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Old 02-21-2013, 01:38   #321
CW Mock
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Jeeze, this is still going?


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Old 02-21-2013, 01:40   #322
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:53   #323
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I like ice cream.

HAVE YOU SEEN MY BASEBALL?
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:18   #324
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You holding your breath?
Well.... I guess not anymore.


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Old 02-21-2013, 04:32   #325
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Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause.....
That's probably because the legal standard to detain someone (i.e. "pull them over") is Reasonable Suspicion, not Probable Cause.

PC is needed to search and arrest (make a 4th Amendment seizure), not stop...

There's an old saying... "You have to know it to hate." That means you have to understand something to truly be able to make a decision about it.

You are making decisions (and comments) on something you know nothing about.

Please stop.




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Old 02-21-2013, 06:34   #326
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
I read a headline that several firearm/accessory manufacturers (Olympic arms and larue included) were supposedly refusing to sell to cops in states where politicians are passing stricter gun laws.

Is this true?

Why the hell are they punishing the cops who have nothing to do with these political games?
It is a free country. Companies can sell to whoever they damn well please.

Arbitrariness (cops get this, everyone else gets that) in the prescription of law is worth making an example of--especially in the case of something as important as Constitutional rights.

And I have to add...the root cause is the political games, not the attitiude of the weapons manufacturers.

Play stupid games with people's rights, win stupid prizes.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:19   #327
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I do know and I don't care. LEO don't need any different tools for self-defense than I or my family need. If 7 or 15 is good enough for me it sure is for them. The point is that LEO are not special, different, or a protected class. They are American Citizens just like me. If they don't like it then perhaps they should get involved in the political process and get the law changed for ALL law abiding Americans.
Well Said! I agree 100%.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:50   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
If they don't like it then perhaps they should get involved in the political process and get the law changed for ALL law abiding Americans.
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Originally Posted by larry starling View Post
Well Said! I agree 100%.
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Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
But we do need to ban together and crush criminals who use guns. If enough good citizens carried guns the cops jobs would be a lot easier.
First, BB61, who is telling you that rank and file members of LE are not active and working to change the laws?

shadowhunter, that portion of your post is spot on. Crushing crime should be the most important focus for everyone.

larry, I hope I quoted the part of BB61's post you are agreeing with.

This pretty much sums it up...
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Originally Posted by Will Beararms View Post
Agreed: Law-abiding pro-gun Non-LEO's need to work with Law-abiding pro-gun LEO's to protect our Second Amendment.
And then this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GumbyDammit View Post
Quit acting like there is some imaginary chip on every cops shoulder that you need to knock off. It's bull****. I've sent no fewer than 25 letters to legislators of my own state and others where I vacation or have interests. Why would I do that??? Certainly not because I put myself above anyone else and think I'm part of some special class.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:10   #329
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
It isn't just the police chiefs. The police unions that endorse these measures eclipse those that oppose them. And sadly, there is a significant proportion of rank-and-file that feel that people who don't wear a badge shouldn't have guns (or at least modern pistols and sporting rifles). While this is not so much the case in rural areas, it is definitely a common theme among urban cops.
I am assuming that the significant proportion of the rank-and-file you speak of is in your home state and possibly around LA? Because I have not seen it at all around me, not even from the administrators.

Oh wait, I am an administrator....
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:29   #330
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
I am assuming that the significant proportion of the rank-and-file you speak of is in your home state and possibly around LA? Because I have not seen it at all around me, not even from the administrators.

Oh wait, I am an administrator....
And this is why Texas is on my short list of places to move.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:31   #331
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
[/I][/B]


I think I found his question?
I wasn't aware the question was posed to me. It appeared to be a rambling rhetorical comment, rather than a specific question.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:39   #332
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Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause. Some LEO's, state, and local governments think they are on a level above citizens, they are not. LEO's work for the citizens. In a perfect world none of these problems would exist, but this isn't a perfect world. I understand the reservations of certain companies to sell in certain states, sort of a quiet revolt. LEO's dont need more powerful guns than citizens, we are both on the same side. But we do need to ban together and crush criminals who use guns. If enough good citizens carried guns the cops jobs would be a lot easier. Instead most citizens carrying legal guns, if pulled over in a traffic stop are treated more like criminals than citizens.
This one time, at band camp.................

