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Old 02-15-2013, 22:16   #1
whitey4311
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Breech face problems

We are having some issues with out glocks among competition shooters. Most of us have been informed of the breech face failing and I did notice a small pit on mine some months back. Since then it has got much much worse and I need to contact glock. Seems older glocks are not affected and we cant help but to think quality has certainly taken a turn for the worse. I am pretty bummed out because I have my competition g21sf and an identical g21sf for ccw. Now I have lost interest in glock for the moment and dont trust the quality. of course if you dont shoot as much as we do then these issues will take years to surface but this gun has only 15k rounds in it. I could respect this wear and tear at 50k but my springfield TRP has 40k and only broke 1 extractor and 2 firing pin stops which are all consumable parts.

Whats the deal lately? And please I dont need the glock cheerleaders coming out with fists up defending their glock. If you dont have at least 10k rounds in your glock just dont bother getting all pissy and defending glock. I want to hear from the experienced people who shoot often and have a round count of 10k or higher.

General Glocking

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Last edited by whitey4311; 02-15-2013 at 22:52..
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:21   #2
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What ammo are you shooting? Ammo with lead free primers can cause issues like what is shown.
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:27   #3
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Does your serial number start with a "M" or "N" by chance?

True story about the primers as well.
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:32   #4
Made in Austria
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I have only shot ~ 3000 rounds through my Glock, but I posted anyway. Hope you don't mind.

Anyway, this looks like a ammo issue to me. Hot gases escape from the shell casing (between the primer and the casing) and plasma cut your breech face. What ammo are you shooting? Are you using small pistol primers?

Last edited by Made in Austria; 02-15-2013 at 22:50..
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:43   #5
Tiro Fijo
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
...we cant help but to think quality has certainly taken a turn for the worse...

Now I have lost interest in glock for the moment and dont trust the quality...

Whats the deal lately? And please I dont need the glock cheerleaders coming out with fists up defending their glock. If you dont have at least 10k rounds in your glock just dont bother with a reply. I want to hear from the experienced people who shoot often and have a round count of 10k or higher...

Quit using Russian primers and start using snap caps as well to dry fire.
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:47   #6
whitey4311
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I dont dry fire and I do shoot reloads. From the first obama scare most of us only were able to source Wolf primers. If that caused this I would be surprised for sure.

The other guys arent using Wolf primers and still have the same issue. More thoughts?

PS I dont mean to sound like a dik but anytime someone has a problem with their glock most members go nuts and come to find out they hardly shoot 1k rounds an entire year. In my opinion to have some solid advice there needs to be experience with this and I hope to hear from those people.
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:50   #7
whitey4311
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Originally Posted by mongo356 View Post
Does your serial number start with a "M" or "N" by chance?

True story about the primers as well.
Yes it starts with "N" my new 21sf on my ccw starts with "S". What can you tell me from this info?

Thanks
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Old 02-15-2013, 23:06   #8
Made in Austria
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..........

Last edited by Made in Austria; 02-15-2013 at 23:11..
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Old 02-15-2013, 23:18   #9
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The M & N is around when Glock made a change to the harder barrels (pentagon with a dot in the center on the proof mark). I can see the marks on the sides of the breech face. The older guns the barrels (pentagon w/o a dot in the center) were a touch softer and the barrel wore instead of the slide getting dimpled.

Oh and on the "S" series, Glock beveled the barrel (not sure when they started it) to keep those dimples from forming my "S" series gun looks like the older guns some wear but no dimples.


Here is a tidbit I picked up from someone who went to the advanced armorers class.

All Glocks meaning Gen 1, 2, 3 and 4 have always had cast/MIM locking blocks and extractors.

Gen 1, 2 ,3 had tool steel firing pin/strikers.
Current 3s and 4s now MIM firing pin/strikers.

