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Old 02-15-2013, 15:55   #21
Orive 8
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Handgun rounds are - ineffective fight stoppers!

Have a plan A, then have plan B ready for when your chosen "magical/one-shot stopper/ultimate defensive round/etc.." does not work as advertised.

My plan A: 2-4 accurate/quick rounds to center mass, if that has not stopped the threat, plan B is a head zone shot.

This of course is subject to change - after all, gunfights do not always go as we plan.
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Old 02-15-2013, 16:23   #22
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I assume the headshots came last - his skull was mostly crushed. He charged and the officers started backing and shooting - they hit him 8 of 10 shots - and the diagrams showed that by the time hit the ground he had passed where they started shooting. I was their defense attorney when the family sued - I have a complete copy of the investigation, with the hundreds of pictures, statements, diagrams, etc.
In keeping the privacy of your client intact I would love to see Xrays of the shooting. I study terminal ballistics and try to see all I can.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:07   #23
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Forty caliber might sting a little. The only reason for handguns is portability. They don't have stopping power. A 12g is a far better HD firearm.
This link is very graphic but points out the reality of handgun effectiveness. The dead perp had only a trace amount of MJ in his system.

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachment...FBIAcademy.pdf
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:40   #24
green marauder
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After reading this Im starting to think leave the gun(s) in the safe and start carrying my Kukri, its got to be hard to keep attacking with limbs missing or bowls hanging down the front of you


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Old 02-16-2013, 07:46   #25
DevilDocsGlocks
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Double Tap....Hollow points for In the home defense. Rotate with FMJ for outside the home.
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Old 02-17-2013, 03:14   #26
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
That's why NY enacted the 7 round rule. You've got to put a limit on how many rounds a civilian can put into an attacker to make it a little more fair.
That is a good one.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:12   #27
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I took a tactical handgun class where the instructor once was a military police and indicated he ran into this problem several times with people that was high on pcp. He said 2 rounds in the pelvic region stopped 'em all in their tracks.

I hope I never have to find out if it works.

He had us do drills 2 rounds center mass & 2 rounds pelvic region.
The chest or upper abdomen are anatomically much more likely to stop someone. Lungs, heart, liver, and spleen bleed more than anything in the pelvis.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:46   #28
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The chest or upper abdomen are anatomically much more likely to stop someone. Lungs, heart, liver, and spleen bleed more than anything in the pelvis.
I've read the pelvic girdle should be very effective at stopping. You have the base of the spine, and a few nice arteries and veins for either the projectile or bone fragments to hit. Not to mention a high chance of mechanically slowing someone down.

I always go back to deer hunting. I've had a double lung/heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader that ran a ways before realizing she was dead.

Any link to a news story for this?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:44   #29
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Originally Posted by DevilDocsGlocks View Post
Double Tap....Hollow points for In the home defense. Rotate with FMJ for outside the home.
I have to ask but why the FMJ outside?
I only use FMJ's at the range but always carry loaded with HP's.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:11   #30
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Originally Posted by TX OMFS View Post
The chest or upper abdomen are anatomically much more likely to stop someone. Lungs, heart, liver, and spleen bleed more than anything in the pelvis.
Training around shooting the pelvis area is not by design to cause them to bleed out or hit major organs. It was designed to take the legs out from under the person. If you shatter pelvic bones the legs can't function as the legs will no longer be able to rotate in the sockets so to say thus the person goes down and stops moving forward.

I can't remember the actual name of the training but its called the mozzembi drill or something like but was designed around a particular incident of enemies attacking that were high on drugs preventing bullets into the COM from stopping attacks unless spine was struck.

By striking the pelvic area they stopped the forward movement of the attackers thus preventing good guys from being chopped up with large knives.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:36   #31
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
Training around shooting the pelvis area is not by design to cause them to bleed out or hit major organs. It was designed to take the legs out from under the person. If you shatter pelvic bones the legs can't function as the legs will no longer be able to rotate in the sockets so to say thus the person goes down and stops moving forward.

I can't remember the actual name of the training but its called the mozzembi drill or something like but was designed around a particular incident of enemies attacking that were high on drugs preventing bullets into the COM from stopping attacks unless spine was struck.

