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Old 02-21-2013, 11:05   #341
merlynusn
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Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
merlynusn, a Guardsman or Reservist is a civilian until they are on orders. The difference between a civilian and a military member is not just the aspect of being sent off to other nations to fight in war, it is about the contract and the commitment that separates the military from other civilians. Military members surrender many of their rights that civilians enjoy daily such as protection under the 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendments. Civilian police officers do not surrender these rights. Military members cannot quit, are subject to being moved all across the world and deploy at a moments notice. They make sacrifices that no civilian ever has to make or could understand. When the police can get deployed to war, loose their individual rights and share in all of the other sacrifices that the military does, then I will gladly change my tune, but until then, like every other non-military person, they are civilians.
So does a Guardsman or Reservist not carry a Geneva Convention ID card? Are they not in the military? Would they consider themselves in the military or a civilian? And by your definition of combatant, you aren't one if you are based in the US. You also aren't technically a combatant until you're in war.

Does a military member suspend his 4th amendment right off post? Does a military member suspend his 2nd amendment off post?

My 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights are suspended the same as you, if not moreso. I have no 4th amendment right in my workplace. I do have a 4th amendment right in my home and my personal car, just like you. I am not allowed to carry just any gun off duty. I have restrictions placed on me that determine what I can carry. You can carry whatever you want, you just can't take them on post. Guess what, neither can I. And our 1st amendment rights to speak out against our employer, politicians, etc are about the same.

Don't think that because you are in the military you are better than anyone else. I respect those that continue to serve. I left after 5.5 years because I knew I didn't want to do it as a career anymore. That and I got tired of being deployed all the time.

Do you honestly think that commitment separates military from police? Seriously? The vast majority of cops are cops because they want to be. They feel a calling, just like those in the military. And if by commitment you mean your contract, that's crap.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:10   #342
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Aside from being grammatically a mess, your diatribe does not answer the question.

Why punish the cops who do not make the idiotic laws?
It does answer the question. Use that intelligence you're trying to flaunt, and maybe re-read his response.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:32   #343
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It does answer the question. Use that intelligence you're trying to flaunt, and maybe re-read his response.
Or...............he could write it so it makes sense, and then people might have a clue just exactly what the hell he's trying to say.

Just a suggestion.....
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:55   #344
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I wasn't aware the question was posed to me. It appeared to be a rambling rhetorical comment, rather than a specific question.
In response to your position... flawed and hypocritical as it is.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:02   #345
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Not true, and not the same argument.

If laws were being passed that restricted gas tank size, horsepower, and "speed" features like ground effect kits, spoilers, or "performance" tires, then yes... it'd be the same argument and yes, we'd all be up in arms (hah!) over the restrictions and supporting car manufacturers that boycott state agencies in turn.

As it stands, cops can already use guns in more ways than non-LEO for their job. Everyone understands that, and encourages that. I definitely want a cop to be able to draw down on a fleeing suspect to protect his/her own life while subdoing someone. I also do NOT want non-LEO to be able to legally point a gun at me because I drove away from them in a parking lot.

You're arguing use of tools, we're arguing features and capabilities of tools.
Your car has blue lights and sirens too?

Same arguement.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:15   #346
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You know so little. I have worked with LEO for 20 years. I have seen the good ones and the bad ones. I've seen them lie to get a conviction I have seen them tell the truth regardless of the consequences. I have had senior officers voice concerns to me that many of the younger officers in their departments are looking to deploy their weapons so as to notch their gun belt. I have seen shootings in my state that are not justified but swept under the rug.
I don't know what LEO you have "worked with", but I have worked as LEO for 10 yrs and not ever seen the pervasive attitude and BS that you are describing. Maybe I just live in Mayberry, but there are plenty of guys on this board that work in larger agencies who I'm sure would confirm your observations... if they were true.

