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Old 02-22-2013, 04:55   #451
Kingarthurhk
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
No, I'm pretty sure that I am hearing you loud and clear.



See, I think the time for that is gone. I think that we all hang together, or we will all certainly hang separately.

If LEO wants public support, they should support the public. I've seen WAY too many LEO standing behind Barry in support of his "Disarm Citizen" policy.

Cop Talk
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...apons-ban.html

Cop Talk
http://www.sfgate.com/politics/artic...ol-4250873.php

[IMG]http://media.philly.com/images/461*395/000fbefa-7994-46a7-833f-ecc14bf0aced.jpg[/IMG]
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/po...elongodds.html

Cop Talk
http://www.nationalmemo.com/biden-ou...t-weapons-ban/



I'm done putting my head in the sand. There are many LEO's out there that aren't fighting for my rights. I'm not going to fight for theirs any more. I'm writing as many gun, magazine and ammo suppliers as I can find emails for daily requesting that they join the LEO/Government agency sales restrictions in every state applicable.

For those that are pro- RKBA, welcome to the fight. Convince your fellow LEO and organizations to support us, and we WILL support you back.
None of those people even remotely represent me. Period.

Did the military folks that cheered for Obama and went to hug him for a photo op, represent the Military as a whole?

I could post those pictures if you like.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:17   #452
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
None of those people even remotely represent me. Period.

Did the military folks that cheered for Obama and went to hug him for a photo op, represent the Military as a whole?

I could post those pictures if you like.
Please, please do. Maybe it'll wake him up to the fact that photo ops are nothing more than political events. By his logic, I suppose the military supports Obama's agenda, and will be coming for his guns. I'd be a lot more concerned about the guys in Bradleys coming, than the folks who drive care with red and blue lights.

As has been mentioned several times here, as well. Should the Moron Lubers wet dream of dying in a fight over gun confiscation occur, it likely will not be state or local agencies conducting the operation. We don't enforce federal law. I know that's a hard concept for some to follow, but it's true. I can't arrest someone for ANY violation under USC. Which is what a federal gun ban and confiscation thereupon would fall under.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:20   #453
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What I really hope happens is this: you morons who are doing this - I hope you need the police in the worst way. A nice active shooter sounds great. And, hopefully, the police won't come save your ass, since they don't have the necessary ammunition or equipment.

You want this to get ugly? Fine. Let it be so. I'll save the ammo and magazines i have to defend myself - not others who wish I didn't have it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:22   #454
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Weather here is cold, but the storm blew through in one night and is gone. Hope it warms up soon.
We got a sheet of ice :(
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:24   #455
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I read a headline that several firearm/accessory manufacturers (Olympic arms and larue included) were supposedly refusing to sell to cops in states where politicians are passing stricter gun laws.

Is this true?

Why the hell are they punishing the cops who have nothing to do with these political games?
They aren't screwing cops, they are screwing governments that screw them/us. All of those cops are free to go buy any gun they want in their civilian capacity.

I'm usually on the police side, but I agree 100% with refusing to do business with anti-gun governments. Guess what guys, just because you're a good guy, that doesn't make the government you work for good and it's your choice to work there.

If nothing else, I think it makes an important statement in the gun control debate - if these guns aren't needed to defend our lives, why does the government need them so bad?
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:24   #456
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One more thing -


Its evident that none of you have any business sense. Gun bans are being pushed nationally. If successful, these bans will severely limit the available customers for gun, ammunition, and firearms accessory manufacturers. You're asking them to stop selling to potentially the only customers they will have left, should these bans be successful.

Great business acumen - piss off and alienate what might be your ONLY customer base.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:26   #457
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Bren,

Did you argue in front of the KY Supreme Court last Friday? There was a particular case concerning 15.520 that was heard.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:38   #458
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Bren,

Did you argue in front of the KY Supreme Court last Friday? There was a particular case concerning 15.520 that was heard.
Nope, wasn't me. The oral argument calendar says it was all private attorneys. Looks like maybe local governments represented by private firms. I'm at Ft. Jackson, SC, trying to get the Army to deploy me.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:47   #459
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As the Bard said,

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much"
I have been trying to recall a time when Law Enforcement Agencies had a hard time getting equipment not available to the common rabble. I remember when surplus full auto weapons were made available through Government channels. I know that even today I cannot go to my LGS and order the same tear gas guns and ammo that is available to proper agencies.

