[Roering]

Originally Posted by Gryff

That's because New York cops (at least NYPD) is a bigger threat to citizens than psychotic shooters.

(I assume you're kidding so I'll respond in kind.)

I blame the heavy trigger pull they have to put up with.

[Ohio Copper]

Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me

yes you are because you are not being truthfull, does the CCW holder deserve to carry a gun while other citizens cannot, if you truly cared you would also demand that CCW holders not be allowed this preferntial treatment, and that they be treated like everyone else..Oh wait no thats not what you meant..

Does the CCW holder in my state deserve not to pay for a records check when buying a firearm, yet I have to pay everytime? Even though I am checked every year by my agency. Ohh the humanity and the elevated class of preferential treatment....

I think I found his question?

[bug]

Originally Posted by Gryff

That's because New York cops (at least NYPD) is a bigger threat to citizens than psychotic shooters.

That is a child like response to a real discussion.

I work in a gun shop part time and I am at best a mediocre shooter.
I am willing to bet if most on this board, were thrust into that incident they would do no better or worse.

I see guys all the time who think they are awesome shooters, but thee truth is they blow.

[Ohio Copper]

Originally Posted by Roering

(I assume you're kidding so I'll respond in kind.)

I blame the heavy trigger pull they have to put up with.

A lot of times I pray some people are joking...possibly even sarcastic. I'm proven wrong daily when I come on here.

[bug]

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

Let me just put my waders on and come on in here...

S*** happens, it's even worse when you have an active shooter in an area with a couple of hundred people. But let's not let that get in the way.

You have ricochet, you have background, you have people who panic and run right between the officers and the shooter. What more can you do?

You forgot the mouth breather, those are the ones who just stand there in disbelieve with their mouth open.

[BB61]

Originally Posted by txleapd

I don't think you realize how many cops buy their own duty weapons (and related accessories). I don't think the contention was about cops buying guns for personal use, as much as being able to get tools for the job.


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I do know and I don't care. LEO don't need any different tools for self-defense than I or my family need. If 7 or 15 is good enough for me it sure is for them. The point is that LEO are not special, different, or a protected class. They are American Citizens just like me. If they don't like it then perhaps they should get involved in the political process and get the law changed for ALL law abiding Americans.

[GunHo198]

Hmmm. Maybe start on online organization along the lines of Cops who support the 2nd Amendment.

MAKE YOUR VOICES HEARD!


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[Booker]

I have mixed views on the subject.

On one hand the police need the high power assault rifles....it takes a boatload of firepower to stop two Asian newspaper chuckers in a pick-up truck.

On the other hand, if a cop with all these weapons of war were to be ambushed, then the bad guys would have these deadly devices and that could be bad for the children.


All animals are equal, some are more equal than the others!

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

You have ricochet, you have background, you have people who panic and run right between the officers and the shooter. What more can you do?

Try not make make it 9-0 on the number of bystanders on the street shot by cops versus those shot by the perpetrator.

And yes, it was a joke based on a pathetic reality.

But, to reiterate my earlier point, it isn't necessarily that citizens should have the exact same weapons as law enforcement. It is that politicians buy LEO silence on anti-gun bills (and often even LEO support) because they provide exemptions for LEOs.

California has a Safe Handgun Roster because, in their infinite wisdom, our liberal legislature feels it important that only safe pistols should be sold in the state. Yet LEOs are exempt. Shouldn't law enforcement, above all others, be required to use a "safe" handgun since it is a fundamental tool for their job?

Pro-2A LEOs are a wonderful thing, but it is still police unions that tell politicians, "We'll support your ban, as long as it doesn't apply to us."

[Ohio Copper]

It's clear where you stand, sir. Good day to you.

[Ohio Copper]

[QUOTE=Gryff;20013132]Try not make make it 9-0 on the number of bystanders on the street shot by cops versus those shot by the perpetrator. As stated, given the number of bystanders of course there will be issues. Do we know that all of the rounds were from NYPD weapons and not the other shooter?

And yes, it was a joke based on a pathetic reality. A reality the rest of us live in and which you read in the security of your home.

But, to reiterate my earlier point, it isn't necessarily that citizens should have the exact same weapons as law enforcement. It is that politicians buy LEO silence on anti-gun bills (and often even LEO support) because they provide exemptions for LEOs. You do understand that a majority of all US police officers are prohibited from speaking to news media or endorsing certain political issues. My code of ethics states that I can vote and that's about it. Anything else I need written permission. It is what it is. The talking heads can do that, talk.

