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Old 02-25-2013, 11:26   #41
arkdweller22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post

$0.02
Great information on "real world" lethal force encounters.
Good post, and at least $0.05.

Thank you.


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Old 02-25-2013, 12:04   #42
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:07   #43
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Amazing stuff here. So, what I take away from these real-life situations/testimonials is:
(1) Know how to use your weapon effectively,
(2) Don't assume anything, and
(3) Don't stop using your weapon until the BG is CLEARLY no longer a threat.
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Old 02-25-2013, 14:56   #44
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Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
Amazing stuff here. So, what I take away from these real-life situations/testimonials is:
(1) Know how to use your weapon effectively,
(2) Don't assume anything, and
(3) Don't stop using your weapon until the BG is CLEARLY no longer a threat.
^^^ This. A wise agent once told me a tidbit of advice a long time ago, and I live by it to this day:

"The BG is still a threat until he is in handcuffs or his head is detached from his body."
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Old 02-25-2013, 17:05   #45
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"The BG is still a threat until he is in handcuffs or his head is detached from his body."
Now that quote must be worth at least $.25!
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Old 02-27-2013, 17:17   #46
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My mistake I was responding t
Shooting someone in the pelvic girdle would most likely stop their forward motion. As I think about it that may be the best way to physically "stop" someone. They are unlikely to be incapacitated or made unconscious by the wound -- they could keep shooting at you. A pelvic fracture can lead to a slow bleed that could lead to unconsciousness over maybe an hour's time. So, even if they stop they're still a threat.

A lung shot is nice b/c a deflated lung is both painful and extremely frightening. It causes the sensation of suffocation and really makes the victim stop thinking about anything else.
My understanding is that hitting pelvic bones with a bullet could be the absolutely most painful area to be hit or one of them but that being said someone requiring a shot to the pelvis might not feel the pain but breaking it will stop forward movement. Any solid shot could cause a person to go unconscious to be honest as well.

Not bringing the word terminal into this conversation (other than right there) with just getting someone to stop moving toward you this drill is solid to practice. Its a larger target, does not bob around like someones head and should be as easy to hit as COM hits.

But shooting until the threat ends would be the most important thing to teach a shooter that does not get to shoot as often as they might want to or should.
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Old 02-27-2013, 19:00   #47
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Handgun rounds are - ineffective fight stoppers!

Have a plan A, then have plan B ready for when your chosen "magical/one-shot stopper/ultimate defensive round/etc.." does not work as advertised.

My plan A: 2-4 accurate/quick rounds to center mass, if that has not stopped the threat, plan B is a head zone shot.

This of course is subject to change - after all, gunfights do not always go as we plan.
I wouldn't say ineffective, less effective, but not ineffective. It's why smart gun owners train & practice. Use enough gun, 9mm & up, a good JHP, shoot until the threat is down. At 20ft, gun up, I would expect 3-4 accurate shots could be delivered in that 1.5sec run.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:52   #48
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Always train for failure to stop which is defined as after 2-3 solid torso shots the BG doesn't stop the activity that caused you to shoot him. All of the service calibers work or fail about the same. When you have a failure to stop this must be recognized instantly and alternate targets sought even quicker. Continuing to pump bullets into this attacker's chest may then have little short term effect and will get you killed.

The ABC Drill for Failure To Stop: On your target mark an "A" on the head, "B" center of chest, and "C" on each hip area.
"A" = All Gone
"B" = Body Mass
"C" = Cancel

Start shooting 2-3 rounds center of chest. Envision some failure to stop scenarios and then follow up with shots to the head and/or hips. Breaking the pelvic girdle can be very effective when being charged with an impact/edged weapon. Practice this drill and it will come through for you if needed. Remain safe. Bill
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:10   #49
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I've read the pelvic girdle should be very effective at stopping. You have the base of the spine, and a few nice arteries and veins for either the projectile or bone fragments to hit. Not to mention a high chance of mechanically slowing someone down.

I always go back to deer hunting. I've had a double lung/heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader that ran a ways before realizing she was dead.