It strikes me as odd that individual officers should be worried that because some commercial businesses decline their business, their agencies will be unable to procure high capacity magazines for their duty weapons. Many of the agencies acquire the duty weapons from the manufacturers or their agents and in so doing acquire extra magazines for the dutyweapons. Even in agencies that require the officers to purchase their own duty weapons the agency must certainly have the ability to contact the manufacturers, and even if the officers have to pay out of pocket, acquire magazines for the duty weapons. I have never really seen much that an agency can't get in the way of duty equipment.

I would say the same thing might also apply to the authorized backup duty weapons or off duty weapons. I know that even in California officers have no trouble getting around the restrictions on magazines for their duty weapons and can even order "restricted" guns if they get the proper paperwork to show they are to be used as duty weapons.

No I can't see that That any official procurement process existing today would have any problem at all because several retail companies don't want to sell a particular item to individual officers in a given State.

No, I think there must be some other reason that so many here seem to be upset about retail restrictions on magazines for their duty weapons. I am sure there is a reason, but I can't put my finger on it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:49   #460
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The lives of government agents are not more worthy of protecting than the lives of my family so they should not have access to better tools for defense than the rest of the citizens. If some can not understand that concept than I'm not sure they ever will.
The concept is fully and completely understood. All life is equally valuable.

Some lives are put at risk more often than others, some by choice through job requirements, others by undesired, unfortunate happenstance.

In which group would you consider yourself? I would now be in the latter group. I don't go where trouble has the better chance of engaging me anymore.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:50   #461
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Nope, wasn't me. The oral argument calendar says it was all private attorneys. Looks like maybe local governments represented by private firms. I'm at Ft. Jackson, SC, trying to get the Army to deploy me.
Need more action than GT, huh???
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:03   #462
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They aren't screwing cops, they are screwing governments that screw them/us. All of those cops are free to go buy any gun they want in their civilian capacity.

I'm usually on the police side, but I agree 100% with refusing to do business with anti-gun governments. Guess what guys, just because you're a good guy, that doesn't make the government you work for good and it's your choice to work there.

If nothing else, I think it makes an important statement in the gun control debate - if these guns aren't needed to defend our lives, why does the government need them so bad?
I would alter that a bit, Bren.

If these weapons are not needed to defend our lives from evil people who are using these weapons against us, then why does my local government need these weapons to defend themselves from the evil people after the evil people used them against us? We are the real first responders to attempted crime. We have the first response to stop a crime against us.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:08   #463
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None of those people even remotely represent me. Period.

Did the military folks that cheered for Obama and went to hug him for a photo op, represent the Military as a whole?

I could post those pictures if you like.
Good point...and the answer is no.

When I served, very few who wound up in front of the camera reflected my viewpoints, especially the CINC.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:13   #464
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Without the photo ops and law enforcement groups signing on as supporters, it probably would not have gone anywhere.
You're talking about New York, right? It is hardly the state where anything close to political balance exists.

What about the law enforcement groups in other parts of the country coming out against bans and in support of the 2nd Amendment? Do you give them any credibility?
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:14   #465
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I would alter that a bit, Bren.

If these weapons are not needed to defend our lives from evil people who are using these weapons against us, then why does my local government need these weapons to defend themselves from the evil people after the evil people used them against us? We are the real first responders to attempted crime. We have the first response to stop a crime against us.
Yep, that's what I meant, as well. I'm thinking back to that fruitlook chief from CA who claimed guns are not defensive weapons, but are used for offense and intimidation.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:16   #466
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Need more action than GT, huh???
It would be nice. However, most of our people recently put on deployment missions have had the mission cancelled (budget?), so I'll believe it when I actually get there.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:40   #467
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
None of those people even remotely represent me. Period.

Did the military folks that cheered for Obama and went to hug him for a photo op, represent the Military as a whole?

