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Old 02-09-2013, 14:27   #1
24601
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bullet set back

so recently i was bored and wanted try some loads from the smaller companies (underwood, buffalo bore, double tap)....i had ordered a box of 9mm 124gr +P (24E) and a box of .357sig 125gr (25A) from buffalo bore to start out...

i went to the range and due to time constraints and my forgetting to try the new ammo (in both the g19 and the G32C) until it was time to leave, i only managed to pop off a few shots of each caliber....it went bang each time in each gun so that was good enough for me at the time.....i knew i would be heading out to the range again within the week, so i knew i would test more then....

so i thoroughly cleaned both guns (the feed ramps were clean) when i got home and i loaded up the buffalo bore rounds into each gun....popped in the mags and power stroked the slides over the top as i usually do....thought nothing of it....a week later, i decided to do some trigger work on the G19....i dropped the mag and ejected a round...(i always check for bullet set back and i never re-chamber the same rounds).....i noticed that the bullet was set back a tiny bit, but i didn't have my calipers available at the time....i snapped a pic, emailed the owner and asked him about bullet set back....he responded by saying that all bullets will naturally set back a tiny amount and after examining my pics, he said i have nothing to worry about....well, ok....

a few more days go by and i decide to do some trigger work on the G32C....i drop the mag and eject a round....the round that popped out was badly set back (it had only been chambered ONCE)....so i took measurements and took pics and emailed Tim again....now keep in mind that I had already popped off a few rounds of each so I didn't feel justified in asking for A: a refund, or B: another box of replacements....i honestly wanted to see what they would say about it and see if they offered any solutions....$30+ for 20 rounds of 357sig is a lot more expensive than buying my usual boxes of 50 rounds of winchester ranger T or federal HSTs.....

Tim responded professionally and although he wasn't rude about anything, he really didn't seem too concerned either.....i have pasted his email response below.....as i said, i don't feel right asking for a refund or replacement due to the fact that i've shot a few rounds, but having these setback issues coupled with his response of "I don't know what is going on with Glock..." and "the ammo is working great in my SIG pistol" seems like he really doesn't care about what could have happened had i fired that 357 round through my Glock.....


OK, I just tested a bunch or our 357 SIG ammo in my SIG 229. If fed wonderfully and did not experience any set back whatsoever. So, I don't know what is going on with Glock, but it is not happening with SIG, pistols who
happen to be the designers and name safe of the cartridge. I do not have a Glock here chambered in 357 SIG to test, but the ammo is working great in my SIG pistol.

Tim


Has anyone else has bad experiences with buffalo bore such as set back issues?

I will not be buying anything else from them in the future and i'm hoping that maybe others will be a bit more cautious when using their rounds.....i'm not trying to say all their ammo is crap as i'm sure i just got a bad batch.....we live in an imperfect world.....but i did want to share my experience with people on this forum....

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Old 02-09-2013, 14:39   #2
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That is a lot of setback.

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Old 02-09-2013, 14:56   #3
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WOW......Won't be picking up any BB 357 Sig. Agree with you and Revvv, that is excessive.
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Old 02-09-2013, 19:13   #4
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That should never happen with one chambering. That's dangerous.
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Old 02-09-2013, 19:24   #5
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I would not shoot it and that's not normal.
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Old 02-09-2013, 21:02   #6
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I rechamber 2 or 3 times the same round with my 165gr Golden Sabers and no set back at all measured with a
didgital caliper.

That's bad when you can see it with the naked eye.
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Old 02-09-2013, 21:03   #7
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I rechamber 2 or 3 times the same round with my 165gr Golden Sabers and no set back at all measured with a
digital caliper.

That's bad when you can see it with the naked eye.
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Old 02-10-2013, 00:51   #8
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Any bullet setback greater than 0.060" is going to raise pressures. In already max pressure ammo, like 40 & 357sig, it will be dangerous levels. When it gets to the point you have there, pressures may actaully decrease a bit as there is not longer any neck tension. Either are unsafe to shoot. In some calibers, setback is going to ahppen after rechambering a round 3-4 times & has to be watched. When your roudns are 1/16" shorter than factory, time to put them in the nogo box & break them down for reloading or disposal. The 357sig is one fo the worst offenders, so watch the ammo closely. It should NOT IMO, happen after one chambering. They are not doing something right if that is happening to new factory ammo.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:25   #9
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I have about 10 of Tim's .357 sig rounds that look just like yours. bullet flops back and forth in the case. I kept them to pull the gold dot for reloading purposes. Mine are a couple years old so i was hoping that the problem was solved by now. Sucks cause i love his ammo, just will not buy in that caliber anymore i guess.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:34   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Any bullet setback greater than 0.060" is going to raise pressures. In already max pressure ammo, like 40 & 357sig, it will be dangerous levels. When it gets to the point you have there, pressures may actaully decrease a bit as there is not longer any neck tension. Either are unsafe to shoot. In some calibers, setback is going to ahppen after rechambering a round 3-4 times & has to be watched. When your roudns are 1/16" shorter than factory, time to put them in the nogo box & break them down for reloading or disposal. The 357sig is one fo the worst offenders, so watch the ammo closely. It should NOT IMO, happen after one chambering. They are not doing something right if that is happening to new factory ammo.
I wonder if they could 'fix' the issue by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp?
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:43   #11
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Wow, that is a lot of bullet setback.
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Old 02-10-2013, 13:32   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
I wonder if they could 'fix' the issue by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp?