Some firing pins both tool steel and MIM firing pins have been breaking when used with a lot of Winchester NT (non-Toxic). This ammo has a very small very HARD primer made in Pakistan. This primer is also well known for breaking a lot of decapping pins when it accidentally gets into your brass at the range when you attempt to decap the primer on your reloading press. The reason it breaks the tip of the firing pins is because it's actually almost as hard as the firing pin and on a Glock (and many other striker fired pistols) the firing pin stays forward in the slide during extraction and ejection and the case is dragged across the tip of the firing pin a little as the barrel unlocks. This is the reason why you see the drag/smear on primers from ammo shot in striker firing pistols like Glocks and Kahrs.

NT has a long way to go.

Glock has also seen some damage from Blazer aluminum case ammo as well. This is from flame cutting the firing pin and breach-face. This occurs because the aluminum case allows hot gases to escape around the primer which damage the firing pin and breach-face. This ammo is not recommended in Glocks.
FWIW I've shot a lot of that through Glocks with no problems. But our instructor shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through one of his Glocks and it actually even cause failure at the breach-face and the firing pin broke through it.



Not sure you will find any good answers here as I believe it's a relatively un-common problem. Best of luck that’s about all I can provide.

Last edited by mongo356; 02-15-2013 at 23:25..
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Old 02-15-2013, 23:19   #10
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Yes I pass the 10k round test. It seems some time ago Glock changed the hardening process used on the slides. Not Tennifer anymore. I think it is a nitriding process now since the older hardening process involved the use of some hazardous chemicals that enviros did not like. Not sure if it is better or worse but it was a change.
Just a thought.
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Old 02-15-2013, 23:28   #11
whitey4311
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Good info guys, thanks.

Reading on the 1911 forum there are some 1911s doing this as well from loose primer pockets. I dont have this issue on my 1911 and it must have ran about 10-15k of these russian Wolf primers. The fact that my friends have the same issue and they only use once fired brass and dont pick theirs up makes me think loose pockets might be BS.

I need to talk to some Gun Smiths and see what they have to say.

My reloads are with bullseye powder and I have used both moly lead and FMJ in the glock with no issues. My primers were the Wolf LP and I am down to the last 1k and have 40k Winchester on hand which I much prefer. I use brass and not aluminum or steel cases. I cant think of anything else but I would be very disappointed if I find out its my ammo. I cant see anything wrong with my reloads but perhaps there is one more thing to be learned that I dont know about. :(
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Old 02-15-2013, 23:30   #12
Tiro Fijo
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Originally Posted by mongo356 View Post
...This ammo has a very small very HARD primer made in Pakistan. This primer is also well known for breaking a lot of decapping pins when it accidentally gets into your brass at the range when you attempt to decap the primer on your reloading press. The reason it breaks the tip of the firing pins is because it's actually almost as hard as the firing pin and on a Glock (and many other striker fired pistols) the firing pin stays forward in the slide during extraction and ejection and the case is dragged across the tip of the firing pin a little as the barrel unlocks. This is the reason why you see the drag/smear on primers from ammo shot in striker firing pistols like Glocks and Kahrs...


Glock has also seen some damage from Blazer aluminum case ammo as well. This is from flame cutting the firing pin and breach-face. This occurs because the aluminum case allows hot gases to escape around the primer which damage the firing pin and breach-face. This ammo is not recommended in Glocks...

Pakistan? Do you have a verifiable source for that? I'm thinking big time BS here.

Also, you know Glock uses Blazer to test fire their guns, right?
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Old 02-15-2013, 23:49   #13
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Pakistan? Do you have a verifiable source for that? I'm thinking big time BS here.

Also, you know Glock uses Blazer to test fire their guns, right?
1- nope

2- big difference between saving $ on two test fire cases that will likely not damage anything and shooting several thousand rounds

like everything else on the internet- YMMV.