By striking the pelvic area they stopped the forward movement of the attackers thus preventing good guys from being chopped up with large knives.
You're correct about the reasoning behind the drill. It's not to hit blood vessels but to try to mechanically incapacitate your attacker by shattering the pelvis or hip.
It's called the Mozambique drill. Originally 2 to COM, 1 to the head. When the head is not "available" you go to the pelvis.

It was made popular by a Rhodesian mercenary named Mike Rousseau. He apparently shot a guerrilla armed with an AK using a Hi-Power in this fashion (2 COM, 1 head), thus surviving the encounter.


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Old 02-22-2013, 13:52   #32
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Originally Posted by edcrosbys View Post
I've read the pelvic girdle should be very effective at stopping. You have the base of the spine, and a few nice arteries and veins for either the projectile or bone fragments to hit. Not to mention a high chance of mechanically slowing someone down.

I always go back to deer hunting. I've had a double lung/heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader that ran a ways before realizing she was dead.

Any link to a news story for this?
My mistake I was responding to the post about shooting in the pelvic region. The pelvis is the cavity surrounded by the pelvic girdle. The pelvis itself doesn't have much in the way of vital structures.

Shooting someone in the pelvic girdle would most likely stop their forward motion. As I think about it that may be the best way to physically "stop" someone. They are unlikely to be incapacitated or made unconscious by the wound -- they could keep shooting at you. A pelvic fracture can lead to a slow bleed that could lead to unconsciousness over maybe an hour's time. So, even if they stop they're still a threat.

A shot to the liver or spleen will make someone bleed out but over several minutes and may not be particularly effective at stopping them until they pass out after several minutes.

A shot to the lungs and/or heart would render somone unconscious and kill faster than abdominal organ damage but may not stop their forward progress as fast as a pelvic shot.

The brain is the best place to stop everything.

A lung shot is nice b/c a deflated lung is both painful and extremely frightening. It causes the sensation of suffocation and really makes the victim stop thinking about anything else.

No links. I'm a surgeon who has treated and seen lots of trauma and GSW's. In summary, the 2 COM and 1 head or pelvis seems like a good drill to stop and incapacitate someone.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:01   #33
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TX OMFS -

Thanks for the info. I'm more inclined to believe you're info than what I've read elsewhere.

I was more looking for a link to the original story. I know quite a few folks that think bullets are magical and stop everything instantly. I've used some of the older stories as proof, but this one hits home as being a situation they could easily see themselves in.

Thanks!
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:11   #34
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I have heard some horrible stories including a fella that was shot dozens of times with handguns, once in the neck with a 12g slug and once through the face with 12g slug and stayed on his feet. One of the officers was reported saying "when he turned to face me I could see daylight through his head."
Before or after he was shot in the head?


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Old 02-23-2013, 13:33   #35
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After reading this Im starting to think leave the gun(s) in the safe and start carrying my Kukri, its got to be hard to keep attacking with limbs missing or bowls hanging down the front of you


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Worked well for the Gurkahs.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:42   #36
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There is no magic solution, people simply need to learn how to fight, bring their warrior self to the fight and stop watching movies/cop dramas for their tactics.
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:31   #37
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There is no magic solution, people simply need to learn how to fight, bring their warrior self to the fight and stop watching movies/cop dramas for their tactics.
Nicely concise, lucid & direct.
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Old 02-24-2013, 19:28   #38
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if someone didn't go down after a few COM shots, i'd assume kevlar and aim a bit higher

assuming i'd even have a conscious thought going through my head at that moment
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:50   #39
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This fat punk withstood FIVE (5) COM shots and still alive now. The Honorable Officer took one well placed 22lr shot and died.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates

May be we should not use the wrong ammo!


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Old 02-25-2013, 10:20   #40
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Originally Posted by arkdweller22 View Post
You're correct about the reasoning behind the drill. It's not to hit blood vessels but to try to mechanically incapacitate your attacker by shattering the pelvis or hip.
It's called the Mozambique drill. Originally 2 to COM, 1 to the head. When the head is not "available" you go to the pelvis.
My agency (federal) is teaching the pelvis shot as the "new and improved" version of the Mozambique Drill (aka, the body armor drill). The reasoning is that the head is fairly small and very mobile, making it hard to hit. The pelvis is larger, and less susceptible to quick "twitchy" movements like the head is, thus making it easier to hit. (combine this with the tendency of many shooters to flinch and "throw" rounds low, it makes a hit there even more likely). Hitting the pelvis would take out the BGs center of movement, and while he still may be able to shoot at you, he will most likely be unable to advance on you (and will now be a stationary target).