Quote:
As for MG really, you need a Ma Deuce or a SAW -- oh you mean an actual assault rifle one with select-fire capacity. Does LEO need real assault rifles? Maybe maybe not. But why shouldn't I be able to buy a 416 if I won't instead of having to spend 20k to get a 30 year old M16? You have an attitude that clearly shows you think LEO need more and our better than other American citizens. You are pathetic and represent what is worst in American law enforcement. The demand to militarize our LEO and the attitude that attaches to it makes me very leery of LEO until I personally get to know them.
Did you even pretend to read what I wrote?? What part of "We have HK 416's in our dept, do you think every Joe American should be able to have one of those too?? Yeah, guess what so do I, in fact first thing I said when I shot one was that everyone ought to take one home from the hospital at birth"! makes you think I put myself above anyone else or that I would militarize LE over private citizens?? Maybe if you read it again... or again... Personally I think the NFA regulations are as lame as what's on the table right now. I have no fear of law abiding citizens being armed and would have no problem with my neighbors having a SAW or a 416 or anything else (I already have a neighbor who has a Ma Deuce). If you got something different from what I wrote please explain. As for me being pathetic and representing the worst in law enforcement?? Based on what?? The fact that I expressed support of the constitution and 2A for citizens??

Quote:
As for getting involved? I have been heavily involved as an elected precinct chair vice chair, state delegate and county central committee member for the last 8 years. I have spent countless hours meeting with state legislators on a variety of issues for the last several years as well. Yea, I'm involved, I know LEO and your arguments are weak and pathetic. And YOU worry me and I sure hope you don't work in my state or that I ever meet you in my travels in YOUR state. Simply put, with and attitude like yours I don't trust you.
Good for you, I'm glad you're involved and fighting to protect the rights of your community. I'd like to know exactly which parts of my comments make you think:
Quote:
"You have an attitude that clearly shows you think LEO need more and our better than other American citizens. You are pathetic and represent what is worst in American law enforcement."
or:
Quote:
And YOU worry me and I sure hope you don't work in my state or that I ever meet you in my travels in YOUR state. Simply put, with and attitude like yours I don't trust you.
Again, I don't know what LE you have "worked with" but the TV cops you apparently know are not even anywhere close to representative of the guys I have worked side by side with.
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Old 02-21-2013, 13:32   #347
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Aside from being grammatically a mess, your diatribe does not answer the question.

Why punish the cops who do not make the idiotic laws?
The cops are NOT being punished! The companies are simply holding the cops to the same laws that they enforce.

Dig?
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Old 02-21-2013, 13:53   #348
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Has anyone said "Barrett" yet?

There is a law of unintended consequences that seems to jump up and bite politicians on a regular basis. What tools.

I support those companies that tell them to go pound sand. Ahhh, FREEDOM!
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:09   #349
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The cops are NOT being punished! The companies are simply holding the cops to the same laws that they enforce.

Dig?
When **** is going really bad at your house, and you need the cops to come in a hurry and fix things, companies are now creating a risk that these cops will be under gunned to mitigate the worst day of your life. These companies are opting to cease these sales regardless of whether or not LE exemptions exist.

Dig?
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They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:10   #350
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Has anyone said "Barrett" yet?

There is a law of unintended consequences that seems to jump up and bite politicians on a regular basis. What tools.

I support those companies that tell them to go pound sand. Ahhh, FREEDOM!
I know right, **** those politicians, they're definitely the ones that'll be killed due to boots on the street being under gunned.. Oh wait, no it'll be the boots on the street.

Your logic is flawless.
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They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.
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I humbly submit I have over one million Concealed Carry hours. First license is from early 80's.
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:13   #351
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On one hand the police need the high power assault rifles....it takes a boatload of firepower to stop two Asian newspaper chuckers in a pick-up truck.

Coffee out of my nose.....
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:14   #352
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
When **** is going really bad at your house, and you need the cops to come in a hurry and fix things, legislators are now creating a risk that these cops will be under gunned to mitigate the worst day of your life. These legislators are opting to cease these sales regardless of whether or not LE exemptions exist.