Last edited by mongo356; 02-15-2013 at 23:50..
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Old 02-16-2013, 00:05   #14
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It really looks like the primers you are using are too hard and the pressure of your loads is too low. If the pressure is too low and the primer is too hard, then the hard primer is not able to seal fully against the shell casing when the round goes off. I believe that's what causes those flame cuts on your breech face.

Sometimes the extreme heat of that gas escapes through the firing pin hole because it is looking for an path of least resistance. The gas gets even hotter when it meets fresh oxygen near the FP hole.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 02-16-2013 at 00:17..
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Old 02-16-2013, 00:29   #15
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I have 2 G19 Gen3's, one with about 8,000 rounds and the other has 4,000 thru it. I do not see anything on mine that looks like that.
I run reloads only and run them near max, also use CCI or Fed primers. I have tried Wolf/Tula primers and found they are not as reliable as CCI/Fed primers for me.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:30   #16
whitey4311
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I have 2 G19 Gen3's, one with about 8,000 rounds and the other has 4,000 thru it. I do not see anything on mine that looks like that.
I run reloads only and run them near max, also use CCI or Fed primers. I have tried Wolf/Tula primers and found they are not as reliable as CCI/Fed primers for me.
Yeah tell me about it. Its been painful getting through these darn Wolf primers. Bought 30k during last Obama scare.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:34   #17
whitey4311
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It really looks like the primers you are using are too hard and the pressure of your loads is too low. If the pressure is too low and the primer is too hard, then the hard primer is not able to seal fully against the shell casing when the round goes off. I believe that's what causes those flame cuts on your breech face.

Sometimes the extreme heat of that gas escapes through the firing pin hole because it is looking for an path of least resistance. The gas gets even hotter when it meets fresh oxygen near the FP hole.
My charge is 4.8grn bullseye which isnt exactly light. I chronoed them last week at 790fps.

Maybe the crappy Wolf primers dont expand well enough. They do seat much tighter though but maybe the magic is in the expansion and I would imagine Winchester to do better at this then the Russian primers. When I seat Winchester they just require very little pressure to seat. The wolf I had to drills holes in the concrete garage floor to bolt down the front legs of my press because I was getting high primers.

I am still not convinced its an ammo issue but I am looking into depriming before cleaning as to really clear out the primer pocket. This may be a painful but necessary step in the process to be sure the primer is seated well. The fact that 4 other friends have the same issues and all use their own methods and various brand products makes me doubt its an ammo problem. I will do more investigating at the upcoming matches.

The other thing is I question why the pitting is on just either side of the striker hole and not at top or bottom. If it were passing by into the stiker channel I surely would have had build up or damage in there to the plastic parts as well.

Last edited by whitey4311; 02-16-2013 at 06:46..
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:22   #18
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
I am still not convinced its an ammo issue but I am looking into depriming before cleaning as to really clear out the primer pocket. This may be a painful but necessary step in the process to be sure the primer is seated well.
Do not deprime before cleaning. The media will NOT clean the primer pocket and you will spend a lot of time clearing media out of the hole. The primer pocket will need to be cleaned as a separate step with a primer pocket reamer.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:13   #19
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If the striker nose showed evidence of etching I would say you are getting some pierced primers. However your striker nose looks to be pristine and polished. Your primer ring on the breach face shows little to no etching or pitting so leaking primer pockets are few and far between. The missing metal from the striker port looks like metal fracture not erosion. Metal fracture is a problem on sharp edges with nitriding steal, where it comes to a sharp corner or edge like in your port. This is why most corners have a radius on them even if very small. I would say this is a hardness problem and suggest sending your photo to Glock. Any other slide but a Glock and it could be bored out and a new striker/firing pin port pressed in.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:38   #20
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1.How many competition shooters are having this same problem ?

2. What other common factors do they all share that might contribute to this problem ? same model of Glock ? , same serial number range ? do they all reload ? any similar components used ? do any use commerical ammo and do they have this problem ? similar or different round count ?

3. Dont fool around with a gunsmith, just send it to Glock .
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