GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2013, 17:16   #51
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Sam, I've asked 4 simple questions. In the time it took you to respond you could've just answered them.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
To what end? I wasn't on the jury, my wishes don't make his acts excused or legal. So tell me the purpose of this intellectual exercise (word filter doesn't like the technical term for self-pleasure...).
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:17   #52
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,722


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
To what end? I wasn't on the jury, my wishes don't make his acts excused or legal. So tell me the purpose of this intellectual exercise (word filter doesn't like the technical term for self-pleasure...).
It doesn't filter out "obtuse" though


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:19   #53
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,771
So explain it to me. What's your goal? How does my opinion matter here?
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:20   #54
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,722


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
So explain it to me. What's your goal? How does my opinion matter here?
It doesn't according to AKSTICK. You're just a citizen.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:24   #55
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
It doesn't according to AKSTICK. You're just a citizen.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
In this case, he's right. Since I'm not 1 of 12, I'm 1 of 310,000,000.

Seriously, cert, why do you want to know?
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:33   #56
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Just so we're clear on where you stand:

1. Do you believe that citizens should have to go through the government and pay a tax to own or manufacture a full auto rifle?No.

2. Do you think the 4473 process should exist?I suppose I am okay with it if it gets shredded the minute I pick up my gun.

3. Do you think that someone should have to possess a federal license to sell guns as a business?Sure. Why not. Zoning and such.






.

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
In the end what difference does it make what I think?
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:39   #57
poikilotrm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
In the end what difference does it make what I think?
It makes a ton if you enforce laws you KNOW to be unConstitutional in spite of your oath.

Do you actively enforce CA state gun laws that fly in the face of the 2nd?
poikilotrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:47   #58
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by poikilotrm View Post
It makes a ton if you enforce laws you KNOW to be unConstitutional in spite of your oath.
First, neither CAcop nor I enforce federal laws. Second, who says they're unconstitutional? Was it someone whose opinion actually counts?
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:52   #59
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,582
Blog Entries: 1


That's the train I saw coming the whole time. CF just didn't want to say it yet.

That tired old line is just more of: "I want what I wants".

SSDD
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:55   #60
elsolo
Senior Member
 
elsolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: socal
Posts: 11,866
The responses in this thread is how I know that when the laws change, most gun owners will stand in line to turn their guns in.

Then they will get excited to notify the authorities the next week when discovered that their neighbor didn't turn his guns in.

"But he broke an unconstitutional law, screw him"
elsolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 18:17   #61
poikilotrm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
First, neither CAcop nor I enforce federal laws. Second, who says they're unconstitutional? Was it someone whose opinion actually counts?
You are bound by oath to uphold and defend the law, including Federal law. You are also bound to obey it.

You may not be primarily tasked with Fed law enforcement, but you will certainly act to arrest a Federal fugitive or someone with a Federal warrant, so your contention fails.

Secondly, I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. They will tell you in no uncertain terms what the Second Amendment is about. Since they are the guys who wrote the thing, and since the SCOTUS tries to follow their lead, I assure you, their opinions actually count.

Now, either answer my questions or take a seat and hold your tongue.
poikilotrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 18:39   #62
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,582
Blog Entries: 1


The Okie Corral
TBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 18:51   #63
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by elsolo View Post
The responses in this thread is how I know that when the laws change, most gun owners will stand in line to turn their guns in.

Then they will get excited to notify the authorities the next week when discovered that their neighbor didn't turn his guns in.

"But he broke an unconstitutional law, screw him"
You saw that too?
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 18:53   #64
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
"I don't think that law should exist"

That's what Charlie Manson said.
Hmm, comparing murder to a very well defined right (the definitions are within the Federalist papers...) doesn't make much sense.
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 18:55   #65
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by poikilotrm View Post
You are bound by oath to uphold and defend the law, including Federal law. You are also bound to obey it.

You may not be primarily tasked with Fed law enforcement, but you will certainly act to arrest a Federal fugitive or someone with a Federal warrant, so your contention fails.

Secondly, I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. They will tell you in no uncertain terms what the Second Amendment is about. Since they are the guys who wrote the thing, and since the SCOTUS tries to follow their lead, I assure you, their opinions actually count.

Now, either answer my questions or take a seat and hold your tongue.
You don't have a clue, do you?

I am in no way "bound by oath to uphold and defend the law, including Federal law." It's not in my oath, it's not in my commission. I am neither a Special nor a General Agent of the Federal Government.

I have read Federalist/Anti-Federalist. Interestingly, I saw neither statute nor case law in there. Maybe you could point that out to me. Here's a related point: Congress shall make no law concerning quite a few things in the 1st Amendment. Yet they have, and the President has signed them, and the courts have enforced them...even when the Authors were still alive. How is this possible? What part of "make no law" didn't they understand. Or maybe, just maybe, things aren't the way you think they are.

