to give retired LEO any special privileges over those that I currently get. I don't see any need to give me any special consideration beyond what a sane normal citizen gets.

I am very pro-LEO. I am very anti-criminal. I am very pro-me.

Law abiding citizens deserve to have the same tools as any "special" section of society.

All animals are created equal. That sentiment should not be amended with "some animals are more equal than others".
Neat. I have operated with a 200k bounty on my head from Mexican Cartels. Been shot at by the Mexican Military, and had death threats for serving warrants of drug houses.

My life wasn't a movie script either.

But, it was a reality. It is a reality for lots of LEO's, consistantly, not just when America has yet another undeclared war.
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Old 02-21-2013, 19:51   #389
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All due respect here, how many cases are documented of someone from a retired officer's past confronting attempting to kill said retired officer? In how many of those cases would the capacity of the retired officer's firearm have been a factor?

I am just trying to politely ask the questions that some may not ask so politely, but that many are curious about so we can get realistic answers.
By that logic, why carry a gun at all? As a police officer or a private citizen, your chances of being involved in a deadly force incident are something on the order of .01%. If you're 99.99% likely NOT to need your gun, ever, why carry it?

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I'm fine with that. My job used to be to show up where another soldier had been injured. It did not matter whether that was from indirect or direct fire. I have been threatened by criminals and AQ terrorists.

Please tell me where you deserve more effective weapons than I do.

I'd love to hear that justification.

And that begs the question of what you had slung over your shoulder or strapped to your hip when you went to the area where a soldier had been wounded. Was it a handgun with a 7 round magazine? Did you carry a carbine or rifle? Did THAT weapon have a 7 round magazine?

Shot by enemy combatant is shot by enemy combatant, whether they're Al Quada, or the North Hollywood bank robbers. Bullets don't go easy on the victim because, "oh well, you're an American citizen on American soil and it's not wartime."

Once again, we DON'T need to be better armed than the populace, we need to be better armed than the best armed criminals we're protecting you from. If you don't see that, there's literally nothing I can say or do to fix your broken logic.
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Last edited by msu_grad_121; 02-21-2013 at 20:01.. Reason: My math sucked on that...
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:00   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 View Post
By that logic, why carry a gun at all? As a police officer or a private citizen, your chances of being involved in a deadly force incident are something on the order of .01%. If you're 99.9% likely NOT to need your gun, ever, why carry it?


And that relates to a group getting special privileges how?

Does that somehow justify one group getting a larger magazine than the other?
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:13   #391
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Doc I appreciate your service but its not worth my effort to explain it for the umpteenth time, you won't listen. You clearly haven't cared to read any of my previous posts on this thread so it's really pointless to keep going.

No one is saying anyone deserves more than anyone else, but a cop exemption is usually and easy sell and should be a stop gap until we can fix these laws.

Until the arrogant and selfish non cops (a cohort i belong to) can see through the perceived injustice and recognize that a current exemption should be exploited so that good guys can still have appropriate firepower, then the gun control nuts win.
Sorry bro. I'm all for Firemen and Policemen.

But enough is enough. If the police organizations are not standing up for the regular Joe's out there, fork 'em sideways. I've lost my sympathy.

If the run of the mill LEO's out there can't sway their organizations, well, let them hang with the rest of us.

If NYS won't allow any civilian to carry a 10 round magazine, I have no problem with manufacturers refusing to sell anything above a 6 round magazine to any government agency in New York.



I'm not better than you. You are not better than me. I've paid more dues than the average LEO, and been shot at with heavier ordnance than most LEO's will ever encounter. And I don't consider myself more deserving of my second amendment rights than any regular citizen.

You can begin arguing for fairness, or you can get off on the next bus stop as far as I am concerned.
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:27   #392
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Quote:
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By that logic, why carry a gun at all? As a police officer or a private citizen, your chances of being involved in a deadly force incident are something on the order of .01%. If you're 99.99% likely NOT to need your gun, ever, why carry it?



And that begs the question of what you had slung over your shoulder or strapped to your hip when you went to the area where a soldier had been wounded. Was it a handgun with a 7 round magazine? Did you carry a carbine or rifle? Did THAT weapon have a 7 round magazine?

Shot by enemy combatant is shot by enemy combatant, whether they're Al Quada, or the North Hollywood bank robbers. Bullets don't go easy on the victim because, "oh well, you're an American citizen on American soil and it's not wartime."

Once again, we DON'T need to be better armed than the populace, we need to be better armed than the best armed criminals we're protecting you from. If you don't see that, there's literally nothing I can say or do to fix your broken logic.
I need to be better armed than the best armed criminals I am protecting myself from. I am currently. I aim to stay that way.

You will not protect me from harm. You have no duty to protect me from harm..... You will document the fight that happens at my home, and if any guilty people are still alive, you might find the time to attempt to find them.

Please, don't get me wrong. I am a law abiding well mannered fellow. I have never been arrested. I've not done anything worth being arrested for. I'm one of the good guys.

But when states decide to disarm their citizens, we know what happens. Look at DC, Detroit and Chicago. If States pass restrictive gun/magazine/ammo controls, I think the LEO in that state should be the first to stand up for the proven stance that protects civilians. If they don't, fine, I am all for manufacturers holding the law enforcement and all other government agencies within that state to equal restrictions.