I could post those pictures if you like.
I'm not a fan of them either. Unfortunately the whole problem stems from good guys being lumped in with the bad. A few nuts go on rampages, and the law abiding public gets punished. The point is, while it might irritate the heck out of NYS government agencies and personnel, it's a reality check. Might as well invite them into the pool with the rest of us. It sounds fair that all of us should have the same rules. Maybe we could all oppose a 7/10/15 round limit, and come up with a way to stop nutcases before or VERY shortly after they decide to go on a rampage and dispense with the idea that limiting citizens that follow the law is the way to go.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:46   #468
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
What I really hope happens is this: you morons who are doing this - I hope you need the police in the worst way. A nice active shooter sounds great. And, hopefully, the police won't come save your ass, since they don't have the necessary ammunition or equipment.

You want this to get ugly? Fine. Let it be so. I'll save the ammo and magazines i have to defend myself - not others who wish I didn't have it.
What a nice sentiment. All that anger just because some companies want to exercise discretion and not ship anything to a state that would be illegal for a civilian to own.

I won't wish ill on you or your family, but I will wish that your sense of fairness improves.


Doesn't it register? Those companies are just doing to the government what the government is doing to the citizens.

I want you to have your 30 round mags. Don't you want the same for me?
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:16   #469
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My God, we are in deep doodoo. If cops think they are doctors. . . . holy crap.

Please guys, think this through. No one has a constitutional right to perform surgery.

How stupid do you have to be?
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I agree with Doc. If I can't have morphine and cut people, doctors shouldn't either. If I can't sentence people to death, why can judges? Why can't I call down air strikes...total bs! Why can't I park in school bus zones? Because I don't have a bus! I want diplomatic immunity and I should be able to tour all nuclear sites. I want access to all FBI files and...and...and...
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Countrygun, my point was that there are lots of items/privileges that aren't legal for everybody but that some people need for their jobs. I'm fine with everyone having higher cap mags. Like it or not LEOs have privileges and are in situations that the average person is generally not. LEOs are just like everybody else until one gets in trouble or messes up.
You might want to read his second post explaining the first one...
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If you went through two years of community college criminal justice school, and you think you should be able to have better weapons than the people who pay your salary. . . . . . . . .You should've taken a class in US history.
[Civics Lesson] All residents, including all government employees, and others, businesses, visitors, etc., pay taxes of various types. Those taxes go into a general fund. From that fund, the law enforcement agency is funded. The agency then pays its employees. That LE employee pays the same amount of his/her salary as you do.[/Civics Lesson]
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Please tell us now: If Mayor Bloomberg orders you to bust down the door of a New Yorker who "may" own a firearm that he and Gov Quomo say HE can't have but YOU CAN!!!!!!!-- will you do it? And why should YOU be able to own that firearm, if the people you "protect" can't?
I do not believe we have any LE members from New York participating. You need to ask someone from NY.
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We all know you are not legally obligated to "protect." Your job is to clean up after the bad guy does whatever he wants. How can you guys live with that?
How would you suggest that situation be changed?
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Sorry, I just don't get it.
Again, if you were in LE, how would you change that?
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If cops can own it, the people who pay their salary should be able to own it.
As to paying someone's salary, see above.

Every law enforcement officer does not own the equipment they carry and use. If you mean that the firearms LE carries should be available to non-LE, no one I know on this forum disagrees.
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If you are the victim of a crime, you are the first responder. No one has a greater right to own any weapon than the victim of a crime.
Absolutely true.
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If a cop is reading this and thinks "I have more training, I have a background check, I have a uniform, it's my job, blah blah blah. . . ." I am telling you, you are WRONG. And you are on the wrong side.
Yes, they are wrong to believe owning and possessing a firearm for self defense requires the same scrutiny, the degree of screening and training LE candidates receive.
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And sadly, people are choosing sides now. Good luck to you all.
You seem to have, yes.
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Please explain why you as a "copper" should own magazines that are bigger than the ones owned by people who pay you?
Again, as to the salary thing, see above.

It isn't that they "should" have maximum capacity mags when non-LE citizens can't.
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Seriously, I love the cops who have supported my security. but if you are telling me you are better than me in ANY way-- better trained, a better shot, a better judge of human character- then we disagree.
What is your background? It's hard to tell with no information about you.
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You do not deserve better weapons. When you get to MY crime scene, someone will be dead. It will be me, or it will be the guy who attacked me. YOU have no right to tell me what weapon I should have had== because you will be the last person on the scene. And if you think you should be entitled to something I can't have-- well, good luck to you on the other side.
You are right, and I believe the people deciding what you can and cannot have are your elected officials. Members of law enforcement do not have the authority to make law. That power is instilled in the people you voted for.
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Ohio Copper: Just saw your sub title: "Stop Resisting."