As to your last...go pound sand.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

Last edited by Sam Spade; 02-14-2013 at 19:00..
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 18:55   #66
Ruggles
Senior Member
 
Ruggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tejas
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
"I don't think that law should exist"

That's what Charlie Manson said.


Good point.

Some folks on here just see their view as the only view, all others are not only incorrect but held only but the uniformed and uneducated. Closed minded and rude often go hand in hand in some folks. If they can not "convince" you of their vast intellectual superiority over you they eventually resort to trying to brow beat you down with insults to "prove" their point. I see you have already found one of those folks on this thread

The numbskull referenced in the OP made so many stupid moves in this little adventure of his I am surprised he did not get caught earlier. He basically begged for this heap of crap to fall upon him.
Ruggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:03   #67
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by poikilotrm View Post
You are bound by oath to uphold and defend the law, including Federal law. You are also bound to obey it.

You may not be primarily tasked with Fed law enforcement, but you will certainly act to arrest a Federal fugitive or someone with a Federal warrant, so your contention fails.

Secondly, I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. They will tell you in no uncertain terms what the Second Amendment is about. Since they are the guys who wrote the thing, and since the SCOTUS tries to follow their lead, I assure you, their opinions actually count.

Now, either answer my questions or take a seat and hold your tongue.
What did my oath say?

I know you aren't two of the three that witnessed it.
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:11   #68
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
Hmm, comparing murder to a very well defined right (the definitions are within the Federalist papers...) doesn't make much sense.
If you ever find yourself in Court as a defendant, try telling the Judge, "I don't think the law is Constitutional, so I don't think I have to obey it", and see if you make any headlines with that brilliant defense.
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:14   #69
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by poikilotrm View Post
You are bound by oath to uphold and defend the law, including Federal law. You are also bound to obey it.

You may not be primarily tasked with Fed law enforcement, but you will certainly act to arrest a Federal fugitive or someone with a Federal warrant, so your contention fails.

I suspect you know nothing about the subject and pulled that out of your tailpipe.

I know that wasn't close to the oath I took over 30 years ago and I haven't heard that they let you re write it since.
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:16   #70
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
If you ever find yourself in Court as a defendant, try telling the Judge, "I don't think the law is Constitutional, so I don't think I have to obey it", and see if you make any headlines with that brilliant defense.
I can't remember where I read it or how old I was but there is a statement, a clause that pretty much states that if a law violates the Constitution we are not obligated to follow it. I am going through the founding documents again, reading, searching for that clause. If I find it I'll be sure to post it.
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:17   #71
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,870


Actually the US has successfully argued before the Supreme Court of the US that the gun describe is exactly what is protected by the 2nd Amendment. It is unfortunate that he had less than stellar lawyers.

United States v. Miller involved a criminal prosecution under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA).

Defendants Miller and Layton filed challenged the National Firearms Act as an unconstitutional violation of the Second Amendment. District Court Justice Heartsill Ragon accepted the claim and dismissed the indictment, stating, "The court is of the opinion that this section is invalid in that it violates the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, U.S.C.A., providing, 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'" Justice Ragon provided no further explanation of his reasons.

The U.S Government appealed the decision and on March 30, 1939, the U.S. Supreme Court heard the case. Attorneys for the United States argued four points:
1.The NFA is intended as a revenue-collecting measure and therefore within the authority of the Department of the Treasury.
2.The defendants transported the shotgun from Oklahoma to Arkansas, and therefore used it in interstate commerce.
3.The Second Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia.
4.The "double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230" was never used in any militia organization.



So since a select fire AR-15 is what the military uses, it falls into exactly what the US government says is protected by the 2nd amendment.

That said, I do not plan to be a test case, as I do not see full auto as practical. Not that I would not like to have one if they were cheaper and ammo was cheaper and I had a lot more money to enjoy them.

Last edited by racerford; 02-14-2013 at 19:20..
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:28   #72
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
I can't remember where I read it or how old I was but there is a statement, a clause that pretty much states that if a law violates the Constitution we are not obligated to follow it. I am going through the founding documents again, reading, searching for that clause. If I find it I'll be sure to post it.
Yes, that is wonderful, why don't we all just break every law that we decide, in our expert opinion, isn't Constitutional and we can all say, "Glock 20 10mm told me I could"

countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:40   #73
Ruggles
Senior Member
 
Ruggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tejas
Posts: 8,397
Cool so we can now determine for ourselves if a law is constitutional or not and thus if we have to obey it? That should make for a nice civilized society
Ruggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:50   #74
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,582
Blog Entries: 1


I'm surprised our system doesn't have avenue to address/decide if a law is unconstitutional... The Okie Corral
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 20:01   #75
Ruggles
Senior Member
 
Ruggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tejas
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
I'm surprised our system doesn't have avenue to address/decide if a law is unconstitutional... The Okie Corral
Yeah you think the Founders would have thought of something like that as they formed our country huh?

Last edited by Ruggles; 02-14-2013 at 20:02..
Ruggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:59.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,221
385 Members
836 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42