Don't like it, I'm cool with that. I'd be cooler if you would get up and support the rest of us. If not, rot. I'm OK with that too.


Fair is fair.
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:29   #393
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You can begin arguing for fairness, or you can get off on the next bus stop as far as I am concerned.
That's the issue. Hold your organizations responsible.




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Old 02-21-2013, 20:30   #394
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Live with the laws where you live. Don't ask for any special considerations that I don't get either...I am asking to be treated just like my neighbor that is a normal citizen.
Right on right on... We need sanity.
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:37   #395
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I'm not going to read through the last 16 pages, but my understanding is that those companies, by their own choice would not be sending/selling those restricted items, but simply one type of magazine and or equipment.

So a state like New York would only get 7 round mags for guns made by the companies. What's the big deal. With the ban the criminals will be without these tools, because that is the purpose of said ban, to get the guns out of criminals hands.

So if the criminals don't have the guns because this ban kept them from having said guns, why would anyone worry about rolling up on a bad guy with say an AR that has been made illegal for him/her to own, because how could he/she have one?

It's math to me, if LE shows up with multiple 7 round mags at their disposal, and the criminals have no guns, because the ban prevents them from doing so, then LE is NOT out gunned, in fact they are in an advantageous position against all of these criminals disarmed by the ban.

When I worked for a county sheriffs office on Cape Cod in the late 90's, as a correctional officer, I would see plenty of former inmates out and about whom I nor they shared a glowing disposition towards one another. I carried a Sig P220 as my primary concealed carry gun with three 7 round mags. I never felt outgunned. Single stack can work for police officers living in restricted states and possibly experiencing this unintended consequence initiated by their legislature, all you have to do is carry multiple mags.

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Old 02-21-2013, 20:44   #396
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Sorry bro. I'm all for Firemen and Policemen.

But enough is enough. If the police organizations are not standing up for the regular Joe's out there, fork 'em sideways. I've lost my sympathy.

If the run of the mill LEO's out there can't sway their organizations, well, let them hang with the rest of us.

If NYS won't allow any civilian to carry a 10 round magazine, I have no problem with manufacturers refusing to sell anything above a 6 round magazine to any government agency in New York.



I'm not better than you. You are not better than me. I've paid more dues than the average LEO, and been shot at with heavier ordnance than most LEO's will ever encounter. And I don't consider myself more deserving of my second amendment rights than any regular citizen.

You can begin arguing for fairness, or you can get off on the next bus stop as far as I am concerned.
Are you making an effort to not read what I'm writing?

I knew I was wasting my time..
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:48   #397
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The right answer is the government is us. We are the government. The government is accountable to us and to the laws. This is really not an issue. I applaud what gun companies are doing. This is the land of too bad from my point of view. Cops have unions. They have a voice. They can carry 6 shooters in NY and pump shotguns. Sorry, but elections and laws have consequences...
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:53   #398
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Dave I sure hope your joking. If not I hope you know that gun bans don't work, I guess I figured that was a given. LEOs aren't interested in being evenly matched, we kinda like to have the odds in our advantage. There is a world of difference from feeling outgunned and being outgunned.

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Old 02-21-2013, 20:54   #399
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I need to be better armed than the best armed criminals I am protecting myself from. I am currently. I aim to stay that way.

You will not protect me from harm. You have no duty to protect me from harm..... You will document the fight that happens at my home, and if any guilty people are still alive, you might find the time to attempt to find them.

Please, don't get me wrong. I am a law abiding well mannered fellow. I have never been arrested. I've not done anything worth being arrested for. I'm one of the good guys.

But when states decide to disarm their citizens, we know what happens. Look at DC, Detroit and Chicago. If States pass restrictive gun/magazine/ammo controls, I think the LEO in that state should be the first to stand up for the proven stance that protects civilians. If they don't, fine, I am all for manufacturers holding the law enforcement and all other government agencies within that state to equal restrictions.


Don't like it, I'm cool with that. I'd be cooler if you would get up and support the rest of us. If not, rot. I'm OK with that too.


Fair is fair.
I'll say it AGAIN for thr umpteenth time, since obviously you're not reading through any of the posts, or else your comprehension is beyond sub-par: NO ONE HERE IS SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THESE WEAPONS! NO ONE!

Firstly, you underestimate the "political power" a police officer has. We're allowed to have opinions, but they don't carry much weight. Second, you never answered the questions I posed when you'd quoted my last post. Please do so, I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

Please understand that I couldn't give a rat's ass when you own for self defense. Most cops don't. I've done as much as I'm allowed to stand up for your rights by writing letters and emails, but again, we come back to cops not really having this so-called "pull" you imagine we do. The rest is sadly upon you.

As I said in an earlier post, its absolutely these company's right to deny service to anyone for basically any reason, and it's my right to purchase the tools of my trade elsewhere, which I will do, even after this foolishness has ended. I can't abide someone who will willingly throw myself and my brethren under the bus for political gain, on either side of the issue.
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Old 02-21-2013, 20:56   #400
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I humbly submit I have over one million Concealed Carry hours. First license is from early 80's.
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