Perfect. Now we know you.
Yeah, that defines Ohio Copper. That makes him an *******. I've told him that, too.
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there are things beyond your control. Like the orders you receive?

Which orders won't you obey? Would it be beyond your control if you were ordered to confiscate weapons from citizens, if ordered to do so? And shoot them if they refuse?

That, my friends, is the problem. And it will go to a place that is very dark.
You really need to spend some time reading posts by GT LE members here, in GNG and PI about confiscation. You are wrong.
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Dear God, THIS is the problem.

The cop won't show up til you're already dead. If there's only one bad guy coming through your door, your reduced cap mag may be enough. But you may have to have a conversation with the third guy, as you stand there with an empty gun.

LEOs and .gov men and women should have absolutely NO "privileges" above or beyond what citizens have.. Everything American screams this.
You are right.
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The cops ARE the bad guys-- insofar as they don't stand up and say these new laws are CRAP.

If you are not standing with us, you are standing against us.
Have you read about the increasing number of LE groups and agencies coming out against the new laws, the proposed national restrictions? More and more are publicly against them.
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This.

I noticed "Ohiocopper" is now discussing ice cream.

If guys who are "coppers" don't get it quick, we will all be sorry.
The switch in discussion means they have nothing nice to say. It is better to change the discussion that incur my wrath.
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Beginning 40 minutes after the Rodney King verdict, LA Police and Fire and EMT stopped responding to 911 calls.

They started responding again-- 3 FRIKKIN WEEKS LATER.

Katrina? Hugo? You name it.

As a "cop" sworn to protect== please tell me what gives you the right to tell anyone what weapon they should or should not have after your bosses tell us to "f" off?

Please, coppers everywhere, join us now. Tell your bosses and your union leaders how you really feel. It will be up to you whether this turns into 1861.
You insult them, demean them, accuse them, ridicule them and now ask them to stand by you. Nice approach. See, here's the problem. Everyone here is already on our side of the line. Open your eyes.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:25   #470
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You're talking about New York, right? It is hardly the state where anything close to political balance exists.

What about the law enforcement groups in other parts of the country coming out against bans and in support of the 2nd Amendment? Do you give them any credibility?
I'm all for those guys. I've even bragged about many of the Texas Sheriffs that have come out against proposed bans.

It doesn't make a lot of sense for companies to limit sales to states that support civilian RKBA. A carrot and stick approach is the wise course. In states where such incompetent rules exist for civilians, companies just should not ship products that do not comply to that state, without exception. Will that actually work? It depends on if any company breaks ranks and sells to them anyway, which will probably happen. But the publicity will be useful either way.

The gun banner's plan is one of divide and conquer. Companies inviting governments and their employees into the same pool gets attention.

Granted, in Texas, state laws like that aren't very likely in the foreseeable future.

If we (law enforcement and citizens) take an US vs THEM approach, it weakens us all.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:25   #471
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Apparently you don't follow my posts on GT concerning guns, or LE support of the same. Do a search.


The problem I have is simple - you are correct when you refer to LE as "government". We are employed by our respective government agencies. Yet, your little pictures above lump EVERYONE who wears a badge into the same group: anti-gunners.

Let's do a little math. My agency employs around 400-425 sworn officers at any given time. Shift requirements for the entire agency, upper command excluded, run around 60-70 people. I don't have exact numbers, because I don't know minimum requirements for each area, but that's a decent guess.

The pics you highlighted above don't even have that many officers combined. And yet, you want to throw those photos out as being representative of the entire combined strength of every local, state, and federal law enforcement officer around the country.

If photos are representative of the entire group, I'm pretty confident I can find ONE picture of the military at an Obama photo op, with MORE uniformed service members in it than the entire combined group of pics with LE at gun control events for Obama. Wanna try it?

As far as wishing others harm - here's the deal. This hits home, and in a very personal way. I am an officer, my wife is an officer, my best friend is an officer, and several other people I am close to are officers. We represent several different agencies around the state, as well.