California has a Safe Handgun Roster because, in their infinite wisdom, our liberal legislature feels it important that only safe pistols should be sold in the state. Yet LEOs are exempt. Shouldn't law enforcement, above all others, be required to use a "safe" handgun since it is a fundamental tool for their job?
Move to Ohio, we are gun friendly.
Pro-2A LEOs are a wonderful thing, but it is still police unions that tell politicians, "We'll support your ban, as long as it doesn't apply to us."My union didn't and as RussP already added it is the heads of the departments and not the rank and file. See two paragraphs above for the reason why.I still go through the same forms, background checks and liability everyone else does when I purchase a weapon. A CCW holder in my state attends a 12 hour class where a qualifying shoot isn't required and they are given a license to carry a weapon. I am qualified semi-annualy. See the difference???[/QUOTE]

Five characters?

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

As stated, given the number of bystanders of course there will be issues. Do we know that all of the rounds were from NYPD weapons and not the other shooter?

Yes. Every bystander on the street was hit by shots fired by the NYPD officers. All nine victims.

Justifying nine wounded bystanders as collateral damage due to "You have ricochet, you have background, you have people who panic and run right between the officers and the shooter. What more can you do?"...well, it's clear where you stand.

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

A reality the rest of us live in and which you read in the security of your home.

I live in the same world as you. Except I don't have a badge and ability to carry a gun 24/7.

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

You do understand that a majority of all US police officers are prohibited from speaking to news media or endorsing certain political issues. My code of ethics states that I can vote and that's about it. Anything else I need written permission. It is what it is. The talking heads can do that, talk.

It's a real shame that they're limited from doing more about those LEO exemptions from which they benefit. Convenient, yet a shame.

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

Move to Ohio, we are gun friendly.

Sure. I'll just kiss my step-kids goodbye. It'll suck choosing between breaking my wife's heart by dragging her away from her children or losing her when she stays with her children, but either way, their father is not going to allow me to take his kids out of the state because I want to better exercise my gun rights (and in California, he'll probably win legally).

Originally Posted by Ohio Copper

"My union didn't and as RussP already added it is the heads of the departments and not the rank and file.

It isn't just the police chiefs. The police unions that endorse these measures eclipse those that oppose them. And sadly, there is a significant proportion of rank-and-file that feel that people who don't wear a badge shouldn't have guns (or at least modern pistols and sporting rifles). While this is not so much the case in rural areas, it is definitely a common theme among urban cops.

[Ohio Copper]

Originally Posted by Gryff

Yes. Every bystander on the street was hit by shots fired by the NYPD officers. All nine victims.

Justifying nine wounded bystanders as collateral damage due to "You have ricochet, you have background, you have people who panic and run right between the officers and the shooter. What more can you do?"...well, it's clear where you stand.



I live in the same world as you. Except I don't have a badge and ability to carry a gun 24/7.



It's a real shame that they're limited from doing more about those LEO exemptions from which they benefit. Convenient, yet a shame.



Sure. I'll just kiss my step-kids goodbye. It'll suck choosing between breaking my wife's heart by dragging her away from her children or losing her when she stays with her children, but either way, their father is not going to allow me to take his kids out of the state because I want to better exercise my gun rights (and in California, he'll probably win legally).




It isn't just the police chiefs. The police unions that endorse these measures eclipse those that oppose them. And sadly, there is a significant proportion of rank-and-file that feel that people who don't wear a badge shouldn't have guns (or at least modern pistols and sporting rifles). While this is not so much the case in rural areas, it is definitely a common theme among urban cops.

We are all bound by the decisions we make, isn't that right?



As for the last part, pure opinion or can you back that up? The majority of police on this board and every one of the cops I work with can care less. You have a right to carry a firearm, utilize it. I give more people with CCWs grief for NOT carrying, but I digress.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Gryff

Yes. Every bystander on the street was hit by shots fired by the NYPD officers. All nine victims.

Justifying nine wounded bystanders as collateral damage due to "You have ricochet, you have background, you have people who panic and run right between the officers and the shooter. What more can you do?"...well, it's clear where you stand.

I really doubt you could have done any better. In fact, I h***ard to guess, given what I see churned out of today's CCL mills, much, much worse.

I live in the same world as you. Except I don't have a badge and ability to carry a gun 24/7.

Wow. Really? So, you go around putting yourself in harms way every day? You rush in, when everyone is trampling everyone else to get out? Your risk your life routinely to save the lives of others, without stopping to think of yourself, only the situation at hand?

If you are doing all that, then kudos to you, sir.

It's a real shame that they're limited from doing more about those LEO exemptions from which they benefit. Convenient, yet a shame.

?

It isn't just the police chiefs. The police unions that endorse these measures eclipse those that oppose them. And sadly, there is a significant proportion of rank-and-file that feel that people who don't wear a badge shouldn't have guns (or at least modern pistols and sporting rifles). While this is not so much the case in rural areas, it is definitely a common theme among urban cops.

Let me put this bluntly. How the HELL would you know? From the comfort of your Monday Night Lazy boy recliner, how would you know? Because, some random loons told you this, so it must be gospel?