well, judging by his email response to me and what blackbmw said, i'm thinking they just don't care....
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Old 02-10-2013, 15:14   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
I wonder if they could 'fix' the issue by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp?
Great question . . . . .
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Old 02-10-2013, 17:12   #14
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well, judging by his email response to me and what blackbmw said, i'm thinking they just don't care....
Yeah, I get it. You'd think that their interest in satisfying you and being motivated to find a solution to the problem would go hand-in-hand.

S'pose not....
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Old 02-11-2013, 00:16   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
I wonder if they could 'fix' the issue by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp?
Taper crimp does NOT hold the bullet, by desgn it can not. Think about how taper crimp works; it crimps form the base forward, so the bullet is still free top move to the rear. No, It's proper sizing & bullet fit that creates proper neck tension. The crimp only finishes off the round. Thicker brass, larger bullet, either will increase neck tension.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:21   #16
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Maybe I missed it but Im just curious...how do you dispose of it properly?

Who could you take it to?
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:24   #17
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Maybe I missed it but Im just curious...how do you dispose of it properly?

Who could you take it to?

it's sitting on my desk as a reminder not to buy their products anymore ha...
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Old 02-11-2013, 16:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
I wonder if they could 'fix' the issue by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Taper crimp does NOT hold the bullet, by desgn it can not. Think about how taper crimp works; it crimps form the base forward, so the bullet is still free top move to the rear. No, It's proper sizing & bullet fit that creates proper neck tension. The crimp only finishes off the round. Thicker brass, larger bullet, either will increase neck tension.
I know- that why I said "by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp"...
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Old 02-11-2013, 16:26   #19
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I wouldn't even try to shoot that.
It seem to me
that the 357 Sig round is particularly susceptible to bullet set back.
I try to not chamber the same round twice.
And always closely inspect my 357 Sig ammo as I load mags.
I've had occasional quality control issues even with LE 357 Sig ammo.

I love 357 Sig.
But beyond cost and availability.
Bullet Set Back and Quality Control has been the dirty little secret
with the caliber for me.

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Old 02-11-2013, 16:56   #20
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Quote:
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I know- that why I said "by sizing the neck a little tighter and going with a slightly more aggressive taper crimp"...
The crimp comment is what is wrong. Over crimp, you can actually DECREASE neck tension as the case springs away from the bullet.
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Old 02-11-2013, 17:06   #21
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WOW!

KB waiting to happen! It's a good thing you caught it!
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Old 02-11-2013, 17:19   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The crimp comment is what is wrong. Over crimp, you can actually DECREASE neck tension as the case springs away from the bullet.
Who said anything about over-crimping?

I don't know where you got that. I certainly never said that they should "over crimp" anything.

If you want to respond to something I wrote that's fine, but don't attribute things to me that I never said. It is rude and you know better than that.
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Old 02-11-2013, 18:36   #23
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Post a pic of the HP cavity of the bullet.

I bet those BB loads in the pic are using the 9mm Gold Dot bullet and not the .357sig Gold Dot bullet. Profile is different on the .357sig GD as well as the actual HP cavity.

If you want a very good .357sig load that can be chambered many times with no setback, get some Federal HST. Feeds silky smooth.

Quote:
Maybe I missed it but Im just curious...how do you dispose of it properly?

Who could you take it to?
My setback roads I either break up for components or knock the bullet out past correct OAl with my bullet puller and then seat/crimp the bullet to proper depth. Then shoot it at the range.

Last edited by dkf; 02-11-2013 at 18:40..
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:13   #24
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Quote:
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Post a pic of the HP cavity of the bullet.

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Old 02-12-2013, 09:33   #25
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Looks like a 9mm 124gr Gold Dot to me, the cavity is too deep to be a 125gr 357 Sig Gold Dot, plus the profile is different.
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