When you make calls to limit the tools WE need to protect ourselves - it's very personal. I want my wife to have what she needs to come home at the end of her shift. YOU (yes, YOU personally) are making request to limit her choices, thereby creating the possibility that she may incur greater danger and not survive the encounter. That's personal to me - so yeah, I wish harm on those who would harm me and mine.

As to what I, and thousands of other LEO's believe - we support your gun right. We vote that way, deal with honest folk on the street that way, and walk the walk. Yet, you hold us responsible for the decisions of the legislative branch. A section of government we don't even work for (unless it's a rare agency, liks the USSC police). By and large, most of us work for the executive branch of our government. And yes, it's populated by stupid people who call for stupid things to be done. We don't agree with that crap, either.

You are either unaware (and, given your normal posting history, I'll chalk this idiocy of yours up to that) or choose to ignore all the posts in GT supporting gun rights. Many of our members live in states where guns are under attack. Yet, the officers still support gun rights - vocally. And you still choose to engage in a campaign that is detrimental to those of us grunts who don't share the beliefs of our admins.

You are currently in the military, correct? Does Obama represent YOU? He IS your CINC, after all, and he is calling for gun control. I suppose that means the military supports gun control, since the head of the military is calling for it. What about all the retardedness that JCS and other types routinely spout off about? Do they represent you, and others like you?

I saw a guy with 101st stickers all over his truck last election - he also had Obama stickers plastering it. Along with his military license plate, am I to assume he represents all military folks? And again, what about all those uniformed soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen I've seen at rallies for Obama? Do they represent YOU and YOUR opinions? Maybe the military should step up, and say they don't support their CINC's opinions. While I know the UCMJ prohibits some behaviors like that, shouldn't your principles come first?

Oh wait. Can't have people getting in trouble for voicing their opinions while in uniform. We expect it from LE, but not from servicemen, right?
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:31   #472
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What I really hope happens is this: you morons who are doing this - I hope you need the police in the worst way. A nice active shooter sounds great. And, hopefully, the police won't come save your ass, since they don't have the necessary ammunition or equipment.

You want this to get ugly? Fine. Let it be so. I'll save the ammo and magazines i have to defend myself - not others who wish I didn't have it.


You know, when I've needed the police off duty, it usually takes them awhile to get there. The best way to stop an active shooter is a good guy (not necessarily a cop) with a gun. Remind me not to go to KY.

I'll repeat it again: I am a citizen first and a cop second and it's been that way for 21 years. It's gonna get ugly, I hope everyone prepares and is ready. Maybe another Katrina or something where those sworn to protect will confiscate arms from people?
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:37   #473
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You know, when I've needed the police off duty, it usually takes them awhile to get there. The best way to stop an active shooter is a good guy (not necessarily a cop) with a gun. Remind me not to go to KY.

I'll repeat it again: I am a citizen first and a cop second and it's been that way for 21 years. It's gonna get ugly, I hope everyone prepares and is ready. Maybe another Katrina or something where those sworn to protect will confiscate arms from people?
You know better than that. Besides, it's against the law to confiscate guns here in Kentucky. We passed that immediately after Katrina.

My point is simple - these boycott requests are targeting the wrong people. The average line officer is the one feeling the pain, NOT the politician(s) that passed the laws.

If these boycotts grow legs, and someone dies - a brother or sister cop who likely did NOT want gun control in the first place - are you gonna feel better? Will that help your solidarity with the civilians?

Use your head, man. I, and many like me around the country, do NOT want more gun control. Yet, WE are the ones targeted by these boycotts. No one is rallying to hold the politicians responsible - just the guys getting screwed from both sides.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:48   #474
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Neat. I have operated with a 200k bounty on my head from Mexican Cartels. Been shot at by the Mexican Military, and had death threats for serving warrants of drug houses.

My life wasn't a movie script either.

But, it was a reality. It is a reality for lots of LEO's, consistantly, not just when America has yet another undeclared war.
Now don't throw around the "W" word (war) unless you're handing out adult diapers for the liberals in the room.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:57   #475
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It would be nice. However, most of our people recently put on deployment missions have had the mission cancelled (budget?), so I'll believe it when I actually get there.
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