Last edited by Southswede; 02-21-2013 at 08:40..
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:16   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause.
Who outnumbers whom? Are there more cops you respect, or those who believe probable cause is an illusion?

About that, what do they mean by "an illusion"? Are those their words or your interpretation?

You are an engineer. What work do you do that puts you around lots of LEOs, that puts you in a position where they are comfortable telling you, well, sounds like they brag to you, about pulling people over without probable cause?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
Some LEO's, state, and local governments think they are on a level above citizens, they are not. LEO's work for the citizens.
Individual LE officers, they are employed by the department or agency. The department is part of the executive branch of the government, regardless of the level. Citizens not in their chain of command have no authority over them.
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Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
In a perfect world none of these problems would exist, but this isn't a perfect world.
True
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Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
I understand the reservations of certain companies to sell in certain states, sort of a quiet revolt.
Yes
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Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
LEO's dont need more powerful guns than citizens, we are both on the same side.
Yeah, you're right, sort of.

LE needs weapons more powerful than the ones non-law abiding citizens possess.

Law abiding citizens need weapons more powerful than the ones non-law abiding citizens possess.

Non-law abiding citizens do not need...well, you get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowhunter View Post
Instead most citizens carrying legal guns, if pulled over in a traffic stop are treated more like criminals than citizens.
How about providing your source documenting/substantiating your "most citizens carrying legal guns, if pulled over in a traffic stop are treated more like criminals than citizens." Most?
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:59   #334
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Salute to the companies standing up!

I salute every company who is supporting the second amendment! Local enforcement don't even support the laws because they know it's wrong. Mr. Cuomo needs to wake up and realize that his laws are nonsense and were passed illegally. So if it takes companies limiting law enforcement to 7 round mags like a private citizen, then I'm all for it. Yes, you heard right, 7 rounds. After April 15, we cannot buy a handgun or mag that is over 7 rounds. basically bans almost every handgun except some compact models and revolvers. When police are off duty or retire they keep there 15 round mags. It's not ok for Cuomo's private "army" to be heavily armed yet the citizens stripped of the means to protect themselves. TO THE GUY WHO STARTED THE THREAD ,if these laws stick here in NY, they will be contagious and other states will try the same nonsense.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:08   #335
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Originally Posted by GumbyDammit View Post
We have HK 416's in our dept, do you think every Joe American should be able to have one of those too?? Yeah, guess what so do I, in fact first thing I said when I shot one was that everyone ought to take one home from the hospital at birth!

Quit acting like there is some imaginary chip on every cops shoulder that you need to knock off. It's bull****. I've sent no fewer than 25 letters to legislators of my own state and others where I vacation or have interests. Why would I do that??? Certainly not because I put myself above anyone else and think I'm part of some special class.

My job may entail things YOU consider special privileges (like shooting MG's or running code through red lights) but I consider them responsibilities, ones that come with significant personal risk and liability.

In the end I don't expect any preferential treatment or privilege. I support the constitution and founding principals of this country and speak up to defend them. So do the cops I work with and many others, to an extent you will never know. How many letters have you written or rallies have you attended, especially knowing that speaking out might put your job at risk if the wrong political hack gets offended??

Your imaginary line between us & our communities is in your head and only shows your own personal bias and lack of understanding of the men & women in law enforcement and why we do what we do.