Let me clue you in. When it comes to big cities, it is your neighbors who voted in the morons who are all about neutoring the 2A.

Kindly find me one, just one LEO in the whole of this board who is anti-2A. I dare you.

[shadowhunter]

I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause. Some LEO's, state, and local governments think they are on a level above citizens, they are not. LEO's work for the citizens. In a perfect world none of these problems would exist, but this isn't a perfect world. I understand the reservations of certain companies to sell in certain states, sort of a quiet revolt. LEO's dont need more powerful guns than citizens, we are both on the same side. But we do need to ban together and crush criminals who use guns. If enough good citizens carried guns the cops jobs would be a lot easier. Instead most citizens carrying legal guns, if pulled over in a traffic stop are treated more like criminals than citizens.

[mntrpr]

Originally Posted by shadowhunter

I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause. Some LEO's, state, and local governments think they are on a level above citizens, they are not. LEO's work for the citizens. In a perfect world none of these problems would exist, but this isn't a perfect world. I understand the reservations of certain companies to sell in certain states, sort of a quiet revolt. LEO's dont need more powerful guns than citizens, we are both on the same side. But we do need to ban together and crush criminals who use guns. If enough good citizens carried guns the cops jobs would be a lot easier. Instead most citizens carrying legal guns, if pulled over in a traffic stop are treated more like criminals than citizens.

We don't need probable cause to pull you over in a motor vehicle.

And I'm all ears (figuratively speaking of course) of how most citizens are treated like criminals vs being a citizen if they are carrying.

[Ohio Copper]

Originally Posted by shadowhunter

I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause. Some LEO's, state, and local governments think they are on a level above citizens, they are not. LEO's work for the citizens. In a perfect world none of these problems would exist, but this isn't a perfect world. I understand the reservations of certain companies to sell in certain states, sort of a quiet revolt. LEO's dont need more powerful guns than citizens, we are both on the same side. But we do need to ban together and crush criminals who use guns. If enough good citizens carried guns the cops jobs would be a lot easier. Instead most citizens carrying legal guns, if pulled over in a traffic stop are treated more like criminals than citizens.

Not sure if serious?

[GumbyDammit]

Originally Posted by BB61

I do know and I don't care. LEO don't need any different tools for self-defense than I or my family need. If 7 or 15 is good enough for me it sure is for them. The point is that LEO are not special, different, or a protected class. They are American Citizens just like me. If they don't like it then perhaps they should get involved in the political process and get the law changed for ALL law abiding Americans.

We have HK 416's in our dept, do you think every Joe American should be able to have one of those too?? Yeah, guess what so do I, in fact first thing I said when I shot one was that everyone ought to take one home from the hospital at birth!

Quit acting like there is some imaginary chip on every cops shoulder that you need to knock off. It's bull****. I've sent no fewer than 25 letters to legislators of my own state and others where I vacation or have interests. Why would I do that??? Certainly not because I put myself above anyone else and think I'm part of some special class.

My job may entail things YOU consider special privileges (like shooting MG's or running code through red lights) but I consider them responsibilities, ones that come with significant personal risk and liability.

In the end I don't expect any preferential treatment or privilege. I support the constitution and founding principals of this country and speak up to defend them. So do the cops I work with and many others, to an extent you will never know. How many letters have you written or rallies have you attended, especially knowing that speaking out might put your job at risk if the wrong political hack gets offended??

Your imaginary line between us & our communities is in your head and only shows your own personal bias and lack of understanding of the men & women in law enforcement and why we do what we do.


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[GumbyDammit]

Originally Posted by mntrpr

And I'm all ears (figuratively speaking of course) of how most citizens are treated like criminals vs being a citizen if they are carrying.

I'm curious as well shadowhunter. Please enlighten us with your experiences and inside knowledge.


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[lawman800]

You holding your breath?

[CW Mock]

Jeeze, this is still going?


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[lawman800]

I like ice cream.

[Ohio Copper]

Originally Posted by lawman800

I like ice cream.

HAVE YOU SEEN MY BASEBALL?

[GumbyDammit]

Originally Posted by lawman800

You holding your breath?

Well.... I guess not anymore.


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[txleapd]

Originally Posted by shadowhunter

I have nothing but respect for good cops, I work around lots of LEO's but I know many that laugh at probable cause, saying that is an illusion. So in other words they pull people over all the time without probable cause.....

That's probably because the legal standard to detain someone (i.e. "pull them over") is Reasonable Suspicion, not Probable Cause.

PC is needed to search and arrest (make a 4th Amendment seizure), not stop...

There's an old saying... "You have to know it to hate." That means you have to understand something to truly be able to make a decision about it.

You are making decisions (and comments) on something you know nothing about.

Please stop.




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