Plus, if you miss the pelvis, one still might hit a femoral artery which would lead to unconsciousness in about 10 seconds, or hit a femur which would stop movement like a pelvis hit.

Part of this change to our training resulted from real-world data, as my agency has one of the highest rates of on-duty shootings of any LE agency. Some of the data that influenced this change, I have some first- and second-hand knowledge of...

A comment on stopping power:

I've been shot at, and while I haven't shot anybody I've had the opportunity to have been on duty during a shooting that was narrated "play by play style" over the radio by our helicopter, as well as having seen a second shooting by our agency that was captured on surveillance camera. I've also personally known two agents who have killed a suspect in an on duty shooting, two agents who were shot to death on duty, one agent shot on duty and survived, and a multitude of agents who shot at a BG but the BG survived. Here's what I've gleaned from this info...

-The "play by play" narrated shooting involved the BG being shot with an M4 carbine at rock-throwing distance. One shot, direct to the sternum. The agent who pulled the trigger described firing and seeing the guy look at him in disbelief. The BG then looked down at his chest, seemingly realizing in slow motion that he had been shot. He then slowly fell backward from the fence he was sitting on. Helo pilot described the guy getting up and running away, but as he ran he began to stagger. He soon fell. Got back up, fell again. Eventually began to crawl. His cohorts tried to help carry him, but eventually the pilot described the guy going limp and his buddies dropping him. Dude made it 100 yards. I listened to this on the radio as it unfolded, and the whole thing took 30 seconds to a full minute from shot fired to BG being dead. Autopsy said the .223 had exploded his heart, and he was running on pure adrenaline for the minute after he'd been shot. If he had had a gun, he would have been able to continue to do plenty of damage in the time before he died. http://www.policeone.com/border-patr...exican-border/

Another agent while beginning his shift stopped off at the circle K to get some snacks, walked in there in "condition white". Interrupted a robbery in progress. Crap went sideways, BGs fled the store, he gave chase. BGs ended up in a getaway car, and tried to run the agent down. Agent emptied his mag into the windshield, killed the driver. I believe one or more was a headshot. Driver was DRT. http://www.yumasun.com/news/theft-46...oplifting.html

Third shooting was caught on camera. Looked to be about 10 feet distance. Agent had a 12 guage 870, unknown if slug or buckshot. BG picked up a weapon (rock) and cocked his arm back to bash the agent's head in with it. Agent fires one shot from the 12 guage, BG drops to the ground instantly like a marionette puppet that had its strings cut. News link, includes video of the shooting: http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/new...bn20video.html

* I know that in that video it says the shooting is with an M4 (which it may well be) but all the FIs and other "gun people" at my station (myself included) think it was actually the 870. We never got any official info on what longarm was used, so it COULD have been either an M4 or an 870, but I have no official info regarding that, so I'm going to go with my observations and my gut and say 870.

Next shooting was where an agent I knew and had worked with was killed. You might recognize the name. Agents fired on armed BGs with a "beanbag" shotgun. BGs returned fire with real bullets. Agent hit in the back, severed his spinal column and aorta. Died slowly enough to know what was happening. http://abcnews.go.com/US/border-patr...ry?id=12401948

Last shooting was another one that made national headlines. One agent shot dead, another wounded (upper leg shot). The agent killed recieved one shot to the face, dead instantly. Wounded agent hit in the leg bled badly but survived. He was immobilized, and was only able to crawl/drag himself. It was over an hour before help arrived (bullet is still in his buttock). http://azstarnet.com/news/local/bord...accef93a0.html


All of the agents involved in the shootings, except the Calexico shooting with the video who I do not know, and the agent wounded in the leg who I knew by name only, are guys I know/knew personally and have worked with closely. You know, just in case some troll feels like talking smack. I feel privileged to call these guys my friends, and for each of them, if they were lucky enough to escape with their lives, their lives were never the same again. FWIW.

My conclusions: taking out the CNS is a sure way to stop the threat. COM shot will usually stop the threat (possibly immediately if you hit the spinal column OR cause enough damage via a slug or multiple hits), but it's possible that it may take so long to stop the threat that you get killed anyway. Pelvis/leg shots WILL immobilize the target, but WILL NOT stop the threat. $0.02

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