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You know so little. I have worked with LEO for 20 years. I have seen the good ones and the bad ones. I've seen them lie to get a conviction I have seen them tell the truth regardless of the consequences. I have had senior officers voice concerns to me that many of the younger officers in their departments are looking to deploy their weapons so as to notch their gun belt. I have seen shootings in my state that are not justified but swept under the rug. As for MG really, you need a Ma Deuce or a SAW -- oh you mean an actual assault rifle one with select-fire capacity. Does LEO need real assault rifles? Maybe maybe not. But why shouldn't I be able to buy a 416 if I won't instead of having to spend 20k to get a 30 year old M16? You have an attitude that clearly shows you think LEO need more and our better than other American citizens. You are pathetic and represent what is worst in American law enforcement. The demand to militarize our LEO and the attitude that attaches to it makes me very leery of LEO until I personally get to know them. As for getting involved? I have been heavily involved as an elected precinct chair vice chair, state delegate and county central committee member for the last 8 years. I have spent countless hours meeting with state legislators on a variety of issues for the last several years as well. Yea, I'm involved, I know LEO and your arguments are weak and pathetic. And YOU worry me and I sure hope you don't work in my state or that I ever meet you in my travels in YOUR state. Simply put, with and attitude like yours I don't trust you.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:13   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
First, BB61, who is telling you that rank and file members of LE are not active and working to change the laws?


This pretty much sums it up...And then this...
Good question. I can only speak from experience as a precinct chair for the Republican Party in my neck of the woods. I do know that LEO exist in my precinct but I have never seen them out to participate in party caucuses. I wish they would. I wish the members of the UT National Guard that live in my neighborhood would also come out to vote. They may not be able to run for an office because of the Hatch act, but they clearly can appear, support candidates, speak their peace and be involved. Of course, I wish more people would get involved too so singling out just LEO would not be fair in the general context or in this specific topic too -- in retrospect.

I would also point out that a democrat LEO, in the rank and file, is fairly rare in Utah.

Last edited by BB61; 02-21-2013 at 10:15..
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:20   #337
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I do know that LEO exist in my precinct but I have never seen them out to participate in party caucuses. I wish they would.
Have you spoken to them and asked why they do not?
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:22   #338
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Yes. Every bystander on the street was hit by shots fired by the NYPD officers. All nine victims.

Justifying nine wounded bystanders as collateral damage due to "You have ricochet, you have background, you have people who panic and run right between the officers and the shooter. What more can you do?"...well, it's clear where you stand.
Some were struck by pieces of concrete, not bullets. I'd love to know... what would you have done in the situation? Crowded street, you KNOW that this guy just shot and killed one person, and decides to turn towards you. Keep in mind, that you now have had months to figure out your course of action, plus whatever time it takes you to reply to this.

Quote:
I live in the same world as you. Except I don't have a badge and ability to carry a gun 24/7.
Nor the responsibility that comes with either of those items.


Quote:
It's a real shame that they're limited from doing more about those LEO exemptions from which they benefit. Convenient, yet a shame.
Convenient how? Again, we do not set policy. We're just required to follow it. You seem to think that as cops we get more rights than the average citizen. In fact, my rights get more limited until I retire. Freedom of speech? Hardly. Right to bear arms? Only what the department tells me I can carry and when. Freedom from searches and seizures? They can demand a drug test from me at any time, or to search my locker, including personal property at any time. No warrant needed! Want me to continue? Not to mention, that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is out the window. I have to prove I'm innocent in department hearings/investigations. Does your job modify of fire you if you get arrested?

Quote:
Sure. I'll just kiss my step-kids goodbye. It'll suck choosing between breaking my wife's heart by dragging her away from her children or losing her when she stays with her children, but either way, their father is not going to allow me to take his kids out of the state because I want to better exercise my gun rights (and in California, he'll probably win legally).
Just like those of us who work as cops or stuck behind the iron curtain. Not as easy as some here make it out to be.

Quote:
It isn't just the police chiefs. The police unions that endorse these measures eclipse those that oppose them. And sadly, there is a significant proportion of rank-and-file that feel that people who don't wear a badge shouldn't have guns (or at least modern pistols and sporting rifles). While this is not so much the case in rural areas, it is definitely a common theme among urban cops.
And for the third time. Which Police unions have backed these measures? I'm absolutely positive that more unions are quietly working against it than yelling for it. I can't deny that more NYPD guys think that people shouldn't own guns. But they don't think that because they're cops. They think that because the majority of them grew up in the city (or some foreign country, but I digress), where guns and gun ownership isn't as common. Thats a cultural issue with living there.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:25   #339
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Good question. I can only speak from experience as a precinct chair for the Republican Party in my neck of the woods. I do know that LEO exist in my precinct but I have never seen them out to participate in party caucuses. I wish they would. I wish the members of the UT National Guard that live in my neighborhood would also come out to vote. They may not be able to run for an office because of the Hatch act, but they clearly can appear, support candidates, speak their peace and be involved. Of course, I wish more people would get involved too so singling out just LEO would not be fair in the general context or in this specific topic too -- in retrospect.