Dig?
Fixed it for you to put the blame where it properly belongs.
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:19   #353
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Fixed it for you to put the blame where it properly belongs.
Legislators created this problem, there's no question about it. These companies are throwing gasoline on the fire and cops under the bus and are an equal party in terms of blame for a detestable political game that puts people at risk (cops and non-cops alike) to perpetuate their respective political agendas.

There are other ways to fight this, putting innocent people into harms way is just pathetic, and whether or not you care to admit it, these companies are now active participants in that.

But hey, at the end of the day, CEOs and legislators alike will keep making tons of money, so who cares if a cop or two gets killed right? To paraphrase many in this thread, it's essentially just "collateral damage".
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Quote:
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They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.
Quote:
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I humbly submit I have over one million Concealed Carry hours. First license is from early 80's.
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:23   #354
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
When **** is going really bad at your house, and you need the cops to come in a hurry and fix things, companies are now creating a risk that these cops will be under gunned to mitigate the worst day of your life. These companies are opting to cease these sales regardless of whether or not LE exemptions exist.

Dig?
By the time police arrive to a violent crime, it's typically too late (not there fault) just not enough police to cover many cities and rural areas. That is why we shouldn't be limited to 7 round mags and not be able to own other weapons that we could use god forbid we are in a violent situation.
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Old 02-21-2013, 14:29   #355
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By the time police arrive to a violent crime, it's typically too late (not there fault) just not enough police to cover many cities and rural areas. That is why we shouldn't be limited to 7 round mags and not be able to own other weapons that we could use god forbid we are in a violent situation.
Oh FFS no one here is saying they support these absurd magazine capacity limits, assault weapons bans, or anything of the sort.

The question at hand is, Does NOBODY get access to assault rifles and "high capacity magazines" or should we at least allow SOME good guys (i.e. police officers) to get access to them while we work as adults to repeal these ridiculous laws. At least this way the bad guys have SOME opposition.

I guess what I'm reading from the selfish, short-sighted masses who are posting here is that "no, screw the cops, if I can't have it neither can they". So we're left with a system where ONLY THE BAD-GUYS have access to these weapons while we work like children against each other to repeal these ridiculous gun laws.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer
They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed
I humbly submit I have over one million Concealed Carry hours. First license is from early 80's.

Last edited by FiremanMike; 02-21-2013 at 14:30..
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Old 02-21-2013, 15:53   #356
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
Oh FFS no one here is saying they support these absurd magazine capacity limits, assault weapons bans, or anything of the sort.

The question at hand is, Does NOBODY get access to assault rifles and "high capacity magazines" or should we at least allow SOME good guys (i.e. police officers) to get access to them while we work as adults to repeal these ridiculous laws. At least this way the bad guys have SOME opposition.

I guess what I'm reading from the selfish, short-sighted masses who are posting here is that "no, screw the cops, if I can't have it neither can they". So we're left with a system where ONLY THE BAD-GUYS have access to these weapons while we work like children against each other to repeal these ridiculous gun laws.
I hear you but unfortunately those who would write and pass such laws believe that what they are doing will keep the bad guys from having access to such firearms and magazines so they are not going to get that point.
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Old 02-21-2013, 16:05   #357
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I can see the logic here. In New York, the wonderfully intelligent legislators forgot to include an exemption for present and RETIRED police officers. Now, I can't go around shooting tanks, machine guns and AT4's now that I'm retired from the Army, and the civilian rules apply to me now too. I think that should be the same for retired law enforcement. The "Some animals are more equal than others" rules need to go.

Where the logic comes in is when the law enforcement community found out that they would have to suffer the same restrictions as the poor peasants, they rebelled, and the got legislators attention fast. Ding, there's an idea.