Any link to a news story for this?
I suffered a broken pelvis in a fall off a ladder, it was a fairly mild break, but let me tell you it is flipping impossible to move your legs when the pelvis is broken and god awful painful to boot. Stopping a BG charge with pelvis hits does not depend on blood loss, what you do is take the support structure out from under them.

Before the fall I figured on 2 to the chest then go for the head. After laying in bed nearly a week before being able to even walk to the bathroom I rethought that. The main interest is stopping the charge not killing, I decided 2 to the chest then a mag dump in the pelvis.

I have a video titled "DEADLY EFFECTS; What bullets do to bodies" featuring Dr Fackler head of the army's wound ballistics laboratory at the time (late 70s) VERY eye opening.

Last edited by F350; 02-28-2013 at 10:14..
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:58   #50
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Homeowner shoots from 20 or so feet away and doesn't know he hit the intruder;
If he's made the decision that his life is threatened, keep shooting until you've stopped the threat. That's why God made semi-auto handguns...
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:00   #51
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In think it is always easy to state, "shoot here, shoot there. Fill them with lead till they stop" Especially from people that have not consistently trained high stress defense.
Its easy to say but unless you train very frequently, it will not always go as planned.
What do you think the percentage of gun owners is that train at least weekly for high stress situations? Beats me but I bet I am safe in saying very few.
this is the reason we hear stories like this. He shot. froze. tunnel vision. Delayed. Unsure. ect ect.
Responsible gun owners should train!!! Over and over.
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Old 03-06-2013, 18:21   #52
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Back in the 80's an SAS team tracked down and executed a scumbag IRA bomber.

The scumbag was hit something like 27 times. During the enquirey, the shooter was asked why he shot the scumbag 27 times - his reply? "because I ran out of bullets"
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Old 03-06-2013, 19:24   #53
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Gun shots probably feel like punches.
It won't stop someone determined.
Not unless you hit the spinal cord or brain .


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Old 03-06-2013, 19:29   #54
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That's why a 12 gauge with #2's or larger is better. Why use a pea shooter when a howitzer is available?
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Old 03-07-2013, 14:05   #55
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Wow... A .40 caliber gun, by the way.Toxicology reports are not in yet, I hear. Wow.
That's why my HD weapon of choice is AR15 and Saiga12.
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Old 03-07-2013, 14:53   #56
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I have to ask but why the FMJ outside?
I only use FMJ's at the range but always carry loaded with HP's.
If the HPs prematurely expand, you could get the 1" of penetration that SevenSixtyTwo linked to, I believe. My HD magazines alternate between HP and FMJ - could be wrong, but sounds good in my head.
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Old 03-07-2013, 15:15   #57
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People do not react like they do in the movies and from how you told the story home owner do not get good hits on perp
so his markmanship was lacking with hit in the stomach. One perp took 9 hits to the stomach threw the weapon on his truck tolded the deputy he quit and walked over to the ambulance.
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Old 03-07-2013, 15:30   #58
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For home defense like the OP, a short barrel shotgun has to be the most effective weapon. A 12 gauge COM blast would stop most attacks. If necessary, a second blast aimed at the upper body would seal the deal.

While I've read about lots of cases where handgun stopping power wasn't enough, I don't think I've heard of incidents where a shotgun at close quarters failed to get the job done.

I'm with dsa on this one, but I might choose #4 shot.

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Old 03-07-2013, 16:05   #59
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And remember----we don't need more than 10 rounds or 7 if you are in New York.
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Old 03-07-2013, 17:53   #60
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For home defense like the OP, a short barrel shotgun has to be the most effective weapon. A 12 gauge COM blast would stop most attacks. If necessary, a second blast aimed at the upper body would seal the deal.

While I've read about lots of cases where handgun stopping power wasn't enough, I don't think I've heard of incidents where a shotgun at close quarters failed to get the job done.

I'm with dsa on this one, but I might choose #4 shot.
And according to Mr. Biden, all you have to to is shoot it out the window...
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