I would also point out that a democrat LEO, in the rank and file, is fairly rare in Utah.
I am, by written policy, NOT allowed to campaign or participate in political events. I'll gladly find the actual wording in the procedure manual if you so desire. Democrat LEO's are rare in general. Out of a 150 sworn dept, I know of 3 that I work with.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:46   #340
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Originally Posted by GumbyDammit View Post
We have HK 416's in our dept, do you think every Joe American should be able to have one of those too?? Yeah, guess what so do I, in fact first thing I said when I shot one was that everyone ought to take one home from the hospital at birth!

Quit acting like there is some imaginary chip on every cops shoulder that you need to knock off. It's bull****. I've sent no fewer than 25 letters to legislators of my own state and others where I vacation or have interests. Why would I do that??? Certainly not because I put myself above anyone else and think I'm part of some special class.

My job may entail things YOU consider special privileges (like shooting MG's or running code through red lights) but I consider them responsibilities, ones that come with significant personal risk and liability.

In the end I don't expect any preferential treatment or privilege. I support the constitution and founding principals of this country and speak up to defend them. So do the cops I work with and many others, to an extent you will never know. How many letters have you written or rallies have you attended, especially knowing that speaking out might put your job at risk if the wrong political hack gets offended??

Your imaginary line between us & our communities is in your head and only shows your own personal bias and lack of understanding of the men & women in law enforcement and why we do what we do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
You know so little. I have worked with LEO for 20 years.
In what capacity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
I have seen the good ones and the bad ones. I've seen them lie to get a conviction I have seen them tell the truth regardless of the consequences. I have had senior officers voice concerns to me that many of the younger officers in their departments are looking to deploy their weapons so as to notch their gun belt. I have seen shootings in my state that are not justified but swept under the rug.
Again, in what capacity do you function that allows you access to all that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
As for MG really, you need a Ma Deuce or a SAW -- oh you mean an actual assault rifle one with select-fire capacity. Does LEO need real assault rifles? Maybe maybe not. But why shouldn't I be able to buy a 416 if I won't instead of having to spend 20k to get a 30 year old M16?
The laws about ownership of fully automatic weapons were made at levels far above the pay scale of local law enforcement. The beef is not with local cops.

Many departments have availed themselves of the free M-16s from Uncle Sugar. Some, maybe many departments have converted them to semi-auto. Locals where I live did.
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Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
You have an attitude that clearly shows you think LEO need more and our better than other American citizens.
Help me out here, please. Which of his comments said that? Please, be specific.
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Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
You are pathetic and represent what is worst in American law enforcement.
Wow...
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Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
The demand to militarize our LEO and the attitude that attaches to it makes me very leery of LEO until I personally get to know them.
May I suggest you apply that philosophy here on GT. Take time and read all the posts you can by a member before condemning them based on one post.
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Originally Posted by BB61 View Post
As for getting involved? I have been heavily involved as an elected precinct chair vice chair, state delegate and county central committee member for the last 8 years. I have spent countless hours meeting with state legislators on a variety of issues for the last several years as well.
Good, thank you...
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Yea, I'm involved, I know LEO and your arguments are weak and pathetic. And YOU worry me and I sure hope you don't work in my state or that I ever meet you in my travels in YOUR state. Simply put, with and attitude like yours I don't trust you.
Like I said, apply your philosophy of getting to know someone. Search for all threads started by GumbyDammit. Look at his posts in other threads. Then, if you still believe what you've posted, fine.
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