So, since they have pull, and many big city police organizations support gun/magazine/ammo control, they should get some too. I personally support magazine manufacturers not selling to any government employee or entity in a state with magazine restrictions, any magazine that does not comply. I support firearms manufacturers not selling to any government employee or entity in a state with an assault weapons ban, any weapon that might be considered an assault weapon in that state. I support ammunition manufacturers not selling to any government employee or entity within a state any ammunition (JHP, Other expanding etc.) that is not legally ownable by the citizens in that state.

Those manufacturers should cancel all current orders for any government employee or entity within those states and offer the civilians one of three options.

1. Complete the order with shipping to an alternate out of state address.
2. Cancel the order at no charge.
3. Hold the order for 6 months upon request of the customer while they relocate their home to a 2nd Amendment Friendly state.



Honestly, if all I need is Joe Biden's double barrel shotgun, then that's all the police need too.

If the police and other government employees and entities believe this is unbearable, maybe they will get off their backsides and start lobbying for the regular citizens too. If not, there are plenty of double barrel shotguns still available on gunbroker.com.


For full disclosure, I am a government employee. Of course I live in Texas......

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Old 02-21-2013, 16:14   #358
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But hey, at the end of the day, CEOs and legislators alike will keep making tons of money, so who cares if a cop or two gets killed right?
I don't see how giving up a significant portion of a companies sales allows the company to "keep making tons of money". We all care, we don't want to see more innocent people killed...and we know that these laws are going to do just that. And it's not like departments will be unable to get what they need, not every AR manufacturer has taken such a stand (...yet?). Compound that with the shrinking budgets the politicians are allocating to the departments and you have a surplus of hardware to spread among the reduced number of officers. Bottom line is there are a lot of ways for the LEOs to still get what they need. By doing what these companies are doing, they are giving the departments a big hammer to beat the politicians over the head with (so you could say they have increased the LEOs arsenal of tools).

I personally think Ronnie Barrett hit the nail on the head here:
Quote:
Elected state officials of New York, having been sworn to protect our Constitution, have instead committed an offense against it and their citizens by stripping inalienable rights duly protected and guaranteed under the Second Amendment. By their deliberate and sinister actions, these officials now cause their state and local policing agencies to enforce these unconstitutional and illegal so called “laws”.

By current law, Barrett cannot be an accomplice with any lawbreaker, therefore, cannot and will not service or sell to New York government agencies. Barrett also applies this stance to the individual elected official who, as a matter of public record, has voted for or created regulation that violates the constitutional rights of their citizens. This is an expansion of our 2002 ban against the California government due to their second amendment infringements, and shall apply to any future violators.
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Old 02-21-2013, 16:25   #359
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
When **** is going really bad at your house, and you need the cops to come in a hurry and fix things, companies are now creating a risk that these cops will be under gunned to mitigate the worst day of your life. These companies are opting to cease these sales regardless of whether or not LE exemptions exist.

Dig?
If things are going bad enough at my place that the police need to respond with AR-15's, they will be arriving after the fight is over. 911 is what you dial when it is safe to do so.

Things would be much better handled if I had what I have now. I don't own an AR-15, the bullets those things shoot are dinky, and not good for feral hogs. AR-10's turn cover into concealment.


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Old 02-21-2013, 16:26   #360
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Some folks have a hard time remembering how, during the "Assault Weapons Ban era" "The police" came to the defense of the rights of citizens to have the same high capacity magazines that they, the cops had, marked "LE only"

Perhaps someone could reassure the non-leo's here by showing the efforts of the Law Enforcement agencies to restore the right to the common citizens.

I am sure once the non-cops see that law enforcement officers were campaigning against that ban and how they played such great part in allowing it to "sunset" the fears of the Citizens/Civilians/Non-LEOs will be put to rest. They just need to be shown that it doesn't have to "hurt" LEOs individually before they stand up for the rights of other gun owners.

Should be easy to look up the evidence from the AWB era to reassure the crowd.

Last edited by countrygun; 02-21-2013 at 17:23..
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